The Irish language is failing.

The project for the revival of Gaelic never had the remotest prospect of succeeding as anyone with a knowledge of sociolinguistics would know.
A process of language shift had been in train for centuries before Independence-it didn't matter what schemes were set up thereafter.
Trying to reverse a language shift is somewhat akin to trying to stop an avalanche.
The quality of schoolteaching was immaterial and it's merely another revivalist delusion that if some ideal curriculum was skilfully taught by dedicated teachers -Gaelic would come flooding back among the population at large...even as native speakers were continually moving to English.

A few further brief points.

Countless millions have been and still are being wasted on this wretched Gaelic revival.
The latest is the booklet that came with the water bills -24 pages of Gaelic gobbledygook happily and pointlessly produced by civil servants
Here's a sample ...
* damáiste do réadmhaoin a tháinig aníos go
heisiach
or how about
*Déantar foráil do thosca mar ar féidir Téarmaí...a tharscaoileadh.

This nonsense is given out to over 1 1/2million houses in the country by all state agencies several times a year and for referendums etc. Nearly 40,000,000 extra pages for the water billing alone.

The main group who gain from continuing the insane policies being pursued is the band of professional revivalists who wheedle control of state money for their own benefit and that of their offspring who can get nice non-jobs in soft areas like media -not forgetting translation.
The revivalists give out contradictory messages . One minute they're telling the government Gaelic is absolutely flying -and they instance Gaelscoileanna ,census figures etc. Next minute the story is that Gaelic is dying and that this sad fate can only be avoided by -yes, you guessed it-the granting of yet more money and resources to the various existing revival bodies and the creation of a batch of new ones for good measure.
The ludicrous article in the Constitution that proclaims Gaelic to be the First official language of the state should be amended. English should be the only official language with Gaelic being recognised as a language of special cultural significance or some such wording.

boardise wrote: »

Countless millions have been and still are being wasted on this wretched Gaelic revival.

The most pointless thing I've seen are coolant filler locations on Bus Eireann buses marked in Irish. Seriously, wtf, for two reasons...1. it's not even signage intended for the general public and 2. if you're a mechanic and can't find where to top up coolant without a sign, you're in the wrong job!

Has anyone attempted to engage this topic as gaeilge? In a way this whole discussion is a microcosm of the decline of Irish. Even the most ardent supporters that I've seen in this thread are speaking in English, so they're feeding into the problem, as they see it, by meeting English speakers on their terms.

briany wrote: »

Has anyone attempted to engage this topic as gaeilge? In a way this whole discussion is a microcosm of the decline of Irish. Even the most ardent supporters that I've seen in this thread are speaking in English, so they're feeding into the problem, as they see it, by meeting English speakers on their terms.

I think it would be kind of rude and pointless to argue about it in Irish when the majority can't speak it. I wouldnt call it feeding into the problem.

boardise wrote: »

The situation is even worse when it emerges that the Gaelic wording of the constitution (itself apparently a translation of the English) is the version that must be given primacy if an ambiguity ofinterpretation arises...a truly unnerving prospect.

The worst part if that there is a contradiction in the current constitution.

Some other points pertinent to various earlier posts.

a) There is no Gaeltacht in any real sense and probably has not been for the last half century. A report published around 30 years ago revealed that the areas regarded in official fiction as Gaeltachtaí were not cohesive organic communities but rather a collection of scattered networks.
Laughable example -if you drive down the N17 between Tuam and Claregalway a roadside sign will inform you that you are entering a 'Gaeltacht'. It's as much a Gaeltacht as Ballyragget. Incidentally no sign exists to say you have exited from this linguistic never-never land....for all we know the Gaeltacht extends on southwards to CapeTown ,Antarctica and beyond until it loops back again to Tuam.

b) the standard of Gaelic spoken in so-called Gaeltachtaí is degenerate .

c) The standard of Gaelic elsewhere is lamentable.
Here's an instructive instance of what's going on -given to me by a lecturer in a training college.
A student ( shortly to be a teacher) was doing a translation exercise from English to Gaelic.
They came to the term 'lead singer' and produced 'luaidhe amhránaí'.
Clearly they went to a dictionary and sought the headword 'lead'. What they found was the word 'luaidhe' for the metal designated by the chemical symbol Pb. Not having the first clue what they're doing they plop it in to the slot for 'lead' meaning 'first 'or 'principal'.
Examples like this can be multiplied to the Nth degree and many have been published as examples of the
raddled form of Gaelic evinced by products of Gaelscoileanna Lord help us.
No matter where you look or how you turn it -Gaelic is now in a feeble state .Its sounds have been mangled ,its idiomatic structure has been diluted and it has not the lexical resources to describe the contemporary world nor has it a critical mass of native speakers.
For these and other reasons one can't compare Gaelic to languages like French , German ,Spanish etc.
These languages feature tens of millions of native speakers -many of them monoglot. This provides stability for the grammar on the one hand and on the other it gives the capacity for change that will be controlled and non-volatile. When language learners go to the countries where these languages are spoken they can be immersed in and enthralled by the diversity of cultural experiences available in large vibrant cities. In Gaelic -they get to go to hamlets or villages on the west coast of Ireland.

boardise wrote: »

A student ( shortly to be a teacher) was doing a translation exercise from English to Gaelic.
They came to the term 'lead singer' and produced 'luaidhe amhránaí'.
Clearly they went to a dictionary and sought the headword 'lead'. What they found was the word 'luaidhe' for the metal designated by the chemical symbol Pb. Not having the first clue what they're doing they plop it in to the slot for 'lead' meaning 'first 'or 'principal'.

Reminds me of Mary Coughlan calling the Greens (as in Green Party) "Na Glasraí" (the vegetables) a few years ago.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

That's nonsense. Why would your arguments be any more convincing in Irish than in English?

Interesting point. One of the oft pointed out benefits of learning Irish is the chance to access new modes of thought and expression. That there could be concepts in Irish that simply cannot be expressed in English may be true (it's true of most languages) but are they concepts that have much relevance to today?

Put it another way - we already have one collection of words we can use to describe our thoughts and feelings, and quite adequately as well. That isn't to promote the idea of English monolingualism, because there's a good practical reason to learn languages for the sake of communication, but as we know, there are precious few instances throughout the land where learning Irish for the sake of better facilitating communication is worthwhile. A smattering of settlements on the west coast seems to be the most optimistic estimate.

So what are we left with? Well, the Irish language is full of prose, poetry and song, and it offers, for some, a chance to feel closer to their heritage or enhance their identity. A reason for learning? Sure, if you want to enrich yourself that way, but some people also don't particularly care for prose, poetry or song in English, never mind Irish. You know them, or you meet them everyday. For some people, their identity is not defined by the same parameters as it is for others, and they don't particularly give much thought to their heritage. Does that make them bad people or ignorant? If you place a lot of stock in those kinds of values, it can make them seem that way, but you have to also recognise that we're supposed to be living in a free society where people can have differing cultural opinions.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

That's nonsense. Why would your arguments be any more convincing in Irish than in English?

The poster was asking for someone to come on here and make their case in Irish, the next person said such a post would need to be bilingual, and no-one else seemed to be taking up the challenge.

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

The poster was asking for someone to come on here and make their case in Irish, the next person said such a post would need to be bilingual, and no-one else seemed to be taking up the challenge.

Not so much that, but that even the most pro-Irish posters were making their case in English. As I see it, there's a tacit recognition that English is the language of communication in this predominantly Irish online community, to the point where no other language is really tolerated on boards besides the ones dedicated to languages, even though Irish is, constitutionally, the first language of Ireland. That doesn't say much for the relevance of Irish as a modern, 21st century language.

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

It is a very valid point and I can't disagree with it. Just that I couldn't be part of this riveting debate.

I did post in Irish on another thread a long time ago. People didn't appreciate it.

Fair enough you wouldn't be part of the debate.

Cold War Kid wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with it being forced on people, but I wouldn't like to see Irish die, or Welsh, or Ulster Scots (I have a feeling *certain* folks who dismiss the Irish language would sing a different tune about Ulster Scots).

Something doesn't have to be utilitarian to be kept alive.

I dismiss Ulster Scots on the basis of it being a mere dialect of English and therefore having no place in that list.

Totally agree that something shouldn't be utilitarian to be kept alive, to be relevant. You study such things at University, as optional subjects in secondary school, or indeed as an extra-curricular/free-time activity.