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The Irish language is failing.

13567…94

Comments

  • #62
    Shep_Dog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 499 ✭✭Shep_Dog


    Sand wrote: »
    That is the key question: what do we want out of the Irish language? Why do we want it to survive? What is the purpose of spending so much time and money on it? .
    It is the main aim of Conradh na Gaelge to restore Irish as the common language of Ireland.

    Resistance is futile.


  • #63
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    mikeym wrote: »
    What does the minister of the gealteacht think....

    Oh wait he dont speak Irish too well.
    Nice to have a minister that represents most of us, for a change.


  • #64
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    It's not failing. People are choosing to communicate through a different language that is the way of the world. People choose the most common useful form of communication. It would be argued we should instead of Teaching Irish in Schools be teaching Forms of Chinese.


  • #65
    galljga1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,937 ✭✭✭galljga1


    wendell borton wrote: »
    The welsh language is going strong at the moment, couldn't we just copy them.

    No!
    How the hell do you pronounce Llanfair­pwllgwyngyll­gogery­chwyrn­drobwll­llan­tysilio­gogo­goch?


  • #66
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    galljga1 wrote: »
    No!
    How the hell do you pronounce Llanfair­pwllgwyngyll­gogery­chwyrn­drobwll­llan­tysilio­gogo­goch?

    Think of LL like Th.


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  • #67
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    It's not failing. People are choosing to communicate through a different language that is the way of the world. People choose the most common useful form of communication. It would be argued we should instead of Teaching Irish in Schools be teaching Forms of Chinese.

    People also choose to communicate in a language the feel allows them to express themselves.

    This idea falls into the same trap as the Irish does: teaching a school subject because it gets points on exams and not because it helps students learn how to express themselves.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #68
    stefanovich
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    I wish I had paid more attention to Irish as a kid. Moving here as a kid from England I always resented having to learn it and found it a bit of a struggle to catch up. The stuff that stuck with me was from primary school. In secondary it was very poorly taught I thought. Now I wish I could speak it properly.


  • #69
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    People also choose to communicate in a language the feel allows them to express themselves.

    This idea falls into the same trap as the Irish does: teaching a school subject because it gets points on exams and not because it helps students learn how to express themselves.

    The problem is people think a language is intrinsically linked to culture. Where as culture develops over time adds removes different items it's constantly evolving. At one time Irish culture was expressed though the Irish language. Now it's expressed differently, That does not say that any is better or worse it's what people have chosen as a collective.


  • #70
    ch750536
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,736 ✭✭✭ch750536


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Think of LL like Th.

    Th in english dialect or Tr (Irish dialect)
    :D


  • #71
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 22,384 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Gatling wrote: »
    If anything it's growing. It's dipping at gealtrach areas possibly due to emigration amongst the younger generations.
    My kids are fluent and learning at 6 and 3 respectively .

    Are you fluent?

    I'd love to be, but I'm not. So I certainly wouldn't foist it on my daughter. I would hope she would like to learn it when she is old enough to make a decision.


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  • #72
    Dirty Dingus McGee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,631 ✭✭✭Dirty Dingus McGee


    The only way you'll revive it is to start with the youth.It's too late for anyone who's past school age.If all primary schools became gaelscoileanna then a whole generation would be fluent by the time they were 12 would be using the language on a day to day basis in conversation with their friends and it would be spoken outside of school as well and eventually grow as a language.

    Making all primary schools gaelscoileanna wouldn't be that difficult and it would revive the language.

    Also the teaching of it needs to be based on speaking the language.The way Irish is taught in schools is appalling and is one of the main reason the language is not prospering.


  • #73
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 22,384 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »
    The only way you'll revive it is to start with the youth.It's late for anyone who's past school age.If all primary schools became gaelscoileanna then a whole generation would be fluent by the time they were 12 would be using the language on a day to day basis in conversation with their friends and it would be spoken outside of school as well and eventually grow as a language.

    Making all primary schools gaelscoileanna wouldn't be that difficult and it would revive the language.

    Also the teaching of it needs to be based on speaking the language.The way Irish is taught in schools is appalling and is one of the main reason the language is not prospering.

    I would not be in favour of that whole gaelscoileanna for middle class families who use their kids to show how much they care about Irish stuff. Surely if it is to have any hope it has to start by fostering a desire amongst adults to learn it, rather than demanding that their kids learn it. If it's not good enough for adults, why should they insist that their kids learn it? We, rightly, give out about the "inculcate them when they're too young to know different" attitude when it comes to religion.


  • #74
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    On a side note, Where does all the money go if in fact people are speaking Irish less and less even in the Areas it was spoken primarily ?


  • #75
    Donne
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 190 ✭✭Donne


    The strange thing is, we got my best level of Gaeilge‎ in 6h class primary!

    When we went to secondary school we started almost from the basics again at a much level that 6th year.

    Someone in the Edu. Department, shoud get their **** together.


  • #76
    Dirty Dingus McGee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,631 ✭✭✭Dirty Dingus McGee


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I would not be in favour of that whole gaelscoileanna for middle class families who use their kids to show how much they care about Irish stuff. Surely if it is to have any hope it has to start by fostering a desire amongst adults to learn it, rather than demanding that their kids learn it. If it's not good enough for adults, why should they insist that their kids learn it? We, rightly, give out about the "inculcate them when they're too young to know different" attitude when it comes to religion.

    It's too late for adults.Most people don't have enough time for it and learning a language is not easy so realistically you are not going to get too many adults wanting to learn it. So the only way is through children in my opinion.

    I'd love to be able to speak Irish but don't want to put in any effort and learning your native language really shouldn't be an effort it should be something that is natural.You have all primary schools as Irish speaking schools and it becomes natural for children to be speaking it and learning the language.


  • #77
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    The problem is people think a language is intrinsically linked to culture. Where as culture develops over time adds removes different items it's constantly evolving. At one time Irish culture was expressed though the Irish language. Now it's expressed differently, That does not say that any is better or worse it's what people have chosen as a collective.

    Cultural is one of the worst reasons for doing anything en masse. It just doesn't allow for individual expression, which is the one thing lacking in Western education.

    Let the individual decide if they want to express themsleves that way and make the resources available to them if they do.
    Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »
    The only way you'll revive it is to start with the youth.It's too late for anyone who's past school age.If all primary schools became gaelscoileanna then a whole generation would be fluent by the time they were 12 would be using the language on a day to day basis in conversation with their friends and it would be spoken outside of school as well and eventually grow as a language.

    Making all primary schools gaelscoileanna wouldn't be that difficult and it would revive the language.

    Also the teaching of it needs to be based on speaking the language.The way Irish is taught in schools is appalling and is one of the main reason the language is not prospering.

    Again, this goes totally against the idea of expression. Ask yourself: who wants the langauge revived; and who will be putting the work in to revive it? And why are they putting the work in?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #78
    Dirty Dingus McGee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,631 ✭✭✭Dirty Dingus McGee


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    Cultural is one of the worst reasons for doing anything en masse. It just doesn't allow for individual expression, which is the one thing lacking in Western education.

    Let the individual decide if they want to express themsleves that way and make the resources available to them if they do.



    Again, this goes totally against the idea of expression. Unless you can prove every primary school student in the country really wants to learn Irish.

    In fairness primary school children don't know what they want.I doubt they want to learn Maths as well but they do because they're told to do it.


  • #79
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »
    In fairness primary school children don't know what they want.I doubt they want to learn Maths as well but they do because they're told to do it.

    And therein lies the second worst reason for doing something - "because you're told to".

    Kids learn Maths because it's an essential skill in adult life. Irish isn't.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #80
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »
    In fairness primary school children don't know what they want.I doubt they want to learn Maths as well but they do because they're told to do it.

    Maths is different it's a core part of modern life linked in to everything you need a basic understanding of it.


  • #81
    Dirty Dingus McGee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,631 ✭✭✭Dirty Dingus McGee


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    And therein lies the second worst reason for doing something - "because you're told to".

    Kids learn Maths because it's an essential skill in adult life. Irish isn't.

    Fair enough.

    Then the language is going to die.If the language is to be revived then it needs to start with younger people and start teaching the language properly and putting more emphasis on it so it become s more important in life.

    Almost everything you learn is school is pointless anyway and has no application in the real world but we still do it because we are told to do it.


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  • #82
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »
    Fair enough.

    Then the language is going to die.If the language is to be revived then it needs to start with younger people and start teaching the language properly and putting more emphasis on it so it become s more important in life.

    Almost everything you learn is school is pointless anyway and has no application in the real world but we still do it because we are told to do it.

    Why is it falling out of use in Area's that spoke it fluently ?


  • #83
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 22,384 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »
    I'd love to be able to speak Irish but don't want to put in any effort...

    I understand this.

    I just don't get the "but I'll make my children put in the effort" part. It all seems a bit twee to me, gaelscoileanna became trendier than piano lessons in the 90s. It's like the father who was no good at sports screaming at his kid from the sidelines, making him do all the graft. If it's good enough for me, it's good enough for my kid...but if I don't I won't insist she will.


  • #84
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »
    Fair enough.

    Then the language is going to die.If the language is to be revived then it needs to start with younger people and start teaching the language properly and putting more emphasis on it so it become s more important in life.

    If it dies, it dies. But it will die because the ineptitude and stubbornness of those charged with reviving it. The rest of the your post is perfectly true, but my point is that you don't need to go down the road of converting every primary schol into a gaelscoil to do it.

    As I said ages ago - teach it as a language that allows you to express yourself and not as a school subject to get points on an exam and the langauge will revive itself. Force people to learn it and you get what you've got. And for some reason beyond my comprehension, people seem happy with this.
    Almost everything you learn is school is pointless anyway and has no application in the real world but we still do it because we are told to do it.

    You've summed up the two biggest problems with Western education systems perfectly in one sentence.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #85
    Dirty Dingus McGee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,631 ✭✭✭Dirty Dingus McGee


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I understand this.

    I just don't get the "but I'll make my children put in the effort" part. It all seems a bit twee to me, gaelscoileanna became trendier than piano lessons in the 90s. It's like the father who was no good at sports screaming at his kid from the sidelines, making him do all the graft. If it's good enough for me, it's good enough for my kid...but if I don't I won't insist she will.


    It won't have any real negative affect on me or most people in this country if the language is never spoken again but it would be sad for it to die out and it reflect badly on the country that we have let it get to this stage.It is an appalling badly taught language and after 13 years of classes I've barely any Irish when really after all that time I should be fluent in it.

    If there is to be a revival of the language and I suspect a lot of people who may not want to put the effort in don't want to see it die either than you have to start with young people who won't see learning it as a chore.That is really the only realistic way to improve things.


  • #86
    anncoates
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,925 ✭✭✭✭anncoates


    Would be better to see the language taught differently. Not rote learning, grammar and anachronistic literature. Teach it in a contemporary sense with emphasis on conversational fluency.

    I wasn't born here so was technically exempt in school but still opted to do it (badly).

    It's only when you get older and interested in history or just visit places like the Blaskets that you get more of an appreciation for the unique historical aspects of our language.

    I think we need to tap into that nationalistic, cultural thing somehow, that it's a unique historical part of our national identity, to get people interested again.

    I don't think the national language necessarily needs to be jettisoned just because it doesn't look good on a Google or IBM CV.


  • #87
    pablomakaveli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    I hated Irish in school but since i left i've come to regret not being able to speak it fluently and learning it is something i hope to achieve at some point.

    You can always make the argument that minority languages like Irish, Welsh, Basque etc are pointless because English, French etc are more widespread but thats sort of missing the point. You let the language die and it's gone. Is it right for us to make that decision for future generations.

    The approach to the language in Ireland is completely wrong. The way it's thought for a start is ridiculous. How can you learn a language by reading poetry and stories and answering questions or learning off an essay about a "timpiste mór". I learned more French in secondary school than Irish because French was taught correctly.

    Also laws like having to translate governement documents into Irish is a waste of resources. Take half that money and invest it in more useful and productive programs to promote the language like say conversational Irish classes for adults. The rest can go back into the health service or education where more money is needed anyway.


  • #88
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    pablomakaveli wrote: »
    I hated Irish in school but since i left i've come to regret not being able to speak it fluently and learning it is something i hope to achieve at some point.

    You can always make the argument that minority languages like Irish, Welsh, Basque etc are pointless because English, French etc are more widespread but thats sort of missing the point. You let the language die and it's gone. Is it right for us to make that decision for future generations.

    The approach to the language in Ireland is completely wrong. The way it's thought for a start is ridiculous. How can you learn a language by reading poetry and stories and answering questions or learning off an essay about a "timpiste mór". I learned more French in secondary school than Irish because French was taught correctly.

    Also laws like having to translate governement documents into Irish is a waste of resources. Take half that money and invest it in more useful and productive programs to promote the language like say conversational Irish classes for adults. The rest can go back into the health service or education where more money is needed anyway.

    Languages die off it's life should We resurrect Cornish for example ? People no longer speak Old English or many many languages. Babylonian anyone ?


  • #89
    looksee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,945 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    I am a non-Irish-speaking Brit - though I can more or less understand quite a lot of things like phrases and place names etc. My kids grew up learning Irish by the 'here is an essay in Irish, learn it by heart' method, which was utterly pointless.

    Some people have a gift for languages - I don't - let them opt to learn Irish in Secondary school, because they want to. All younger children learning Irish in the way they do at the moment, as part of daily conversation in primary school, would give them an idea of whether they want to continue on with it.

    It would be better to teach children good, grammatical, accurate English for communication purposes, and let those who want to, develop their Irish. The end result would hopefully be a core of people who are interested in, and enthusiastic about Irish, rather than a whole lot of people who have no time for it at all.


  • #90
    Un Croissant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,052 ✭✭✭Un Croissant


    I'm glad we have avoided the "it's our first language" *fingers in ears* routine.

    I'm sure if people put a bit of pressure on the government, things might change. But why change it if no one cares? It's only when it becomes a headache that they'll look at it.


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  • #91
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,094 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    Kids learn Maths because it's an essential skill in adult life. Irish isn't

    This statement is profoundly untrue. Sums are essential, and kids learn them in primary school. In secondary school, quadratic equations, calculus, trigonometry and so, so much else are what the state spends its money "teaching" kids. The vast, vast majority of adults do very well in life without ever using any of that stuff from the day they leave school.


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