The Irish language is failing.

Bored_lad · 31-05-2015 09:04PM

Reiver wrote: »

Agreed. It's meant to be inclusive.

Thats on thing non Irish people seem to think is that us Irish speakers think we are superior and snobby but we're not we're just like you and don't look down on you or think we are better than you. We don't see you as being any less Irish or ourselves being anymore Irish just because you and I can or can't speak Irish.

actua11 · 31-05-2015 09:05PM

My personal stance is that we should all aim to have our native language as our 1st language, as most countries in Europe do along with English and has done them no harm (Sweden, Norway, Netherlands etc. etc.)

Also, specifically about the Gaeltacht areas, I've not seen figures but being protected rural areas, job availability, planning permission for new homes and other issues must be driving people away from the area, diminishing the number of the more mainly Irish language users.

About Irish, my guess is that the bad experiences that some (or perhaps most) people had learning the language has left a kind of Pavlovian response with people.

I can understand that if your speaking in a language that someone in the room doesn't understand, it can be seen as rude. However I've many many cases with friends and family where I try to drop in even a simple "Conas a tá tú?" or something similar that I know they understand and it's almost always met with a "why talk like that" or "cop on" type response.

I'm almost reminded of Del-Boy in Only Fools and Horses who try to drop in the odd bit of French in the same way, or how people try to speak a little Spanish at the bar on their holidays.

People it seems have no issue learning even the odd few words of a language, but it seems to be more of a case that the language itself isn't a problem but the reputation is in tatters of how it's taught and it's place in Irish society. Though I'm not sure how to go about fixing this reputation....

4zn76tysfajdxp · 31-05-2015 09:10PM

actua11 wrote: »

My personal stance is that we should all aim to have our native language as our 1st language, as most countries in Europe do along with English and has done them no harm (Sweden, Norway, Netherlands etc. etc.)

In fairness, that will never happen.

Shrap · 31-05-2015 09:10PM

feargale wrote: »

This is unfair to Aineoil who has told a tale which illustrates to all save the blind that all the rudeness and intolerance attaching to this issue does not rest on one side. You should address that tale before smokescreening it by attempting to drag Aineoil into another issue which, to my knowledge, has not been touched on by Aineoil.

I have nothing against Aineoil at all, and he/she came back with a well thought out comment on what I had presented in my post. I think you are doing he/she down by not giving credit for he/she to be able to answer to my statement of fact. He/she did indeed answer rather well actually. Did you spot that?

BTW, "smokescreening", "dragging", etc. are not how I would describe my polite and personal/subjective posts here, but if you have a problem with them, as the mods say, report them.

Shrap · 31-05-2015 09:13PM

Bored_lad wrote: »

Thats on thing non Irish people seem to think is that us Irish speakers think we are superior and snobby but we're not we're just like you and don't look down on you or think we are better than you. We don't see you as being any less Irish or ourselves being anymore Irish just because you and I can or can't speak Irish.

Mostly I think you have been conversing with Irish people who do not speak the language. Considering the posts that have already claimed I didn't try well enough, that I clearly wasn't cut out for college, and how I've passed on my feelings towards Irish to my kids (thereby failing them), it's actually been made pretty obvious how "having Irish" makes you superior to some of us other Irish.

Deranged96 · 31-05-2015 09:17PM

Shep_Dog wrote: »

His conceit of there being an 'Irish Race'? His dismissal of anyone showing an interest in English culture as merely imitating the English? His attack on English literature: [FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]"We must set our face sternly against penny dreadfuls, shilling shockers, and still more, the garbage of vulgar English weeklies like Bow Bells and the Police Intelligence. Every house should have a copy of Moore and Davis....[/FONT]"

The context is the Gaelic Revival which reinvented and re-packaged Irish culture for political reasons.

The absurd notion of the 'Irish Race'. Compulsory Irish. The aim of restoring Irish as common language of Ireland.

If I say I don't like produced american music, that its influence is destroying other forms of music, does that make me a hater of America?

I've already said to you that Hyde resigned in his role of president of Conradh na Gaelige when it became political, the he wanted the language to unite rather than divide .So clearly, he had no political agenda despite your unfounded vitriol.

You're blaming Hyde for the notion of an "Irish race"? Himself, Yeats and Cusack were simply awful for wanting to preserve and promote their heritage, weren't they? How dare they fool Irish people into thinking they have a distinct culture!

Irish should not be compulsory, but you can hardly harbour such a hate for him just because he wanted to save the language, can you? The way it has been taught has had more of a negative effect than its mandatory nature.

I cant really understand why you're contriving reasons to hate the man for supporting the language.

actua11 · 31-05-2015 09:23PM

Alice Gifted Zenith wrote: »

In fairness, that will never happen.

I'd cite somewhere like Israel as being an example where you can bring a language back to life and prominence so it is possible and I hope it can happen but...even as an eternal optimist I'd tend to side with you, as at this moment I just can't see it happening.

ThinkProgress · 31-05-2015 09:26PM

Bored_lad wrote: »

Thats on thing non Irish people seem to think is that us Irish speakers think we are superior and snobby but we're not we're just like you and don't look down on you or think we are better than you. We don't see you as being any less Irish or ourselves being anymore Irish just because you and I can or can't speak Irish.

You should speak for yourself. Many others I've met have a different attitude!

But I commend you on YOUR attitude - (however I'm still not learning a dead language)

Reiver · 31-05-2015 09:27PM

ThinkProgress wrote: »

But I commend you on YOUR attitude - (however I'm still not learning a dead language)

Latin is dead. Gaulish is dead. Irish is not.

Shep_Dog · 31-05-2015 09:28PM

Deranged96 wrote: »

You're blaming Hyde for the notion of an "Irish race"? Himself, Yeats and Cusack were simply awful for wanting to preserve and promote their heritage, weren't they? How dare they fool Irish people into thinking they have a distinct culture!
...
I cant really understand why you're contriving reasons to hate the man for supporting the language.

Where do I say that I hate him? I criticised what he wrotein that essay. It's unbalanced and lacks objectivity. I then criticised the outcome of the process he started. It's no surprise that Irish is in a mess when its revival was founded on myths, bigotry and half-truths.

It's one thing to say a group of people have a distinct culture, quite another to say they are a separate race.

tawnyowl · 31-05-2015 09:29PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

As long as Irish is made optional in secondary school I can agree with this.

Making Irish optional in secondary school would be controversial.

ThinkProgress · 31-05-2015 09:31PM

Reiver wrote: »

Latin is dead. Gaulish is dead. Irish is not.

People still speak latin, actually there are more latin speakers than Irish speakers in the world.

But both are still DEAD languages in the practical sense of mass communication!

So yes, I stand by my statement. DEAD language.

ThinkProgress · 31-05-2015 09:33PM

tawnyowl wrote: »

Making Irish optional in secondary school would be controversial.

Forget about it then!

We must avoid all controversy. Forever! :P

Reiver · 31-05-2015 09:35PM

ThinkProgress wrote: »

People still speak latin, actually there are more latin speakers than Irish speakers in the world.

But both are still DEAD languages in the practical sense of mass communication!

So yes, I stand by my statement. DEAD language.

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/dead-language

Dictionary is against you. Irish is still spoken by thousands of people as their main language. Latin is not.

Deranged96 · 31-05-2015 09:37PM

Shep_Dog wrote: »

Where do I say that I hate him? I criticised what he wrotein that essay. It's unbalanced and lacks objectivity. I then criticised the outcome of the process he started. It's no surprise that Irish is in a mess when its revival was founded on myths, bigotry and half-truths.

It's one thing to say a group of people have a distinct culture, quite another to say they are a separate race.

To be fair, it was never actually revived.
Don't know of the myths and half-truths that you're alluding to.
Of course it's an unbalanced essay, it was written to promote Irish not list the advantages of English
I assumed that calling his legacy toxic was an indictment on the man, leading me to use the word "hate".

Not sure about this race thing, the word is empty as far as human biology is concerned but it's hardly an atrocity to bill Irish people as the Irish race.

4zn76tysfajdxp · 31-05-2015 09:41PM

ThinkProgress wrote: »

So yes, I stand by my statement. DEAD language.

Yeah but it's not, though.

Iwasfrozen · 31-05-2015 09:46PM

tawnyowl wrote: »

Making Irish optional in secondary school would be controversial.

Yes, but we should do the right thing controversial or not.

ThinkProgress · 31-05-2015 09:47PM

Reiver wrote: »

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/dead-language

Dictionary is against you. Irish is still spoken by thousands of people as their main language. Latin is not.

I really should just ignore all your comments and points like you do mine. But I'm not lazy and I don't run away from a debate!

I guarantee you that latin is better understood by more people in this world than Irish is. It's a mute point wether it's actually actively used.

Apart from tiny little portions of this huge planet, Irish is completely irrelevant as language for communication.

I agree that languages have cultural significance, but mostly they must be actively used for communication by a LOT of people to justify keeping them alive!

Irish is dying, and in many areas it's already long dead.

English is our true national language. Irish will never be revived to become our first language. So as our national language, Irish is DEAD!

Reiver · 31-05-2015 09:50PM

ThinkProgress wrote: »

I really should just ignore all your comments and points like you do mine. But I'm not lazy and I don't run away from a debate!

I guarantee you that latin is better understood by more people in this world than Irish is. It's a mute point wether it's actually actively used.

Apart from tiny little portions of this huge planet, Irish is completely irrelevant as language for communication.

I agree that languages have cultural significance, but mostly they must be actively used for communication by a LOT of people to justify keeping them alive!

Irish is dying, and in many areas it's already long dead.

English is our true national language. Irish will never be revived to become our first language. So as our national language, Irish is DEAD!

Heh. That is good timing considering I went for a run this evening!

That is your opinion and you're entitled to it but it's not dead yet. Naturally Latin is far more understood across the world. But it's not a language in daily use by people as their primary language.

Irish is. It's still the language of families, still a community language in some small parts of Ireland. So it's not dead.

kingchess · 31-05-2015 09:54PM

ThinkProgress wrote: »

People still speak latin, actually there are more latin speakers than Irish speakers in the world.

But both are still DEAD languages in the practical sense of mass communication!

So yes, I stand by my statement. DEAD language.

By your standards then the Welsh Language is also a dead language in the practical sense of mass communication,-despite the fact that 19% of Welsh people say they speak it,..anyway I think Irish should be optional in secondary school.

Deranged96 · 31-05-2015 09:57PM

Is everyone in agreement that it should be optional at second level with a big oul syllabus shake up?

ThinkProgress · 31-05-2015 10:00PM

Reiver wrote: »

Heh. That is good timing considering I went for a run this evening!

That is your opinion and you're entitled to it but it's not dead yet. Naturally Latin is far more understood across the world. But it's not a language in daily use by people as their primary language.

Irish is. It's still the language of families, still a community language in some small parts of Ireland. So it's not dead.

It shouldn't be classed as our national language.

There's nearly more polish speakers than Irish speakers in this country - I think there actually was up to a few years ago!

Maybe we should make polish compulsory in Irish schools too? :pac:

Reiver · 31-05-2015 10:10PM

ThinkProgress wrote: »

It shouldn't be classed as our national language.

There's nearly more polish speakers than Irish speakers in this country - I think there actually was up to a few years ago!

Maybe we should make polish compulsory in Irish schools too? :pac:

Well it is. Native speakers have the right to do their business in Irish if they so choose. It's a tongue that's been spoken the longest on our island and deserves to be protected in our constitution.

Polish is protected by the Polish constitution. Just as Irish is by ours.

ThinkProgress · 31-05-2015 10:11PM

Deranged96 wrote: »

Is everyone in agreement that it should be optional at second level with a big oul syllabus shake up?

Should be optional in primary too.

Or at least taught as a supplementary subject like art etc. But not as a core subject.

Why is primary different? If it's a national shift, then it affects children of all ages surely?

Reiver · 31-05-2015 10:12PM

Deranged96 wrote: »

Is everyone in agreement that it should be optional at second level with a big oul syllabus shake up?

Shake up wouldn't be the word I'd use. Completely scrap and rewrite it more like.

feargale · 31-05-2015 10:14PM

Shrap wrote: »

I have nothing against Aineoil at all, and he/she came back with a well thought out comment on what I had presented in my post. I think you are doing he/she down by not giving credit for he/she to be able to answer to my statement of fact. He/she did indeed answer rather well actually. Did you spot that?

BTW, "smokescreening", "dragging", etc. are not how I would describe my polite and personal/subjective posts here, but if you have a problem with them, as the mods say, report them.

:rolleyes:

An Ciarraioch · 31-05-2015 10:17PM

All that said, the Duolingo course is approaching the three-quarters of a million learner mark, so there does seem to be an interest in the language if approached in a similar manner.

tawnyowl · 31-05-2015 10:17PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yes, but we should do the right thing controversial or not.

The controversy would be is it the right thing or wrong thing.

ThinkProgress · 31-05-2015 10:17PM

Reiver wrote: »

Well it is. Native speakers have the right to do their business in Irish if they so choose. It's a tongue that's been spoken the longest on our island and deserves to be protected in our constitution.

Polish is protected by the Polish constitution. Just as Irish is by ours.

We should protect it, but that doesn't mean we should give it the status of main language. Because clearly it's not our main language, and never will be!

We should protect it like we protect other historical things. Like the way we protect the book of kells etc.

That's what the Irish language essentially is for the majority on this island - History!

But spending tens of millions trying (fruitlessly) to revive it as our main language? Foolishness!

ThinkProgress · 31-05-2015 10:20PM

tawnyowl wrote: »

The controversy would be is it the right thing or wrong thing.

If we had a referendum tomorrow, which side do you think would win?

The Irish language is failing.

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