The Irish language is failing.

Wibbs · 31-05-2015 04:02PM

Deranged96 wrote: »

Never heard this tidbit before, interesting.

Yea it's a funny one alright D, here's a (tiny) page on the matter including a pic of some common phrases in Irish English and Latin written up for her. Actually she was a bit of a polyglot. She had various levels of command of Latin, English of course, Greek(she was particularly notable here, having as barely a child translated a couple of books from Greek into Latin), French, Spanish, Flemish, Italian and a few others more local including Cornish. This faculty for languages was noted by visitors to her court. She was an extremely educated individual, head and shoulders above the vast majority who held that post.

Being a monoglot is quite the recent thing. Most cultures in the ancient word would have citizens who would have a command of at least two languages. Your Roman spoke Greek for the most part(Greek being a lingua franca for much of the ancient world), but naturally had Latin too and whatever local language(s) if they were from further afield in the empire. The ancient Greeks seemed to be an odd one out here as they seemed to be sniffy about non Greeks and their languages.

Fast forward to the zenith of the Irish church in the early medieval and your average monk would know Latin, Old Irish and some Greek and whatever local language of the area he fetched up on in his missionary work. Some even had knowledge of Hebrew. Indeed the Pope's own Greek expert when he met John Scottus(the bald lad on the old five punt note) was flabbergasted to discover Johnny's expertise in Greek was higher than his own. This barbarian? Impossible! kind of thing. What's always impressed me about this period is the Irish as a culture went from an almost entirely oral (and quite isolated)culture to a written one in such a very short time and that written culture was extremely sophisticated out of the gate. Though maybe one explanation for this is the memory capacities of folks living in oral cultures. Julius Caesar noted this in his travels and dealings with the Celts. He mused that their prodigious memories were down to not having books, so they had to rely on them more. He further mused that Romans had lost something in this transition, though understood and praised the virtues of literacy. Many of the ancient Greek thinkers thought something similar apparently and were a little suspicious of books and writing, feeling that being written down it was somehow immutable and harder to debate. Much later on, a giant of intellect Leonardo Da Vinci was very odd in that he never published a book. Wasn't into it at all. He did design a frontispiece of a book for a mate who twisted his arm, but that was it. It would be akin to I dunno Stephen Hawking avoiding computers and the internet.

The English lad the Venerable Bede writing around the time of the early Irish church noted a few languages in common usage in what was to become England; Saxon, Irish, Latin, Pictish and Welsh. Chances are quite high a number of people in the church or traders would have some facility in more than one tongue.

I have a book somewhere in my gaff written by a French dude of his travels in Ireland in the 18th century who was quite shocked to find that Latin of all things served him well as a means of speaking with local Irish folks beyond the cities.

gravity9.81 · 31-05-2015 04:03PM

Time to let Irish go to the history books and stop wasting money and time on it

irishlad12345 · 31-05-2015 04:10PM

scrap it as a requirements for college and make it optional for the leaving cert . replace the language requirements to a 2nd language that can be irish or french etc. the amount of times i talked to classmate who were geniuses at maths physic and the like and were stressing the wont get there course because there irish is poor and they might not pass is ridiculous. all irish is in the leaving cert is needless stress on a already stressful year my classmates dread it because it is forced on them and is of no use to them after 2nd level the reason it is failing is because it has become associated with stress and hatred in school making it optional wont revive the language but it wouldn't be a bad start

Shrap · 31-05-2015 04:22PM

Was in the Donegal Gaeltacht recently for a wedding and nearly didn't make it on time as I got totally turned around by the signposts in Irish! No English on them at all, so missed a vital turn-off

. Talking to some of the young locals from there at the afters, I was telling them I hadn't a word, even after being force fed it through school......turns out they hadn't a word either. It's dying a death, and considering my eldest just decided not to sit the exam in LC at all so that a no-grade wouldn't even show up on his results, and he's not alone in his class doing that, I can't see how it can be justified for much longer. I hugely resent the waste of his time over the last 6 years when he could have been learning something more useful.

ThinkProgress · 31-05-2015 04:35PM

Wibbs wrote: »

They said the same back in the 80's regarding Japanese. Chinese fluency would be OK as an aim in of itself, but although it's spoken by billions the various Chinese languages are almost exclusively spoken by Chinese people themselves. English, Spanish, French are very different in that more people speak those languages either as a first or second language than are English, Spanish, or French people. There are alone 200 plus millions speaking English in the US compared to 60 plus millions of English people. They're more universal languages, Chinese of whatever flavour isn't. Indeed learning English is a growing thing in China.

Plus Chinese and similar languages are tonal, so will likely never become universal. A person from say Mexico speaking very locally inflected English can be generally understood by a person from say India speaking English. With Chinese that would be much harder. Plus their written language while lovely an all, is massively impractical.

I'm hoping you understood my statement about learning Chinese to be slightly tongue in cheek!?

However, even with the valid points you made, it would still be more beneficial to develop some rudimentary conversation skills in that language than to do so in irish.

It's not unrealistic to think that Chinese people could out number irish speakers sometime in the near future.

Hell, it might even be wiser to gain some knowledge of a computer language rather than irish! (Again more practical use of time and money)

I'd much rather see resources spent on improving national computer literacy and knowledge than on learning irish.

But I could probably think of a million things that would be more logical than learning irish.

For some people I don't think logic plays a big role in their relationship with that language.

It's mostly rapped up in nationalism and dare I say a touch of xenophobia (particularly towards the English) <--- yep I went there!

Grayson · 31-05-2015 04:51PM

therabbittest wrote: »

Most of all, I hate the snobbery and elitism of some Irish speakers. I hate that I was consistently shamed by students (and teachers) for "not being really Irish", as if that were to somehow galvanise me into learning it. In my school (at least) there were vouchers and awards given to those who did well in Irish that were not given for any other language or subject. There were special badges for Irish speakers that almost went as far as creating an overclass of Irish speakers. I left school with somewhat of a hatred for the language, a hatred cultivated over a decade+ of bad teaching, but mostly from the "ultimate" Irish citizens whose glory I had to bask in.

I have an Irish passport, have lived here all my life, and by any reasonable standard, am Irish. About the language, I couldn't give a **** if it dies.

You left out the bonus points they gave to people who completed exams though Irish. What was it? An extra 10% at one stage?

BTW, I understand the snobbery. I was born in the UK, to Irish parents, and moved here before I started school. Thanks to an illness that left me a little bit deaf, I never really picked up the local accent. The amount of teasing and bullying I got over it was ridiculous. This extended to Irish too. I was once told that since I wasn't Irish the least I could do was learn it. This was by an adult who was a fluent speaker. I was 10.

People will say that the snobbery doesn't exist but only because they haven't experienced it. It's like when a white middle class american says racism doesn't exist.

Reiver · 31-05-2015 04:52PM

Grayson wrote: »

You left out the bonus points they gave to people who completed exams though Irish. What was it? An extra 10% at one stage?

The universities give bonus points for honours maths as well.

Madam · 31-05-2015 04:54PM

Shrap wrote: »

Was in the Donegal Gaeltacht recently for a wedding and nearly didn't make it on time as I got totally turned around by the signposts in Irish! No English on them at all, so missed a vital turn-off . Talking to some of the young locals from there at the afters, I was telling them I hadn't a word, even after being force fed it through school......turns out they hadn't a word either. It's dying a death, and considering my eldest just decided not to sit the exam in LC at all so that a no-grade wouldn't even show up on his results, and he's not alone in his class doing that, I can't see how it can be justified for much longer. I hugely resent the waste of his time over the last 6 years when he could have been learning something more useful.

You weren't in the Gaeltacht then!

Madam · 31-05-2015 04:59PM

They do say though, if you can learn one other language it's easier to learn another. I have a niece who is French she speaks two other languages other than her own. On a visit to Ireland with me, she heard a smattering of Irish in Donegal(and the odd phrase was taught to her), on a visit to Connemara a bus driver was speaking to a local in Irish - she picked up on the different dialect right away - I guess you do have to have an ear for language. Keep Irish for those who want to learn or at least make it relevant to children.

Reiver · 31-05-2015 05:02PM

ThinkProgress wrote: »

However, even with the valid points you made, it would still be more beneficial to develop some rudimentary conversation skills in that language than to do so in irish.

Which variant of Chinese would you like to focus on? And how much would it cost to import teachers and integrate them into our schools system?

People seem to view languages just by numbers. "Oh this one has 300 million speakers, this one has 80 million". Are you actually going to talk to the entire population of native speakers?

Talking about logic. I suppose you feel those learning Quecha because their grandparents or great-grandparents spoke it is just 'nationalism' and "xenophobia". Why don't they just speak Spanish?

It's part of our culture and unlike other countries who make English mandatory, we have a language of our own that we can learn. The education system needs reform, no arguments there but calling the language dead or useless is just being facetious.

I guess learning history isn't logical and we just focus on practical things like computer programming and engineering.

ThinkProgress · 31-05-2015 05:08PM

Reiver wrote: »

The universities give bonus points for honours maths as well.

Ridiculous comparison!

Maths is interwoven through the fabric of practically everything we do. It's used by every nation and region in the world. It's essential.

Irish is a dead/dying sparsely used language, kept alive by a bunch of fanatical nationalists with their heads in the sand! (ok maybe a touch harsh but if you can say crazy sh*t - then I can too!)

Grayson · 31-05-2015 05:11PM

Reiver wrote: »

The universities give bonus points for honours maths as well.

To be fair, that wasn't as much. If you got a C1 the extra points were minimal. You got an extra 10% in every paper you did through Irish.
I can understand giving bonus points for maths in certain situations. Like for science/maths degrees.

Reiver · 31-05-2015 05:12PM

Grayson wrote: »

To be fair, that wasn't as much. If you got a C1 the extra points were minimal. You got an extra 10% in every paper you did through Irish.
I can understand giving bonus points for maths in certain situations. Like for science/maths degrees.

I got a C1 and got 10 extra points. Nothing to be sniffed at. And I went on to do humanities.

Shrap · 31-05-2015 05:14PM

Madam wrote: »

You weren't in the Gaeltacht then!

Yeah I was actually. I happen to know where I was - wasn't that drunk

. I'm talking about the younger generation. Their parents all spoke Irish but the children weren't speaking it even at home. Couple of families there were conversing away as Gaeilge but none of the young wans, and like I said, most of them couldn't speak it.

Reiver · 31-05-2015 05:15PM

ThinkProgress wrote: »

Ridiculous comparison!

Maths is interwoven through the fabric of practically everything we do. It's used by every nation and region in the world. It's essential.

Irish is a dead/dying sparsely used language, kept alive by a bunch of fanatical nationalists with their heads in the sand! (ok maybe a touch harsh but if you can say crazy sh*t - then I can too!)

I didn't say it wasn't essential. Nor am I saying "wacky faeces" as you seem to view it. I'm just asking how many people use algebra, differentiation/integration or logarithms on a daily basis. In Ireland, probably less than speak Irish daily.

Arithmetic of course is used daily by everyone, but not mathematics. We do need the sciences to survive and prosper and advance. But we need the arts and culture to live.

Nice. So native speakers of Irish are fanatical nationalists now. You sound like some Yank in the 1880s talking about redskins out on the range. Wishing they'd stop the playacting and speak English.

Un Croissant · 31-05-2015 05:17PM

I went to secondary school with lads that had come up through the Irish primary school. Even they couldn't speak decent Irish. Mostly due to the fact that they just didn't like learning or using it. It's especially hard when your friends all speak English.

Deranged96 · 31-05-2015 05:33PM

ThinkProgress wrote: »

It's mostly rapped up in nationalism and dare I say a touch of xenophobia (particularly towards the English) <--- yep I went there!

Haven't heard much rap songs through the Irish language, can't see much of a market...

It's a sad day when you can't have an interest in your country's indigenous language without it being equated to a hatred of England.

ThinkProgress · 31-05-2015 05:35PM

Reiver wrote: »

Which variant of Chinese would you like to focus on? And how much would it cost to import teachers and integrate them into our schools system?

People seem to view languages just by numbers. "Oh this one has 300 million speakers, this one has 80 million". Are you actually going to talk to the entire population of native speakers?

Talking about logic. I suppose you feel those learning Quecha because their grandparents or great-grandparents spoke it is just 'nationalism' and "xenophobia". Why don't they just speak Spanish?

It's part of our culture and unlike other countries who make English mandatory, we have a language of our own that we can learn. The education system needs reform, no arguments there but calling the language dead or useless is just being facetious.

I guess learning history isn't logical and we just focus on practical things like computer programming and engineering.

Even if we took only the money currently allocated to maintenance and restoration of the irish language (just these funds and nothing more), and reallocated them to something more worthwhile, this would be a step in the right direction.

Your attempts to drag my points into semantics over which dialects etc and other peripheral aspects is just an obvious attempt to deflect. I don't get drawn into that kind of bs!

Language IS about numbers, wether you like it or not. If 20 million people spoke Irish there would no problems keeping it alive.

No it's not being facetious. The language is not relevant for it's key purpose - COMMUNICATION!

We already have a perfectly good language that we ALL speak fluently. The main reason for keeping Irish alive is about nationalism and cultural pride.

I have no issues with people being proud of their culture, but not at the expense of practical matters. And clearly the majority of this country would appear to be of a similar mindset - considering the language is continuing to decline in popularity. (I guess practical matters are ultimately more important to most people, most of the time!)

And history does have it's practical applications too btw. It's not redundant to understand your history, as it can help us make better decisions in the present and future. (among other things)

Knowing your history is a good thing. Living in the past is NOT!

PopePalpatine · 31-05-2015 05:45PM

Reiver wrote: »

The universities give bonus points for honours maths as well.

Honours Maths is actually useful.

Reiver · 31-05-2015 05:50PM

ThinkProgress wrote: »

Even if we took only the money currently allocated to maintenance and restoration of the irish language (just these funds and nothing more), and reallocated them to something more worthwhile, this would be a step in the right direction.

Your attempts to drag my points into semantics over which dialects etc and other peripheral aspects is just an obvious attempt to deflect. I don't get drawn into that kind of bs!

Language IS about numbers, wether you like it or not. If 20 million people spoke Irish there would no problems keeping it alive.

No it's not being facetious. The language is not relevant for it's key purpose - COMMUNICATION!

We already have a perfectly good language that we ALL speak fluently. The main reason for keeping Irish alive is about nationalism and cultural pride.

I have no issues with people being proud of their culture, but not at the expense of practical matters. And clearly the majority of this country would appear to be of a similar mindset - considering the language is continuing to decline in popularity. (I guess practical matters are ultimately more important to most people, most of the time!)

And history does have it's practical applications too btw. It's not redundant to understand your history, as it can help us make better decisions in the present and future. (among other things)

Knowing your history is a good thing. Living in the past is NOT!

I'll refer you to my last post.

Reiver · 31-05-2015 05:51PM

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Honours Maths is actually useful.

Pretty subjective there. Not for me. I'm an English teacher and haven't used it since the LC. Same with most of the people I went to school with. The only ones using it are studying science or engineering.

Shep_Dog · 31-05-2015 05:58PM

Deranged96 wrote: »

Please, show example of such bigotry in the essay.

His conceit of there being an 'Irish Race'? His dismissal of anyone showing an interest in English culture as merely imitating the English? His attack on English literature: [FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]"We must set our face sternly against penny dreadfuls, shilling shockers, and still more, the garbage of vulgar English weeklies like Bow Bells and the Police Intelligence. Every house should have a copy of Moore and Davis....[/FONT]"

when someone reads a historical document, you read it context, in the case of Hyde's essay

The context is the Gaelic Revival which reinvented and re-packaged Irish culture for political reasons.

What toxic legacy has Hyde imparted on us?

The absurd notion of the 'Irish Race'. Compulsory Irish. The aim of restoring Irish as common language of Ireland.

ThinkProgress · 31-05-2015 06:00PM

Reiver wrote: »

I didn't say it wasn't essential. Nor am I saying "wacky faeces" as you seem to view it. I'm just asking how many people use algebra, differentiation/integration or logarithms on a daily basis. In Ireland, probably less than speak Irish daily.

Arithmetic of course is used daily by everyone, but not mathematics. We do need the sciences to survive and prosper and advance. But we need the arts and culture to live.

Nice. So native speakers of Irish are fanatical nationalists now. You sound like some Yank in the 1880s talking about redskins out on the range. Wishing they'd stop the playacting and speak English.

You're missing the point talking about algebra etc. Promoting maths by giving a bonus, is logical if you need more students entering maths-based subjects. It was my understanding that we were lacking enough numbers of students entering certain fields at one point, this was the motive behind it.

What is the logic behind giving a bonus for proficiency in a dead language? Would be better to create jobs in a more valuable sector.

I don't think all Irish speakers are fanatics. I was joking. Perhaps a bit up their own ar*e in relation to the importance and relevance of the Irish language though!

Deranged96 wrote: »

Haven't heard much rap songs through the Irish language, can't see much of a market...

It's a sad day when you can't have an interest in your country's indigenous language without it being equated to a hatred of England.

I didn't say that was everyone's motive, or even most people's. But there is certainly an element of that among some people.

If a person can't see how english is more important to learn than Irish, and can't understand why maths is more important too etc. That person is not thinking clearly. Or they are being obtuse!

We have no national NEED to speak Irish fluently. Therefore there is no need for a national plan. And no need for it to be compulsory in schools either.

If people want to learn it as a pastime or hobby - great. No problem with that at all. I'm not anti-Irish language. I'm anti-time wasting. I'm anti-money wasting!

Being pragmatic is not the same as being unpatriotic. That's the thing many people get confused with this issue.

ThinkProgress · 31-05-2015 06:02PM

Reiver wrote: »

I'll refer you to my last post.

Lazy!

It's ok, I didn't expect much of a coherent retort anyway! :pac:

Shrap · 31-05-2015 06:09PM

Reiver wrote: »

Pretty subjective there. Not for me. I'm an English teacher and haven't used it since the LC. Same with most of the people I went to school with. The only ones using it are studying science or engineering.

....and that was the only reason the govt. started the initiative of giving a bonus for higher maths. I well remember it was to encourage the uptake so as to funnel more students towards the science area and in turn, feed our developing pharmaceutical industry for it's potential for massive foreign investment.

I understand the love people have for the Irish language, and the despair at seeing so many set against encouraging it, but tbh, the sooner it stops being forced on kids in secondary, the sooner the love and encouragement to learn it will develop. You don't develop a love for a language when you've no choice but to sit and learn stock sentences and phrases to scrape yourself through a compulsory exam. Instead, you develop a resentment which will be the death of it and that's a massive pity. I say that as someone who doesn't speak a word of it (well, a couple of random phrases such as "An bhfuil cead agam dul go dtí an leithreas?").

Madam · 31-05-2015 06:20PM

Jesus! Only in Ireland would folk have a negativity about their national language(sometimes I despair of being Irish).

Madam · 31-05-2015 06:22PM

Shrap wrote: »

....and that was the only reason the govt. started the initiative of giving a bonus for higher maths. I well remember it was to encourage the uptake so as to funnel more students towards the science area and in turn, feed our developing pharmaceutical industry for it's potential for massive foreign investment.

I understand the love people have for the Irish language, and the despair at seeing so many set against encouraging it, but tbh, the sooner it stops being forced on kids in secondary, the sooner the love and encouragement to learn it will develop. You don't develop a love for a language when you've no choice but to sit and learn stock sentences and phrases to scrape yourself through a compulsory exam. Instead, you develop a resentment which will be the death of it and that's a massive pity. I say that as someone who doesn't speak a word of it (well, a couple of random phrases such as "An bhfuil cead agam dul go dtí an leithreas?").

Ah so I learned French despite myself?

ThinkProgress · 31-05-2015 06:25PM

Madam wrote: »

Jesus! Only in Ireland would folk have a negativity about their national language(sometimes I despair of being Irish).

When it's forced on you. Badly thought. And not essential for day-to-day living. Why would there be much positive feelings towards it?

Carlos Orange · 31-05-2015 06:34PM

Madam wrote: »

Jesus! Only in Ireland would folk have a negativity about their national language(sometimes I despair of being Irish).

Only in Ireland would there be people who think the language spoken by a couple of percent of the population is the national language.

bohsman · 31-05-2015 06:35PM

Reiver wrote: »

Pretty subjective there. Not for me. I'm an English teacher and haven't used it since the LC. Same with most of the people I went to school with. The only ones using it are studying science or engineering.

Surely a good knowledge of maths has helped you at some stage since? If not you there are a lot more people who have gotten more use out of higher level maths than higher level Irish over the years.

I don't read many books so clearly my higher level English has gone to waste, haven't used it at all.

I have a lot of time for the Irish language but don't speak it anywhere near the levels I would like, I failed all through school before learning a lot at the Gaeltaecht summer camps. I'm told that I gave up pretty much straight away as a 5 year old when I tried to use Irish outside school and nobody understood me.

The Irish language is failing.

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