The Irish language is failing.

Dughorm · 09-06-2015 08:03PM

K4t wrote: »

Unfortunate is the word I'd use. That time being immersed in Irish would have been better utilized perfecting his English, and/or a European language such as French or German.

Well his family decided to move to Ireland and wanted him to be well versed in both our country's languages, not unfortunate at all...

With such a good attitude he'll go far!

Dughorm · 09-06-2015 08:08PM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Uplifting alright. Meanwhile my company is trying to recruit French speakers.
Ah well, they will have to be brought in from France. Queue cries of "Dey took our Jerbs!".

I would have thought given the high praise to the way we teach french in this thread that there should be no shortage of irish born french speakers applying, no?

Maybe the comparisons made to the way french is taught are a red herring?

PopePalpatine · 09-06-2015 08:29PM

Dughorm wrote: »

Well his family decided to move to Ireland and wanted him to be well versed in both our country's languages, not unfortunate at all...

With such a good attitude he'll go far!

I suppose an Irish quango could do with a token foreigner.

Dan_Solo · 09-06-2015 08:31PM

The Corinthian wrote: »

Don't worry, I don't actually care what you think. Save your effort for chasing your tail elsewhere.

Why did you bother making 18,000+ posts here if you don't give a ****e what anybody thinks...

Dughorm · 09-06-2015 08:41PM

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I suppose an Irish quango could do with a token foreigner.

Harsh!

It's amazing how positively disposed people can be to Irish who aren't natives In my experience. No hangups!

Dan_Solo · 09-06-2015 08:47PM

Dughorm wrote: »

Harsh!

It's amazing how positively disposed people can be to Irish who aren't natives In my experience. No hangups!

Well the thing is you've probably convinced yourself that if only Irish was taught in manner X or Y then everybody in the land would suddenly love it refuse to speak any other language again.
The problem is this is nonsense. Nobody wants to speak it, no matter what their proficiency level is or how easy it was for them to learn.

K4t · 09-06-2015 08:47PM

Dughorm wrote: »

Well his family decided to move to Ireland and wanted him to be well versed in both our country's languages, not unfortunate at all...

With such a good attitude he'll go far!

I'm sure he will, though perhaps he could have gone that bit further had a slightly more practical approach been taken by his parents.

briany · 09-06-2015 08:53PM

Dughorm wrote: »

Harsh!

It's amazing how positively disposed people can be to Irish who aren't natives In my experience. No hangups!

To be fair, just because the child of resident non-natives speaks it, or one passes a couple of Spanish people sitting outside a café in Galway speaking it doesn't necessarily lend credence to the idea that foreign people take up the language with any more zeal. It's confirmation bias to see a few foreign people who are into it (and fair play to them, btw) and assume that means there's a higher proportion of that demographic who are receptive to speaking Irish. I could just as easily form the bias in the other direction in foreign people I've talked to where Irish did not come up. Does that mean they were completely ignorant of the language? Either way, you need hard statistics.

Dunford · 09-06-2015 08:59PM

the only way you will become proficient in speaking ANY language is if you use it every day. that just isnt going to happen for the vast majority of Irish citizens.....therefore a dying language. its been dying for years.

Dughorm · 09-06-2015 09:02PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Well the thing is you've probably convinced yourself that if only Irish was taught in manner X or Y then everybody in the land would suddenly love it refuse to speak any other language again.
The problem is this is nonsense

Never suggested this. Why does one have to be monolingual?

dlouth15 · 09-06-2015 09:03PM

Immersion does work as a language learning technique. If he had not learned Irish at the Gaelscoil he would not have been able to learn other subjects taught through that medium. If he found Irish difficult after 8 or 9 years of schooling primarily in that language then that would be very surprising. Attitude doesn't really come into it.

But the main advantage is that he will get a good result in Honours Irish. I wonder how much he will use it 4 or 5 years from now.

Dughorm · 09-06-2015 09:04PM

K4t wrote: »

I'm sure he will, though perhaps he could have gone that bit further had a slightly more practical approach been taken by his parents.

Learning irish (or any additional language) does not have to be a zero sum game.

Dan_Solo · 09-06-2015 09:04PM

Dughorm wrote: »

Never suggested this. Why does one have to be monolingual?

One doesn't have to be. Still no possible reason to bother learning Irish in that argument I'm afraid for you.

Dughorm · 09-06-2015 09:16PM

briany wrote: »

To be fair, just because the child of resident non-natives speaks it, or one passes a couple of Spanish people sitting outside a café in Galway speaking it doesn't necessarily lend credence to the idea that foreign people take up the language with any more zeal.

Would that be because there is no such homogenous group of "foreign people"? ... not into imposing identities on any one simply making the point that the approach currently taken to learning irish can be used as a tool of inclusion and can be embraced by all with a positive disposition.

It's confirmation bias to see a few foreign people who are into it (and fair play to them, btw) and assume that means there's a higher proportion of that demographic who are receptive to speaking Irish. I could just as easily form the bias in the other direction in foreign people I've talked to where Irish did not come up. Does that mean they were completely ignorant of the language? Either way, you need hard statistics.

Have I made this assumption? I have simply admired a positive attitude from someone who had to overcome obstacles and has no hangups about the language. This was also my experience in some other similar situations. I haven't labelled anyone or claimed to make statistically significant conclusions.

Aineoil · 09-06-2015 09:17PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Nobody wants to speak it, no matter what their proficiency level is or how easy it was for them to learn.

That's a very sweeping statement. People who live in the Gaeltacht areas of

Ireland speak Irish just as you speak English.

Dughorm · 09-06-2015 09:24PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

One doesn't have to be. Still no possible reason to bother learning Irish in that argument I'm afraid for you.

Why is the burden of proof on me to show you why bother learning Irish? You have yet to give a reason other than the circular "it's a waste of time" argument against.

Why would you not want to know what the words of your own national anthem mean assuming youre irish?

briany · 09-06-2015 09:40PM

Dughorm wrote: »

Would that be because there is no such homogenous group of "foreign people"? ... not into imposing identities on any one simply making the point that the approach currently taken to learning irish can be used as a tool of inclusion and can be embraced by all with a positive disposition.

Have I made this assumption? I have simply admired a positive attitude from someone who had to overcome obstacles and has no hangups about the language. This was also my experience in some other similar situations. I haven't labelled anyone or claimed to make statistically significant conclusions.

There is an accusation sometimes made against Irish people, or native Irish, or however you want to say it, that they have little national or cultural pride because they're being outpaced in uptake of the language, proportionately, by people who come to live here from abroad or the children of those who do. Not trying to put words in your mouth about how you feel over Irish people vs. non-Irish people speaking the language, but I've seen the sentiment used as a segue into talking about the native Irish's perceived negativity toward the language before, and I wanted to nip it in the bud in case that line of logic caught fire (again).

As for the term for a group of people, you yourself said "not native", just meaning non-native as I said or foreign. "Foreign" is also a synonym for non-native, although it gets a bit of a bad rep because of the tone in which some people use it, but I assure you that was not my intent.

Dughorm · 09-06-2015 09:53PM

briany wrote: »

As for the term for a group of people, you yourself said "not native", just meaning non-native as I said or foreign. "Foreign" is also a synonym for non-native, although it gets a bit of a bad rep because of the tone in which some people use it, but I assure you that was not my intent.

I wouldn't agree with the negative aspect of the argument that "irish people have a hangup en masse", rather the positive argument that "one without a hangup can excel and enjoy the language"

As for foreign v not native.... you're right foreign is a word that people can equivocate with hence why I don't like using it.

Dan_Solo · 09-06-2015 09:54PM

Aineoil wrote: »

That's a very sweeping statement. People who live in the Gaeltacht areas of

Ireland speak Irish just as you speak English.

People who live in small, specially designated and funded areas speak, to a large extent, the Irish language.
We've been through this already. Irish is finished. Nobody outside a dwindling tiny smattering of people are even faintly interested.

Dan_Solo · 09-06-2015 09:56PM

Dughorm wrote: »

Why is the burden of proof on me to show you why bother learning Irish? You have yet to give a reason other than the circular "it's a waste of time" argument against.

Why would you not want to know what the words of your own national anthem mean assuming youre irish?

For a start, if I really wanted to know what a particular specific song meant in my native tongue, I'd probably just Google it rather than learn the entirety of the language in question.
Learning Irish being a waste of time because it's a waste of time... hmm, maybe you need "circular logic" translated into Irish for yourself because that's not that is.

Dan_Solo · 09-06-2015 10:00PM

briany wrote: »

There is an accusation sometimes made against Irish people, or native Irish, or however you want to say it, that they have little national or cultural pride because they're being outpaced in uptake of the language, proportionately, by people who come to live here from abroad or the children of those who do. Not trying to put words in your mouth about how you feel over Irish people vs. non-Irish people speaking the language, but I've seen the sentiment used as a segue into talking about the native Irish's perceived negativity toward the language before, and I wanted to nip it in the bud in case that line of logic caught fire (again).

As for the term for a group of people, you yourself said "not native", just meaning non-native as I said or foreign. "Foreign" is also a synonym for non-native, although it gets a bit of a bad rep because of the tone in which some people use it, but I assure you that was not my intent.

It's pretty hilarious the way this thread has gone that a complete foreigner learning Irish seems to be being held up as more "Irish" than 90%+ of indigenous Irish people who have been here for generations but speak English...

Dughorm · 09-06-2015 10:07PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

It's pretty hilarious the way this thread has gone that a complete foreigner learning Irish seems to be being held up as more "Irish" than 90%+ of indigenous Irish people who have been here for generations but speak English...

If that's directed at me then I couldn't disagree more.

As I've already said it's not for me (or you) to decide what someone else's identity is.

Dughorm · 09-06-2015 10:10PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

For a start, if I really wanted to know what a particular specific song meant in my native tongue, I'd probably just Google it rather than learn the entirety of the language in question.

How can one ever learn the entirety of a language?
Not what I'm saying.

Translation is always second best. Why not learn the living language to engage with it?

You haven't given persuasive reasons to not learn the language. We can always learn other things but that can be an addition.

Dan_Solo · 09-06-2015 10:19PM

Dughorm wrote: »

How can one ever learn the entirety of a language?
Not what I'm saying.

Translation is always second best. Why not learn the living language to engage with it?

Because of I've better things to do with my life than learn how to speak a language which will be guaranteed 100% entirely useless for any conceivable purpose?

Do You Even Squat · 09-06-2015 10:22PM

Just finished my HL Irish paper 2 today. I'm hoping for at least an A2. It's pretty sad that by the time I'm 30, I'll have the same level of Irish as the foundation level students in my year.

Dughorm · 09-06-2015 10:23PM

Is having Irish a bit like having a 'good room'?

Hardly ever used but wheeled out on occasions and good to have just in case...

09-06-2015 10:27PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Well the thing is you've probably convinced yourself that if only Irish was taught in manner X or Y then everybody in the land would suddenly love it refuse to speak any other language again.
The problem is this is nonsense. Nobody wants to speak it, no matter what their proficiency level is or how easy it was for them to learn.

Tend to mostly agree with you

Aineoil wrote: »

That's a very sweeping statement. People who live in the Gaeltacht areas of

Ireland speak Irish just as you speak English.

If Dan_Sols's statement is sweeping, surely yours has got to be equally so. Come on, you don't really believe that.

Spent my first 18 years in the Galethacht, the only reason 80% professed to speak Irish at home was for the ‘deontas’, gone now I believe. Most could but didn't, unless in preparation for that day once a year when the ‘cigire’ would visit.

09-06-2015 10:27PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Well the thing is you've probably convinced yourself that if only Irish was taught in manner X or Y then everybody in the land would suddenly love it refuse to speak any other language again.
The problem is this is nonsense. Nobody wants to speak it, no matter what their proficiency level is or how easy it was for them to learn.

Tend to mostly agree with you

Aineoil wrote: »

That's a very sweeping statement. People who live in the Gaeltacht areas of

Ireland speak Irish just as you speak English.

If Dan_Sols's statement is sweeping, surely yours has got to be equally so. Come on, you don't really believe that.

Spent my first 18 years in the Galethacht, the only reason 80% professed to speak Irish at home was for the ‘deontas’, gone now I believe. Most could but didn't, unless in preparation for that day once a year when the ‘cigire’ would visit.

Iwasfrozen · 09-06-2015 10:28PM

Do You Even Squat wrote: »

Just finished my HL Irish paper 2 today. I'm hoping for at least an A2. It's pretty sad that by the time I'm 30, I'll have the same level of Irish as the foundation level students in my year.

Congratulations kid you'll never use Irish again. I hope all that time spent learning it was worth it.

Do You Even Squat · 09-06-2015 10:39PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Congratulations kid you'll never use Irish again. I hope all that time spent learning it was worth it.

Never did algebra or geometry in primary school but at least i got to know how to conjugate verbs in the past tense. Spent over 3 hours a week in irish class and 3 hours a week studying irish over 6 years. Time well spent

The Irish language is failing.

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