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Irish state now will now accept a trans persons own declaration of their gender

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  • #182
    nokia69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭nokia69


    Cuban Pete wrote: »
    It's funny how in all these discussions, no one talks about trans men. I wonder why that is...

    there seems to be far less of them around


  • #183
    Adamocovic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,292 ✭✭✭Adamocovic


    Knasher wrote: »
    There aren't many times when you have to give somebody a copy of your birth cert. But when you do, you might not also want to announce to them that you are transgendered. Which is what having the special cert that states both would do.
    Not a NSA agent wrote: »
    The original birth cert will just be on file, hidden away for the historical accuracy everyone loves, the person won't be required to keep this one for things like social welfare.

    The person will receive the new updated birth cert and can be used for anything that requires a birth cert. I'm not sure how they link the 2 though. In the end the person just gets a new piece of paper that means they dont have to explain the situation every time but the records still note that they were the opposite gender at birth.

    Fair enough! At the end of the day it doesnt affect me and it's all about what the individual wants, just an interesting process which has me intrigued.

    If you had of suggested the changes in the laws that have happened this year in the past you would have been called crazy. Seems like good progressive times for Ireland.


  • #184
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭Daith


    Adamocovic wrote: »
    Fair enough! At the end of the day it doesnt affect me and it's all about what the individual wants, just an interesting process which has me intrigued.

    Indeed but for a person who does believe they were born a different gender having the State validate that with a cert would be tremendous and positive I think.


  • #185
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    andrew wrote: »
    so what's the issue?

    I'll go out on a limb and say that maybe some folks might have issues with transgender people, or may not like us as a group on the whole, but want to be a bit on the down low about it and so use this avenue of criticism. Just a guess?


  • #186
    Clearlier
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,454 ✭✭✭Clearlier


    Lollipops23 wrote: »
    I'd be in agreement with this post- transitioning should absolutely be made easier for those who want to. New passports/driving licence/Garda Age card etc should be easy to get with your correct gender on them.

    But your sex at birth (not gender, as only you can define that) is not really up for debate-either you were XX or XY. What happens down the line is entirely up to you and is nobody else's business.

    But your birth cert is not for editing. It is a historical document of the facts surrounding your birth. My dad doesn't work at the same job he did in 1987, should my BC be reissued to reflect the fact?

    I would be in favour of issuance of a legal certificate that you are NOW male or female. Any authority that deals with genders (passport office/drivers licence/marriage certificate office etc) should be fully educated on both the facts and the sensitivity required. Zero tolerance for BS from any staff member who gives a trans person sh*t when they're getting admin taken care of.

    XX and XY isn't a completely reliable guide to sex according to the WHO.

    To avoid discrimination any issuance of a legal certificate should be for the entire population. Training is all well and good but if there's no need for somebody to know that a person is transgender I don't see why it should have to be disclosed.


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  • #187
    Adamocovic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,292 ✭✭✭Adamocovic


    Links234 wrote: »
    I'll go out on a limb and say that maybe some folks might have issues with transgender people, or may not like us as a group on the whole, but want to be a bit on the down low about it and so use this avenue of criticism. Just a guess?

    From what I have seen on boards I don't think many would keep it on the down low if they don't like someone or a group of people :pac:


  • #188
    andrew
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 3,373 Mod ✭✭✭✭andrew


    Links234 wrote: »
    I'll go out on a limb and say that maybe some folks might have issues with transgender people, or may not like us as a group on the whole, but want to be a bit on the down low about it and so use this avenue of criticism. Just a guess?

    Of course you're right there, unfortunately.

    I think a lot of people find it so outside of the realm of their everyday experience, that they don't know what to think and don't take it seriously. At least with homosexuality, people can empathise to the extent that they know what being attracted to someone is like, and can probably tell when a member of the same sex is attractive. But when it comes to sex/gender and being Trans, it's incredibly difficult to imagine what it's like to feel like that way. So that manifests itself in, well, the gamut of responses in this thread, everything from bigotry to ignorance.


  • #189
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 55,061 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    andrew wrote: »
    People on this thread seem to have a remarkable amount of concern for the accuracy, or otherwise, of the 'historical' documents which identify others. I think Genealogy will manage to survive this massive overhaul :rolleyes:. The only people this actually effects are Trans people, and it'll make them happier, so what's the issue?

    "Why do you all care?" is a pretty moronic question to ask in a thread posted in After Hours.

    Obviously the OP thought we should all care enough to create the thread, otherwise it would be in the LGBT forum where it wouldn't be questioned at all.


  • #190
    andrew
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 3,373 Mod ✭✭✭✭andrew


    awec wrote: »
    "Why do you all care?" is a pretty moronic question to ask in a thread posted in After Hours.

    Obviously the OP thought we should all care enough to create the thread.

    It's obviously not difficult to anticipate that people will care, hence the thread. But I havn't seen people explain well WHY they care though, except for silly appeals to historical accuracy, as though eveyone on the thread was an overworked genealogy researcher or at best, incredibly pedantic.


  • #191
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭Daith


    awec wrote: »
    Obviously the OP thought we should all care enough to create the thread, otherwise it would be in the LGBT forum where it wouldn't be questioned at all.

    You'd be wrong there.


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  • #192
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 55,061 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    andrew wrote: »
    It's obviously not difficult to anticipate that people will care, hence the thread. But I havn't seen people explain well WHY they care though, except for silly appeals to historical accuracy, as though eveyone on the thread was an overworked genealogy researcher or at best, incredibly pedantic.

    People often care about affairs of the state even if they don't have a direct impact on their own lives.

    It's actually impossible to have real debates about these things though, because on one side you have irrational hatred of members of the LGBT community and on the other side you have people who are just absolutely unwilling to have their point of view questioned and anyone who disagrees with them is just intolerant or a bigot.


  • #193
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 55,061 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Daith wrote: »
    You'd be wrong there.

    Yea you're right, I'm sure the point of the thread was to get 10 pages of "we don't care". :rolleyes:


  • #194
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭Daith


    awec wrote: »
    Yea you're right, I'm sure the point of the thread was to get 10 pages of "we don't care". :rolleyes:

    There isn't any point to any thread in AH


  • #195
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭Daith


    awec wrote: »
    It's actually impossible to have real debates about these things though, because on one side you have irrational hatred of members of the LGBT community and on the other side you have people who are just absolutely unwilling to have their point of view questioned and anyone who disagrees with them is just intolerant or a bigot.

    Has anyone being called a bigot here?

    Quite frankly there's being more nonsense about REWRITING HISTORY than anything.


  • #196
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,320 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    awec wrote: »
    It's actually impossible to have real debates about these things though, because on one side you have irrational hatred of members of the LGBT community and on the other side you have people who are just absolutely unwilling to have their point of view questioned and anyone who disagrees with them is just intolerant or a bigot.
    Pretty much sums it up A.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #197
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,320 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Daith wrote: »
    Has anyone being called a bigot here?
    Quite a few times in the other thread on the subject along with accusations of phobia and the like. Or the more sideways approach such as this a few posts back.
    Links234 wrote:
    I'll go out on a limb and say that maybe some folks might have issues with transgender people, or may not like us as a group on the whole, but want to be a bit on the down low about it and so use this avenue of criticism. Just a guess?

    Though as Awec reckoned a debate on this kinda thing is near impossible. On one side you'll have those who want to be needlessly insulting and the other who just wants a group hug echo chamber.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #198
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭Daith


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Quite a few times in the other thread on the subject along with accusations of phobia and the like. Or the more sideways approach such as this a few posts back.

    That's the other thread. I thought we weren't supposed to be carrying stuff over from other threads. That's probably why you can't have a proper discussion around this. I think a thread about binary nature of gender could be interesting though.

    There's far more talk about changing the original birth cert on this than anything even what said over and over that isn't happening. Talk about a group hug.


  • #199
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 55,061 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Anyway, to go back to the OP and the subject in question I can honestly say I am not bothered either way. If it makes people happier and their lives easier then so be it. I am curious as to how exactly it will work though but I guess we'll see over time.


  • #200
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭Daith


    awec wrote: »
    Anyway, to go back to the OP and the subject in question I can honestly say I am not bothered either way. If it makes people happier so be it. I am curious as to how exactly it will work though but I guess we'll see over time.

    Same way it will work if any birth cert has an error I suspect. Birth Cert is private and generally only used in specific cases for ID.


  • #201
    Cuban Pete
    Closed Accounts Posts: 156 ✭✭Cuban Pete


    awec wrote: »
    People often care about affairs of the state even if they don't have a direct impact on their own lives.

    It's actually impossible to have real debates about these things though, because on one side you have irrational hatred of members of the LGBT community and on the other side you have people who are just absolutely unwilling to have their point of view questioned and anyone who disagrees with them is just intolerant or a bigot.

    You mean trans people who're told by turns that they don't exist, they just have a mental illness, they're doing it to perv on or abuse women, or any other number of things?

    Because personally, I can see how that might lead someone to not really be receptive to being questioned.

    Let's not forget, trans folk aren't just some nebulous group that exist in some faraway land. We've some on this very thread. A little respect and consideration towards them is hardly too much to ask.


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  • #202
    andrew
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 3,373 Mod ✭✭✭✭andrew


    awec wrote: »
    People often care about affairs of the state even if they don't have a direct impact on their own lives.

    And that's fair enough; it's normal and good to care when others are being harmed, for example. But in this instance, the only people affected by this are Trans people, and they're affected in a positive way. There is no tangible effect (christ effect and affect are hard...) on anyone else. Zero. Nada, none. So why the need for a 'real debate' or any debate at all?
    It's actually impossible to have real debates about these things though, because on one side you have irrational hatred of members of the LGBT community and on the other side you have people who are just absolutely unwilling to have their point of view questioned and anyone who disagrees with them is just intolerant or a bigot

    Part of this, I think, is that many people insist on having a 'real debate' which really just masks their hatefullness and bigotry. They invent issues or problems (oh no, historical records!) which even a moment's thought will show to be complete non-issues, and constantly repeat them. It's very frustrating to have to argue against these points, and very hard to tell when someone is making them out of genuine concern and not out of hatefullness. So, on the 'liberal' side people go 'ah screw it, you're just a bigot anyway.'


  • #203
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭Daith


    andrew wrote: »
    Part of this, I think, is that many people insist on having a 'real debate' which really just masks their hatefullness and bigotry. They invent issues or problems (oh no, historical records!) which even a moment's thought will show to be complete non-issues, and constantly repeat them. It's very frustrating to have to argue against these points, and very hard to tell when someone is making them out of genuine concern and not out of hatefullness. So, on the 'liberal' side people go 'ah screw it, you're just a bigot anyway.'

    It's like the marriage referendum all over again

    Can I marry my boyfriend?
    No?
    Why?
    Cos there'll be no need to have a Mothers Day anymore.

    Deceleration of gender?
    Cheaper car insurance


  • #204
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 55,061 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Cuban Pete wrote: »
    You mean trans people who're told by turns that they don't exist, they just have a mental illness, they're doing it to perv on or abuse women, or any other number of things?

    Because personally, I can see how that might lead someone to not really be receptive to being questioned.

    Let's not forget, trans folk aren't just some nebulous group that exist in some faraway land. We've some on this very thread. A little respect and consideration towards them is hardly too much to ask.

    I know we have some on this thread. Nobody is saying they don't deserve respect and nobody is saying they don't live a tough life. These are strawman arguments.

    I am not denying there are people with no interest in a real discussion and who just irrationally are against trans people (and the other LBG folks).

    But what you are basically saying is trans people get grief from some in society so nobody has the right to question anything surrounding them otherwise they are probably just a bigot.


  • #205
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭Daith


    awec wrote: »
    But what you are basically saying is trans people get grief from some in society so nobody has the right to question anything surrounding them otherwise they are probably just a bigot.

    I'm kind of surprised because you're the first person in this thread to use the word bigot. Talk about strawman.

    Didn't even enter the fray before that as it was mostly on the birth cert issues.


  • #206
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Links234 wrote: »
    I'll go out on a limb and say that maybe some folks might have issues with transgender people, or may not like us as a group on the whole, but want to be a bit on the down low about it and so use this avenue of criticism. Just a guess?

    Or people may see a system of this type open to abuse ? legally wise. I have no problem with genuine transgender people changing information. But a blanket self assessment is open to abuse.


  • #207
    ThinkProgress
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,634 ✭✭✭ThinkProgress


    MrWalsh wrote: »
    Changing gender is a private medical matter though isnt it? It doesnt sound very nice that a transgender person has to declare that they are transgender every time they apply for something by producing a "gender change cert" or such like.

    But they ARE transgender. And they are proud and unashamed of this fact. That's what we're always being told by media, rights groups etc.

    So why would they be offended by declaring it? Or having people aware of it?

    Measures like these are an attempt to erase and re-write history. You don't do that unless you're uncomfortable about that part of your past!

    If you are truly proud of who you are and where you've come from, you don't go to such great lengths to conceal it from the world.

    Biologically speaking, a transgender person is precisely that. And they should be courageous enough to wear that badge with pride - not hide it or erase it from their history!

    Otherwise it's hypocritical.


  • #208
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,034 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Or people may see a system of this type open to abuse ? legally wise. I have no problem with genuine transgender people changing information. But a blanket self assessment is open to abuse.
    Can you give an example of this abuse and possible implications?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #209
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,228 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Links234 wrote: »
    You know things are probably gonna get very nasty (well, things are nasty already, but even nastier than they are now), like they did with the marriage referendum. Probably worse because trans people are such a small minority relatively and the Iona crowd are surely gonna set their sights on the issue, so I'm seriously not looking forward to another campaign from Quinn, O'Brien and Waters and whoever else. But right now, I am grinning ear to ear! :D

    I'm not even happy for myself, I'm thinking of how much this means to so many friends of mine, it's incredible. I know a lot of people just don't get it, and that's ok too, but this means so much.

    I think it really is fantastic.

    You know people really do like to slag this government off and in many cases they are correct but for lgbt people this has been the best government ever in this country. It delivered on homophobic and transphobic bullying. It delievered on constitutional change. It is just on the cusp of delivering progressive meaningful gender recognition and finally amending the draconian Section 37.1 of the employment equality act. Today I am proud to be Irish and proud of this government.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #210
    osarusan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,837 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    I don't have any problem with new birth certs being issued (while being linked to the original ones that are kept on record). I do understand the 'historical statement of fact' argument (and agree with it, actually) but I'm not attaching as much importance to it as others have.

    I agree that transgender people shouldn't have to explain anything whenever they need to present a birth cert (although I'd be interested to know who has access to the originals - I assume the police would be able to get access if necessary).

    I also disagree with words that were used earlier in the thread to describe the assignation of sex at the time of birth as 'incorrect' or mistaken'. I do not think the doctor was mistaken when they looked down, saw a penis between the baby's legs, and noted the sex as male. That may be changed on the new cert, but I don't agree that it is something that needs to be 'corrected'.


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  • #211
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    SW wrote: »
    Can you give an example of this abuse and possible implications?

    I already have in infraction, I am not falling into that trap again. I'm sure everyone can think of day to day reasons why It could be advantageous.


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