The Irish language is failing.

Shrap · 31-05-2015 06:41PM

Madam wrote: »

Ah so I learned French despite myself?

I don't know. Did you? Honestly there's no need to get shirty about my opinion on the subject.

My own personal experience of the language was having 11 different Irish teachers from 1st class to 6th year, with all 3 main dialects represented (one or two completely unintelligible!), and all I could do by the end of it was recite liom, leat, leis, léi, linn, libh, leo and similar. German though, I had started in 1st yr secondary like everyone and so wasn't expected to already have the basics (came out fairly fluent and got a good honours mark). Irish, I was, and so struggled massively in secondary (like my own boys) when the basics had simply been repeating lists of pronouns and "Maire goes to the shop", "Sean likes cake", etc.

By age 15, I'd had enough and in typical teen fashion, swung back on my chair and put my feet up. Now, of course I can listen to Irish being spoken in the beauty of it's natural rhythm and flow and I somewhat resent my school experience having killed it for me. The same school experience that many, many thousands like me have had kill it for them. Something's gotta give, and I'd suggest it's the compulsory aspect. And quick.

(Also, I can't help finding spoken Irish excruciating when spoken by someone who has just learned through the school system. The pronunciation and phrasing is atrocious and it's painful to hear next to native speakers. )

ThinkProgress · 31-05-2015 06:52PM

Shrap wrote: »

I don't know. Did you? Honestly there's no need to get shirty about my opinion on the subject.

My own personal experience of the language was having 11 different Irish teachers from 1st class to 6th year, with all 4 main dialects represented (one or two completely unintelligible!), and all I could do by the end of it was recite liom, leat, leis, léi, linn, libh, leo and similar. German though, I had started in 1st yr secondary like everyone and so wasn't expected to already have the basics (came out fairly fluent and got a good honours mark). Irish, I was, and so struggled massively in secondary (like my own boys) when the basics had simply been repeating lists of pronouns and "Maire goes to the shop", "Sean likes cake", etc.

It's a great point.

In what other country could you make it all the way to school leaving age without being able to string a few coherent sentences together and still pass exams? lol

It's insane! I remember my oral irish exam, it was a complete train wreck. Yet they still passed me. They fed me the answers! :eek:

mickstupp · 31-05-2015 06:54PM

Not sure what the problem is with teaching it like foreign languages are taught. Knew more French after a year than Irish after 13. Reckon everyone would be fluent if it was done properly. I was on a bus a few years ago and someone on the radio mentioned the genitive case in Irish. Thirteen years and I never once heard a teacher mention the genitive case. Nor any of the others. Yet understanding how cases work helps enormously in learning structured languages.

I definitely don't think it should be compulsory, nor should it be a requirement for university entry unless the course is Irish. That's daft.

Although I never liked Irish, and have zero desire to learn it, I do take exception to the idea that all we should be learning are immediately practical things. Learning any language is intrinsically useful. Having it rammed down our throats in an incredibly inefficient way is the problem.

Shrap · 31-05-2015 07:06PM

ThinkProgress wrote: »

It's insane! I remember my oral irish exam, it was a complete train wreck. Yet they still passed me. They fed me the answers! :eek:

I actually puked with nerves before my Irish oral, and cried during it because I'd never opened my mouth to speak the sentences I'd learned at any stage in secondary. During the written, I couldn't make head nor tail of the questions, so I came out with an F.

I had genuinely and sincerely not wanted to learn Irish from age 12 on, and so I didn't. Not having it held me back though and I had to go to college in the UK due to failing Irish when I'd wanted to go to Cork. My eldest cannot apply to at least 3 colleges that he would have liked because he's taken a similar approach to the subject. Hmmm, can't think why we resent our "native" language....anyone else?! :pac:

Grayson · 31-05-2015 07:07PM

Reiver wrote: »

I didn't say it wasn't essential. Nor am I saying "wacky faeces" as you seem to view it. I'm just asking how many people use algebra, differentiation/integration or logarithms on a daily basis. In Ireland, probably less than speak Irish daily.

Arithmetic of course is used daily by everyone, but not mathematics. We do need the sciences to survive and prosper and advance. But we need the arts and culture to live.

Nice. So native speakers of Irish are fanatical nationalists now. You sound like some Yank in the 1880s talking about redskins out on the range. Wishing they'd stop the playacting and speak English.

Maths teaches you how to think. I use the skills I picked up doing maths every day both in my personal life and in my working life.

Maths is not just about logs, Sines and differential equations. It's about logical problem solving.

That's not to say that languages don't have their place. They do exercise a different part of the brain. But maths is by far the most valuable subject in second level. It teaches skills that people use most days, even if they don't realise it.

On a slightly separate note someone said earlier (I think it was this thread) that they worked in financial services and felt that they never used the maths they learned in school. All I could think was "that explains the banking crises"

Shrap · 31-05-2015 07:16PM

ThinkProgress wrote: »

In what other country could you make it all the way to school leaving age without being able to string a few coherent sentences together and still pass exams? lol

To add to my previous - I knew Irish was a lost cause for my eldest (my youngest has an exemption, thankfully) when early in 6th year his Irish teacher explained to me in despair that he was trying everything to get him to learn the basic sentences to scrape through the exams. He said to me "I've asked him to draw out the answers with cartoons, on the computer because he's so good at drawing and computers - I've even given him a list of what responses he needs to know", and after thanking him for his efforts I thought for feck sake, we're still at Sean and Maire go to the shops here, and as for responses, well we don't go to Mass. I stopped trying to tell him "how important" Irish was after that.

ThinkProgress · 31-05-2015 07:25PM

Shrap wrote: »

To add to my previous - I knew Irish was a lost cause for my eldest (my youngest has an exemption, thankfully) when early in 6th year his Irish teacher explained to me in despair that he was trying everything to get him to learn the basic sentences to scrape through the exams. He said to me "I've asked him to draw out the answers with cartoons, on the computer because he's so good at drawing and computers - I've even given him a list of what responses he needs to know", and after thanking him for his efforts I thought for feck sake, we're still at Sean and Maire go to the shops here, and as for responses, well we don't go to Mass. I stopped trying to tell him "how important" Irish was after that.

Yep, makes you wonder. It can't just be the poor teaching though. (not bashing irish teachers, it's mostly the system tbh)

If it's so natural to us, why do so many of us seem to have such an aversion to learning it?

I love my country and it's culture, but the language? I have no deep connection to it. Although I don't hate it.

Grayson · 31-05-2015 07:25PM

In my final year in school I tried to give up Irish. I had an exemption from the NUI colleges because I was born outside the 32 counties. So my parents approached my headmaster. He said I couldn't stop attending the classes so I'd sit in the back of the class and study other subjects.

Grayson · 31-05-2015 07:28PM

ThinkProgress wrote: »

Yep, makes you wonder. It can't just be the poor teaching though. (not bashing irish teachers, it's mostly the system tbh)

If it's so natural to us, why do so many of us seem to have such an aversion to learning it?

I love my country and it's culture, but the language? I have no deep connection to it. Although I don't hate it.

Part teachers, mainly curriculum. If I paid someone to spend an hour a day for 14 years to teach a kid a language and they couldn't string a sentence together, I'd demand my money back.

Shep_Dog · 31-05-2015 07:31PM

Madam wrote: »

Jesus! Only in Ireland would folk have a negativity about their national language(sometimes I despair of being Irish).

Our national language, is in fact, English. Somebody forgot to update the constitution.

demanufactured · 31-05-2015 07:32PM

It's a dead language.

Shrap · 31-05-2015 07:39PM

ThinkProgress wrote: »

Yep, makes you wonder. It can't just be the poor teaching though. (not bashing irish teachers, it's mostly the system tbh)

Yes, honestly, this teacher was the nicest guy! Too young to be sounding as burned out as he did though. I was full of empathy for his position but couldn't hope to retrieve the sense of achievement my son was meant to feel in knowing enough of the curriculum to pass at that stage. We decided his time was better spent trying to study something else at the back of Irish class (which proved a distraction in both directions unfortunately). The system is truly untenable, and it certainly can't be blamed on the likes of my 2nd generation aversion to the curricular enforcement.

If it's so natural to us, why do so many of us seem to have such an aversion to learning it?

I love my country and it's culture, but the language? I have no deep connection to it. Although I don't hate it.

Y'know, I think I was always aware (although I'd never heard native Irish spoken during primary) that this was no way to learn a language. I was precocious enough alright, but it certainly occured to me that I'd never heard Irish except on Nuacht and I was already aware that to speak/understand it properly, I'd have to go away from my parents to the scary Gaeltacht (something they would never be able to afford). I was uneasy about the fact nobody around me spoke it, at an early age - 8 at the latest. All downhill from there I'm afraid, and I don't see what's changed much.

Aineoil · 31-05-2015 07:39PM

Grayson wrote: »

In my final year in school I tried to give up Irish. I had an exemption from the NUI colleges because I was born outside the 32 counties. So my parents approached my headmaster. He said I couldn't stop attending the classes so I'd sit in the back of the class and study other subjects.

In fairness that wasn't the headmaster being awkward. The directive from

the Department of Education and Science in primary school is that children have to

partake in oral Irish lessons. I don't know about secondary schools.

I'm not sure where the DES based that rationale on?

Iwasfrozen · 31-05-2015 07:40PM

Grayson wrote: »

On a slightly separate note someone said earlier (I think it was this thread) that they worked in financial services and felt that they never used the maths they learned in school. All I could think was "that explains the banking crises"

It's absolutely impossible that anyone can work in finance without using secondary school maths.

Bored_lad · 31-05-2015 07:50PM

Shrap wrote: »

I actually puked with nerves before my Irish oral, and cried during it because I'd never opened my mouth to speak the sentences I'd learned at any stage in secondary. During the written, I couldn't make head nor tail of the questions, so I came out with an F.

I had genuinely and sincerely not wanted to learn Irish from age 12 on, and so I didn't. Not having it held me back though and I had to go to college in the UK due to failing Irish when I'd wanted to go to Cork. My eldest cannot apply to at least 3 colleges that he would have liked because he's taken a similar approach to the subject. Hmmm, can't think why we resent our "native" language....anyone else?! :pac:

Have you ever considered you failed Irish and can't speak the language because you quit. At the age of 12 you just decided to stop working and not try and learn if you had done the same thing in the 6/7 other subjects that you sat for the leaving cert I can't imagine you would have passed either. You can blame poor teaching and the out dated curriculum and say the language is dead but you really need to look at yourself and take responsibility for your own actions.

It is people like you who are the reason the language is struggling you can not expect to be fluent in any language unless you work at it. You obviously don't respect the language and have passed this on to your son thus limiting his opportunities in life such as where he will go to college etc.

Iwasfrozen · 31-05-2015 07:54PM

Bored_lad wrote: »

Have you ever considered you failed Irish and can't speak the language because you quit. At the age of 12 you just decided to stop working and not try and learn if you had done the same thing in the 6/7 other subjects that you sat for the leaving cert I can't imagine you would have passed either. You can blame poor teaching and the out dated curriculum and say the language is dead but you really need to look at yourself and take responsibility for your own actions.

It is people like you who are the reason the language is struggling you can not expect to be fluent in any language unless you work at it. You obviously don't respect the language and have passed this on to your son thus limiting his opportunities in life such as where he will go to college etc.

Make it optional, those who want to "respect it" (your definition of respect) can do so. The rest of us can put that time to better use.

Berating someone for not putting effort into something they are forced to do is a pretty crappy thing to do tbh.

4zn76tysfajdxp · 31-05-2015 07:57PM

demanufactured wrote: »

It's a dead language.

It's not a dead language.

riclad · 31-05-2015 08:01PM

i never spoke any irish, we just read books ,short storys in irish .
it was the one subject i had no interest in at all.
The books we had were all about farmers ,rural people ,people fighting the english rule .or about the famine .
The writing was very old fashioned ,
it was designed as if to show anyone who spoke irish was narrow minded ,
english hating or poor .
eg of no relevance to modern life or of any relevance to someone from an urban area .
There was no writing about anyone that lived after 1970 .

We just had written exams as far as i can remember .
I Regard irish as something like poetry, folk music , playing the fiddle ,
part of our culture ,
it would be better if we made it voluntary,
after year 1 you can learn irish ,or do another subject like, french,
chemistry,
eg a modern subject which might be of use to you when you are looking for work.

I think young people rebel against it because they think irish is a dead language ,
its badly taught ,
and its of no use as to getting a job ,
unless you want to be a teacher, or work in a job that requires the irish language .
IT,S not a spoken language in most parts of the country .
Yes a lot of people speak it in the gaeltacht ,so i don,t know if its regarded as a dead language by academics .

Reiver · 31-05-2015 08:06PM

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/column-gaeilge-is-a-part-of-our-culture-%E2%80%93-how-its-taught-matters-836132-Mar2013/

Interesting comments on the flawed education for it already in place. At least reform is happening, the oral exam is worth 40% now but that's in 6th year, needs to be a change from primary school and upwards.

Shrap · 31-05-2015 08:08PM

Bored_lad wrote: »

Have you ever considered you failed Irish and can't speak the language because you quit. At the age of 12 you just decided to stop working and not try and learn if you had done the same thing in the 6/7 other subjects that you sat for the leaving cert I can't imagine you would have passed either. You can blame poor teaching and the out dated curriculum and say the language is dead but you really need to look at yourself and take responsibility for your own actions.

It is people like you who are the reason the language is struggling you can not expect to be fluent in any language unless you work at it. You obviously don't respect the language and have passed this on to your son thus limiting his opportunities in life such as where he will go to college etc.

Ha ha, thanks! I find it quite superbly Irish that you could have a go at a 12 year old Irish me for not adequately responding (in your view) to the gin-soaked Irish teacher renowned for taking long toilet breaks and then being easily distracted by the teenage side-tracking onto issues such as sexism in the workbooks, the pedantry of pronunciation and grammatical considerations.

Or perhaps you could blame the 15 year old me for the next unfortunate Irish teacher who had a nervous breakdown in front of our class (properly burned out) and threw a class mate up against a wall? Thereafter, he droned out Peig at great length while we creatively scribed on the book, changing her name to "b1tch". But yeah, blame the youth. Good plan. A well trod plan, mind you.

It is absurd of you to indicate that I didn't try my utmost with my own children. I laboured over their Irish homework with them throughout primary school and fobbed off their "what USE is this?" with "Well, it's our language and you might not get to go to the college you want unless we do this homework...". By the time my youngest hit secondary (last year) I was ready to explain to the principal that I personally couldn't do another 6 years of Irish homework with someone who hadn't a notion, through NO FAULT of my own. She rather aptly said (as my kids are older than her's) "Well, in fairness you've actually done more years studying Irish than I have, and I'm an Irish teacher". She totally understood. Don't see why you can't make the same leap of imagination as to how someone might have another generation of Irish language students in despair over the subject, but maybe you're a little hung-up on it.

Aineoil · 31-05-2015 08:10PM

I speak Irish fluently. My husband is a native speaker.

Do I care whether people speak Irish or not? I don't.

I think the school curriculum should be changed to reflect what people feel about the language.

We need a curriculum that appreciates the language without pretending that we are all going to speak it.

I feel sad that it has come to this but I like to think I'm a realist.

Shrap · 31-05-2015 08:14PM

Aineoil wrote: »

I speak Irish fluently. My husband is a native speaker.

Do I care whether people speak Irish or not? I don't.

I think the school curriculum should be changed to reflect what people feel about the language.

We need a curriculum that appreciates the language without pretending that we are all going to speak it.

I feel sad that it has come to this but I like to think I'm a realist.

Jaysus, well said. And thanks.

Ticking and Bashing · 31-05-2015 08:17PM

How is Gaeilge taught any differently from any other language! languages are usually taught the same - ie there's an oral, aural, written exam and are all equally forced on you! So any complaints re Gaeilge being taught badly is errrmm... An excuse!!!
Caithfidh muid iarracht níos mó Gaeilge a úsaid

Nár úsaid muid í i rith an reifreann - vótáil tá!!

Shrap · 31-05-2015 08:20PM

Ticking and Bashing wrote: »

How is Gaeilge taught any differently from any other language! languages are usually taught the same - ie there's an oral, aural, written exam and are all equally forced on you! So any complaints re Gaeilge being taught badly is errrmm... An excuse!!!
Caithfidh muid iarracht níos mó Gaeilge a úsaid Nár úsaid muid í i rith an reifreann - vótáil tá!!

Great. Maith thú *learned from son's primary work-book*

NO EXCUSE!!! IRLAND UBER ALLES!....Oh wait, sorry, I slip into German so easily......

Grayson · 31-05-2015 08:20PM

Aineoil wrote: »

In fairness that wasn't the headmaster being awkward. The directive from

the Department of Education and Science in primary school is that children have to

partake in oral Irish lessons. I don't know about secondary schools.

I'm not sure where the DES based that rationale on?

It was secondary school. the headmaster said the school got funding for every kid that did Irish. So I had to stay in the class but I could study whatever I want.

Shep_Dog · 31-05-2015 08:28PM

Reiver wrote: »

Interesting comments on the flawed education for it already in place. At least reform is happening, the oral exam is worth 40% now but that's in 6th year, needs to be a change from primary school and upwards.

The greatest reform of all would be to make learning Irish voluntary. But that would require the Irish lobby to show confidence in the merits of Irish.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 31-05-2015 08:28PM

Ticking and Bashing wrote: »

How is Gaeilge taught any differently from any other language! languages are usually taught the same - ie there's an oral, aural, written exam and are all equally forced on you! So any complaints re Gaeilge being taught badly is errrmm... An excuse!!!
Caithfidh muid iarracht níos mó Gaeilge a úsaid Nár úsaid muid í i rith an reifreann - vótáil tá!!

No, they're not. It varies denpending on whether the person is learnign it as their first langauge or not.

Also, your point that the way langauges are taught is to pass oral, aural and wiritten exams is somewhat daft, not to mention endemic of the problem. Some poeple learn lagauges for reasons of travel, relocation or even just as a hobby - no exams required - and for some reason, that idea is alien to the peoeple who think that the way Irish is taugh is in some way positive.

ThinkProgress · 31-05-2015 08:28PM

Alice Gifted Zenith wrote: »

It's not a dead language.

If it's not dead, it's certainly on life support.

Nobody wants to be the one to turn the switch off. They'll be labelled as unpatriotic or a west brit or something stupid like that! :P

Aineoil · 31-05-2015 08:30PM

Shrap wrote: »

Jaysus, well said. And thanks.

I'm just fed up of the crap about the language.

If you felt Peig murdered you - fine. (and you'd be ancient like me if you studied Peig)

If you hate Irish - fine.

If you like Irish - fine.

I really don't care.

Bad teaching of Irish? I could say the same of maths.

The teaching of maths in the 1970's was just awful.

It was all computation and no problem solving.

NIMAN · 31-05-2015 08:31PM

My little boy of 5 seems to be grasping Irish fairly well, not sure how much they teach it in junior infants? My OH tries to chat to him the odd time in Irish as she would like him to have a good knowledge of it.

As for me, and I speak as someone coming from outside the RoI education system, if I had my choice I would much rather he learned German, Spanish or French rather than Irish. I don't believe in its compulsory status.

The Irish language is failing.

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