The Irish language is failing.

Niemoj · 30-05-2015 11:42AM

I'd hate for Irish to die out but at the same time it is so badly taught in schools that it probably will continue to decline.

I started learning Chinese for the fun of it and so far it's great stuff haha.

我是爱尔兰人！

ressem · 30-05-2015 11:43AM

looksee wrote: »

I am a non-Irish-speaking Brit - though I can more or less understand quite a lot of things like phrases and place names etc. My kids grew up learning Irish by the 'here is an essay in Irish, learn it by heart' method, which was utterly pointless.

Some people have a gift for languages - I don't - let them opt to learn Irish in Secondary school, because they want to. All younger children learning Irish in the way they do at the moment, as part of daily conversation in primary school, would give them an idea of whether they want to continue on with it.

It would be better to teach children good, grammatical, accurate English for communication purposes, and let those who want to, develop their Irish. The end result would hopefully be a core of people who are interested in, and enthusiastic about Irish, rather than a whole lot of people who have no time for it at all.

Hopefully things have changed, but the teachers' primary priority seemed to be a silent 'standard' classroom, as though we were in training to be cloistered monks transcribing religious texts.
If our spoken english relied on the curriculum, we'd be communicating with tongue clicks and arm gestures.

Kids aren't thick, and can remember lyrics, tunes and tones of a hundred songs in non-native languages, which remain for decades after the modh coinnealach has rotted away; only the rhyme/incantation/open sesame "an bhfuil cead agam dul amach go dtí an leithreas, más é do thoil é" and maybe the national anthem (half understood) remain.

30-05-2015 11:44AM

pablomakaveli wrote: »

I hated Irish in school but since i left i've come to regret not being able to speak it fluently and learning it is something i hope to achieve at some point.

You can always make the argument that minority languages like Irish, Welsh, Basque etc are pointless because English, French etc are more widespread but thats sort of missing the point. You let the language die and it's gone. Is it right for us to make that decision for future generations.

The approach to the language in Ireland is completely wrong. The way it's thought for a start is ridiculous. How can you learn a language by reading poetry and stories and answering questions or learning off an essay about a "timpiste mór". I learned more French in secondary school than Irish because French was taught correctly.

Also laws like having to translate governement documents into Irish is a waste of resources. Take half that money and invest it in more useful and productive programs to promote the language like say conversational Irish classes for adults. The rest can go back into the health service or education where more money is needed anyway.

Good post (although I suspect there were fewer students in your French class). I'd like the money put into halving the size of classes to, say, 15 students and thus make it possible for all Irish classes to be conversation-based. That would be a game changer.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 30-05-2015 11:45AM

Deleted User wrote: »

This statement is profoundly untrue. Sums are essential, and kids learn them in primary school. In secondary school, quadratic equations, calculus, trigonometry and so, so much else are what the state spends its money "teaching" kids. The vast, vast majority of adults do very well in life without ever using any of that stuff from the day they leave school.

The post I was responding to specifically stated "primary" school, so in effect we're saying the same thing.

As for the rest, I'd be all in favour of making maths optional in secondary school on the basis that, if kids don;t have enough maths ability for everyday live by the age of 13 or so, then something has gone wrong and forcing them to do geometry is not going to resolve the issue.

4zn76tysfajdxp · 30-05-2015 12:13PM

The thought of Irish being confirmed to be on the way out is saddening to me, I must say.

astrofool · 30-05-2015 01:15PM

It's not part of our daily lives and hasn't been for decades, walk around and the only Irish seen is on the street signs, and maybe the odd pub name trying to be a bit twee (and a choice on Bank of Ireland ATMs), shops, products, the internet, are absent of Irish.

It's also a bit disingenuous to blame the teaching of it, the same teachers manage other subjects perfectly fine, the will to learn Irish, especially when forced, just isn't there with school going kids.

If the biggest argument for keeping it is that it would be a "shame" if it disappeared, then it's already dead. I'd agree that there is a rhythmic quality to the language which is useful in the arts, but then, so does ancient Greek and Latin.

Dirty Dingus McGee · 30-05-2015 01:34PM

astrofool wrote: »

It's not part of our daily lives and hasn't been for decades, walk around and the only Irish seen is on the street signs, and maybe the odd pub name trying to be a bit twee (and a choice on Bank of Ireland ATMs), shops, products, the internet, are absent of Irish.

It's also a bit disingenuous to blame the teaching of it, the same teachers manage other subjects perfectly fine, the will to learn Irish, especially when forced, just isn't there with school going kids.

If the biggest argument for keeping it is that it would be a "shame" if it disappeared, then it's already dead. I'd agree that there is a rhythmic quality to the language which is useful in the arts, but then, so does ancient Greek and Latin.

It's not the teachers that is the problem.Its the course that is taught by them.Irish is taught in the same way English is taught by getting you to read and analyse poetry,stories etc however although that's reasonably OK for English as everyone can speak it fluently it's completely pointless for Irish as most students cannot speak it fluently.The teaching of the language should focus on getting you to learn how to speak it fluently first and foremost and anything after that is a bonus.

darkpagandeath · 30-05-2015 01:43PM

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

It's not the teachers that is the problem.Its the course that is taught by them.Irish is taught in the same way English is taught by getting you to read and analyse poetry,stories etc however although that's reasonably OK for English as everyone can speak it fluently it's completely pointless for Irish as most students cannot speak it fluently.The teaching of the language should focus on getting you to learn how to speak it fluently first and foremost and anything after that is a bonus.

One of the major issues is that babies pick up the English cadences before they learn to speak. So they are predisposed to speaking English and that's why Irish cadences seem alien.

Un Croissant · 30-05-2015 01:49PM

I think teaching it like a foreign language is like an admission of defeat for Irish enthusiasts. Admitting it is alien to the majority people wouldn't sit well.

darkpagandeath · 30-05-2015 01:52PM

Un Croissant wrote: »

I think teaching it like a foreign language is like an admission of defeat for Irish enthusiasts. Admitting it is alien to the majority people wouldn't sit well.

Why is it on the decline in areas that used to speak it fluently ?

briany · 30-05-2015 02:24PM

You have to wonder why Irish hasn't been able to make a resurgence when Irish games have remained popular, as has Irish music. So there are big facets of Irish culture which remain, which haven't been 'beaten out of us', and have been able to do it without compulsory education. It's not as if Ireland has become, or is in danger of becoming, a cultural vassal of England. Even if you argue that it is, there's nobody putting a British/English language magazine or book in your hand, there's nobody forcing you to watch the BBC instead of TG4, there's nobody telling you to prefer Rock/Pop music over Seán Nós. We live, arguably, in the greatest ever time in terms of resources for learning Irish, with the Internet, learning resources, Gaelscoileanna etc.

So what is it that keeps English on top? What is that means I'm typing in English right now? What are the things which caused Ireland to make that language shift, and kept it in place. We've seen in Wales that if the will is there, people can retain their language, despite pressure put them them to do otherwise. To an extent, we can blame the punitive and educational measures that helped shrink the Irish language, but cannot forget about the apparent lack of will on the part of the government and people to change things when the country, ostensibly, became in charge of its own destiny.

The question that needs to be answered with Irish, I think, before it can truly make inroads back into contemporary life of people who'd otherwise be speaking English, to stop the ongoing shrinking of the Gaeltachts is - how do you make Irish relevant to people today?
How is it the language of the future, rather than the past? How is it the language of opportunity? How do you get the person who's not particularly interested in poetry and prose to investigate the language and speak it in the home? What social barriers does it break down?

30-05-2015 02:27PM

I am sorry but my issue with this is that the majority of the people forced to learn Irish in schools do not need to / want to learn it. I don't even want to know what having Irish as a compulsory secondary school language costs the tax payer/state but its disgraceful. Irish would be more magical if the people who spoke it/learnt it were people who actually want to learn it, opposed to making people despise the language that was forced upon them

Un Croissant · 30-05-2015 02:45PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Why is it on the decline in areas that used to speak it fluently ?

No idea. The internet would be a massive factor. Not to mention that anything worth watching comes in English.

LDN_Irish · 30-05-2015 02:53PM

tipparetops wrote: »

that was 1948, we had our chance than as well and did not take it.
In 1948 Israel introduced a policy of only Hebrew being used by public bodies,
so for example if you wanted get a driving licence the form was Hebrew only.
Public Servants would only speak Hebrew, everyone had to learn the language.
schools thought Hebrew as the main language.

Israels government practically forced the people to learn the language.
It was a great policy and one Ireland should have adopted.

I really can't see how only 5% of Irish drivers holding a driving license would be beneficial for the language.

Infini · 30-05-2015 03:00PM

Sas truth is that Irish is effectively redundant with no practical application in todays world. Might be better to just let this one go its been gone out of daily life for decades now.

ronivek · 30-05-2015 03:02PM

Students are taught Geography and History and Business and so on; but I doubt very many of them would be able to hold an intelligent debate or discussion on many of the topics encountered.

The reality is that the Leaving Certificate is laying a generic foundation for your adult life; it's not giving you the skills or insight to be particularly skilled at any one subject unless you're actively putting in extracurricular effort. I would say that includes languages.

I mean if all Irish children were taught in Irish from the first day of school until the last; Irish wouldn't be dying. The question then becomes how do you ensure our English is allowed to flourish too; and I would argue that would happen almost naturally because the vast majority of our entertainment is consumed in English.

As to how you bridge that gap between parents who probably don't speak Irish and kids who can speak enough Irish to begin learning in school; I don't really know precisely. Not to mention how do you ensure the teachers can actually speak Irish well enough to teach in it. It would probably be very difficult.

Ultimately I think there would need to be a significant desire to make Irish a major part of life in Ireland; and I don't see that existing in any way, shape, or form.

Personally speaking as an adult who spent 12 odd years being taught Irish and can just about say "may I go to the toilet?"; I would love to learn the language properly. I just don't really have the time.

feargale · 30-05-2015 03:57PM

tipparetops wrote: »

that was 1948, we had our chance than as well and did not take it.
In 1948 Israel introduced a policy of only Hebrew being used by public bodies,
so for example if you wanted get a driving licence the form was Hebrew only.
Public Servants would only speak Hebrew, everyone had to learn the language.
schools thought Hebrew as the main language.

Israels government practically forced the people to learn the language.
It was a great policy and one Ireland should have adopted.

You're coming dangerously close to the language policies of that weird and wonderful 1940s party Ailtirî na h-Aiséirghe, which would have criminalised the public use of English. I suspect that anyone who sought to regiment the Irish people to such a degree would be told to f--- off, probably in Irish as well as English, by the majority of them. It depends on one's priorities - the Irish language or fundamental language rights.

irishlad12345 · 30-05-2015 04:01PM

50-90% of the worlds languages will be extinct by 2100 i fear irish will be one of them

feargale · 30-05-2015 04:06PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

1.77 million said they could speak Irish. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that they're telling porkies.

Out on a limb? You would hardly need to go out on a dûidín! Most of them know more Chinese.

downwesht · 30-05-2015 04:09PM

Ban it or put a meter on it......won't fail!!!!

Geniass · 30-05-2015 04:11PM

irishlad12345 wrote: »

50-90% of the worlds languages will be extinct by 2100 i fear irish will be one of them

There are Irish kids that are fluent now that will be alive in the year 2100, so it's not possible to be extinct by then (not counting a nuclear holocaust which will likely make all languages extinct).

30-05-2015 04:23PM

It's a crap antiquated language mostly supported by posh people and raving loonies from rural Ireland. It will be forever associated in my mind with idiot, backward teachers who were most often violent to cover up their inadequacies.

If this crap dies out I will be very very happy indeed! I went to a Gaelscoil and it's just so old fashioned and ancient (or maybe that was the methods used to teach it I don't know!)

One word sums up the hatred I have for Irish: Peig. It's not a surprise that she was some bogger tart whose thrilling escapades included feeding animals on the farm, marrying an old man or giving birth.

feargale · 30-05-2015 04:25PM

Edgarfrndly wrote: »

I had a great conversation with Benny the Irish Polyglot about improving the Irish curriculum a year or two ago - and we agreed that there needs to be a huge shift towards spoken Irish, and less focus on syntax and grammar.

Grammar cannot be ignored while it exists and the only effective way to sidestep it is near total immersion. In time much of the grammar will disappear e.g. the noun case changes. It's a universal trend, often obstructed by the purists and didacts.

feargale · 30-05-2015 04:28PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's a crap antiquated language mostly supported by posh people and raving loonies from rural Ireland.

This is bigotry.

feargale · 30-05-2015 04:31PM

wendell borton wrote: »

The welsh language is going strong at the moment, couldn't we just copy them.

We could if we had as many speakers. Welsh was always in a stronger position, largely because it was used in the churches and chapels. Also the Welsh language did not engender resentment by being allied to an unenlightened educational system.

30-05-2015 04:34PM

feargale wrote: »

Bigotry.

Experience.

If this sh*t dies out it will be the ultimate revenge for us all on those flatcap-wearing, potato growing culchie retards who revered this poisonous nonsense. If the internet helps it die then I will love the internet even more.

I'll dance a jig if this thing disappears....good riddance.

feargale · 30-05-2015 04:41PM

feargale wrote: »

Also the Welsh language did not engender resentment by being allied to an unenlightened educational system.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Experience.

If this sh*t dies out it will be the ultimate revenge for us all on those flatcap-wearing, potato growing culchie retards who revered this poisonous nonsense. If the internet helps it die then I will love the internet even more.

I'll dance a jig if this thing disappears....good riddance.

Thank you. You have made my point perfectly clear, namely that some people have been considerably damaged by it,

Dirty Dingus McGee · 30-05-2015 04:43PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Experience.

If this sh*t dies out it will be the ultimate revenge for us all on those flatcap-wearing, potato growing culchie retards who revered this poisonous nonsense. If the internet helps it die then I will love the internet even more.

I'll dance a jig if this thing disappears....good riddance.

I think what you're spewing is poisonous nonsense not the irish language.

30-05-2015 04:49PM

Yeah I suppose...the main problem with me is that every proponent of the Irish language I ever encountered was some kind of evil cowardly savage so it kind of tainted the language's image for me. Anything that is supported by that kind of scum won't be looked on fondly by me.

Reiver · 30-05-2015 04:54PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Experience.

If this sh*t dies out it will be the ultimate revenge for us all on those flatcap-wearing, potato growing culchie retards who revered this poisonous nonsense. If the internet helps it die then I will love the internet even more.

I'll dance a jig if this thing disappears....good riddance.

I don't think it's Irish you're against. Just rural Ireland. Are you from Dublin by any chance?

The Irish language is failing.

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