Public sector pay increase

mad m · 25-05-2015 10:08PM

Gebgbegb wrote: »

It sounds like they are understaffed to me...

Anyhow... did my road tax online last week, took 2 minutes, disc in post this morning. Perfect system... and you want to privatise it!!

Yeah it's a great system, but look where the road tax money ended up last time, Irish water got it.

Roger Hassenforder · 25-05-2015 11:36PM

JillyQ wrote: »

Its a cost that they can get rid of by either privatising it or sub contracting it out. I would love to see the use of the ANPR's rolled more. As that would be beneficial to private sector.

so a nationally centralised mechanism of raising revenue for the state is privatised, thereby inserting a third party into the process whose sole motive is profit, so after taking their costs out of the turnover, they return a portion to the state less their profits. This third party pays a dividend to their shareholders, not necessarily Irish, and a portion of the money probably leaves the state...

Whereas with the current system, Irish public servants, employed in some town like Carlow (something tells me its in Carlow?) or Shannon, buy goods and services in the local economy, services providing local employment, paying rates, PAYE etc., and ensuring a significant amount of the money ends up back with the government as VAT.

this isnt a PPP, which are of arguable benefit to the state, this service is already being provided efficiently.

What we could do is a trial run though, with something simple like driving licences...see how that goes?

Roger Hassenforder · 25-05-2015 11:40PM

mad m wrote: »

Yeah it's a great system, but look where the road tax money ended up last time, Irish water got it.

money into gubbernment from various sources
Money out of gubbernment to various sources.

money that would have ended up being paid to local authorities as the Local Government Fund, and grants and subsidies etc., was paid to IW to pay the local authorities to provide the services on their behalf...
A model of efficiency!

Black Menorca · 26-05-2015 12:19AM

Its payback time for public servants.

JillyQ · 26-05-2015 12:28AM

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

so a nationally centralised mechanism of raising revenue for the state is privatised, thereby inserting a third party into the process whose sole motive is profit, so after taking their costs out of the turnover, they return a portion to the state less their profits. This third party pays a dividend to their shareholders, not necessarily Irish, and a portion of the money probably leaves the state...

Whereas with the current system, Irish public servants, employed in some town like Carlow (something tells me its in Carlow?) or Shannon, buy goods and services in the local economy, services providing local employment, paying rates, PAYE etc., and ensuring a significant amount of the money ends up back with the government as VAT.

this isnt a PPP, which are of arguable benefit to the state, this service is already being provided efficiently.

What we could do is a trial run though, with something simple like driving licences...see how that goes?

The state could of course be made a shareholder init then getting a dividend from it to put back in public services such as hosiptals, education etc. My experience of the Drivers Licencing since it has been moved away from the councils is that it is quiet efficient. Look at it in the vast majority of cases you can get an appointment within the next seven days. All be it the issuing again of the licences takes some time. Issuing of licences I would assume has to be checked for convictions etc.

Roger Hassenforder · 26-05-2015 12:58AM

JillyQ wrote: »

The state could of course be made a shareholder init then getting a dividend from it to put back in public services such as hosiptals, education etc. My experience of the Drivers Licencing since it has been moved away from the councils is that it is quiet efficient. Look at it in the vast majority of cases you can get an appointment within the next seven days. All be it the issuing again of the licences takes some time. Issuing of licences I would assume has to be checked for convictions etc.

you're hilarious!
you find the NDLS efficient, but motortax inefficient!

and you still are quiet happy to have a third party reducing revenue for the state, by extracting profits for themselves.

JillyQ · 26-05-2015 01:05AM

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

you're hilarious!
you find the NDLS efficient, but motortax inefficient!

and you still are quiet happy to have a third party reducing revenue for the state, by extracting profits for themselves.

your cutting the costs for the state by getting rid of the salary bill paid to them, you also include the state in profit of it by making it a share holder and paying it a dividend. Oh and if the employees are prepared to work in the private sector they still get their salary & the state still gets the taxes. It is not a necessary state service. NDLS is open on saturdays for people who want to go in motor tax isnt.

Roger Hassenforder · 26-05-2015 02:00AM

JillyQ wrote: »

your cutting the costs for the state by getting rid of the salary bill paid to them, you also include the state in profit of it by making it a share holder and paying it a dividend. Oh and if the employees are prepared to work in the private sector they still get their salary & the state still gets the taxes. It is not a necessary state service. NDLS is open on saturdays for people who want to go in motor tax isnt.

motor tax is open 24/7!

significant state revenue collection should remain within the control of the state.
you still have your third party taking a cut though!
is it more "getting rid of the workers" than getting rid of the salary bill?

JillyQ · 26-05-2015 02:14AM

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

motor tax is open 24/7!

significant state revenue collection should remain within the control of the state.
you still have your third party taking a cut though!
is it more "getting rid of the workers" than getting rid of the salary bill?

The state is still getting its cut motor tax is paid to them along with the added dividend. With out the cost of the salary bill, properties etc Of course a private operator takes it cut as well. Along with the online system you have longer opening hours and more flexible opening hours. Goverment gets the money without the cost, as well as the private operator generating an income, which increases the tax take for the goverment. Only difference is it must be run at profit in order to increase the revenue.

Roger Hassenforder · 26-05-2015 08:02AM

JillyQ wrote: »

The state is still getting its cut motor tax is paid to them along with the added dividend. With out the cost of the salary bill, properties etc Of course a private operator takes it cut as well. Along with the online system you have longer opening hours and more flexible opening hours. Goverment gets the money without the cost, as well as the private operator generating an income, which increases the tax take for the goverment. Only difference is it must be run at profit in order to increase the revenue.

can we apply this logic to libraries, public transport, playgrounds, health service, court service, planning system etc?
or just to those services that are profitable and revenue generating, reducing the exposure for the private operator?

Jawgap · 26-05-2015 08:50AM

JillyQ wrote: »

Its a cost that they can get rid of by either privatising it or sub contracting it out. I would love to see the use of the ANPR's rolled more. As that would be beneficial to private sector.

How?

other than supplying the tech and joining up the various databases, how could the application of ANPR technology benefit the private sector?

If anything it would add costs to their sector because it would increase efficiency of applying, administering and collecting fines - an ANPR equipped car just needs to roll around a city or large town for about 8 hours and the number of fines imposed would likely cover the capital cost of acquiring the set in the car.

Jawgap · 26-05-2015 08:54AM

JillyQ wrote: »

The state could of course be made a shareholder init then getting a dividend from it to put back in public services such as hosiptals, education etc. My experience of the Drivers Licencing since it has been moved away from the councils is that it is quiet efficient. Look at it in the vast majority of cases you can get an appointment within the next seven days. All be it the issuing again of the licences takes some time. Issuing of licences I would assume has to be checked for convictions etc.

Well currently the state is a shareholder in it - the only shareholder

Drivers' Licensing? How do you know it's more efficient - no doubt response and completion times are hugely improved, but at what cost? How much did the system cost before and how much does it cost now?

Jawgap · 26-05-2015 08:55AM

JillyQ wrote: »

your cutting the costs for the state by getting rid of the salary bill paid to them, you also include the state in profit of it by making it a share holder and paying it a dividend. Oh and if the employees are prepared to work in the private sector they still get their salary & the state still gets the taxes. It is not a necessary state service. NDLS is open on saturdays for people who want to go in motor tax isnt.

You may get rid of the salary bill, but how much do NDLS get paid for providing the service? Is it more or less than the salaries saved?

Geuze · 26-05-2015 10:26AM

mad m wrote: »

Yeah it's a great system, but look where the road tax money ended up last time, Irish water got it.

Motor tax always was paid to local councils, partly to pay for water.

There has been no change, now just paid to IW instead, but still to pay for water.

Celticfire · 26-05-2015 05:33PM

JillyQ wrote: »

The state could of course be made a shareholder init then getting a dividend from it to put back in public services such as hosiptals, education etc. My experience of the Drivers Licencing since it has been moved away from the councils is that it is quiet efficient. Look at it in the vast majority of cases you can get an appointment within the next seven days. All be it the issuing again of the licences takes some time. Issuing of licences I would assume has to be checked for convictions etc.

And don't forget that the cost of the licence also decreased once it was privatised. :rolleyes:

JillyQ · 26-05-2015 06:15PM

Celticfire wrote: »

And don't forget that the cost of the licence also decreased once it was privatised. :rolleyes:

Forgot about that

Roger Hassenforder · 26-05-2015 07:20PM

Celticfire wrote: »

And don't forget that the cost of the licence also decreased once it was privatised. :rolleyes:

Outsourced.
RSA now responsible.
I think your sarcasm was wasted on Jilly?

"...Mr Varadkar said this new price for a full licence compared favourably to the €85 cost for a full licence in Spain, €62 in Britain and more than €100 in Australia.... The new fees represent the first licence fee increase since 2001

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/plastic-card-driving-licences-in-2013-216175.html

daithi7 · 28-05-2015 04:08PM

The economist has an interesting piece on world indebtedness, which it thinks is far too high & should be reduced.... HELLO! Ireland is still the most indebted country on the planet, as can be seen on their info graphic.... (just click on the highest curve) yikes!!

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2015/05/daily-chart-4

Yet,still some people believe we should take on even more debt every year, to pay for more current expenditure for yet higher public sector salaries, pensions &benefits that are already well ahead of their private sector equivalents!? Just why exactly!? Other than screwing the country & economy & current &future generations even more!?!

Wake up Ireland, a sector is trying to cheat you.

granturismo · 28-05-2015 04:30PM

daithi7 wrote: »

The economist has an interesting piece on world indebtedness, which it thinks is far too high & should be reduced.... HELLO! Ireland is still the most indebted country on the planet, as can be seen on their info graphic.... (just click on the highest curve) yikes!!

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2015/05/daily-chart-4

Yet,still some people believe we should take on even more debt every year, to pay for more current expenditure for yet higher public sector salaries, pensions &benefits that are already well ahead of their private sector equivalents!...

Wake up Ireland, a sector is trying to cheat you.

Read the text underneath;

But plenty of countries have gone out on a limb. Some are financial centres, such as Singapore and Ireland. Their debts are inflated because they host the subsidiaries of many global banks and companies.

darkpagandeath · 28-05-2015 04:36PM

granturismo wrote: »

Read the text underneath;

But plenty of countries have gone out on a limb. Some are financial centres, such as Singapore and Ireland. Their debts are inflated because they host the subsidiaries of many global banks and companies.

How many Foreign banks do we have here again ? We may have Brass plates.

daithi7 · 28-05-2015 05:38PM

Looking at just household debt :

http://m.independent.ie/business/irish/dan-obrien-household-debt-is-falling-but-the-pain-isnt-over-29970790.html

Irish households owe almost twice their annual gross disposable income.

Among peer countries, only the Danes and the Dutch owe more (but they have stronger asset sides to their balance sheets).

In Britain, where property prices never seem to stop rising, the ratio is around 130 per cent of disposable income. In Spain, where property prices never seem to stop falling, the figure is 125 per cent.

Irish households have managed to reduce their debts as a percentage of GDP from 206 per cent in autumn of 2008 to just under the 200 per cent threshold five years later.

The reason the decline has been so small is because disposable incomes have fallen so sharply (only Greece has experienced a bigger decline over the past half-decade).

Progress should speed up in the years to come if – as planned – disposable income is not cut much further by more tax increases and if the more competitive sectors in the economy experience stronger wage growth.

But it will be well into the next decade at the earliest before household debt comes down to safer and more sustainable levels of around 100 per cent of disposable income.

The grind goes on.

Irish Independent

daithi7 · 28-05-2015 05:45PM

Looking at Government Debt to GDP we're also in the poor house, dependent on money lenders...

http://m.independent.ie/business/irish/irelands-debt-levels-are-fourth-in-europe-29940384.html

'IRELAND had the fourth highest government debt in Europe at the end of September last year, according to the latest data released by Eurostat.

Government debt in the Eurozone fell for the first time since the end of 2007. At the end of the third quarter, the debt-to-GDP average for the euro area was 92.7pc.

This is compared to 93.4pc in the previous quarter.

Ireland’s debt level was 124.8pc at the end of September. Debt-riddled Greece had the highest at 171.8pc, followed by Italy at 132.9pc, and Portugal at 128.7pc.'

Kermit.de.frog · 28-05-2015 06:13PM

seeds of the next crisis being planted. nothing learned.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/public-servants-set-to-gain-1-000-next-year-in-pay-deal-1.2229670

Black Menorca · 28-05-2015 06:27PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

seeds of the next crisis being planted. nothing learned.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/public-servants-set-to-gain-1-000-next-year-in-pay-deal-1.2229670

Don't try and pin the economic collapse on public service workers. It just won't wash.

Pay restoration is the only show in tow after years of sacrifice for the good of the country.

darkpagandeath · 28-05-2015 06:39PM

Black Menorca wrote: »

Don't try and pin the economic collapse on public service workers. It just won't wash.

Pay restoration is the only show in tow after years of sacrifice for the good of the country.

Sacrifice ? The wages where merely toned down from stupid amounts of pay rises during the boom. They are still above the level of inflation for a good few years. No need to jack them back up the the crazy high levels from the boom.

Black Menorca · 28-05-2015 06:42PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Sacrifice ? The wages where merely toned down from stupid amounts of pay rises during the boom. They are still above the level of inflation for a good few years. No need to jack them back up the the crazy high levels from the boom.

The commitment has been made to restore pay and we'll be holding the government to that commitment, starting with the lower paid.

darkpagandeath · 28-05-2015 06:44PM

Black Menorca wrote: »

The commitment has been made to restore pay and we'll be holding the government to that commitment, starting with the lower paid.

No, I'm pretty sure it says if economics allow. And it won't be the low paid it will be everyone. Can't believe that was said with a straight face “Lower paid”....

cocoman · 28-05-2015 07:00PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Sacrifice ? The wages where merely toned down from stupid amounts of pay rises during the boom. They are still above the level of inflation for a good few years. No need to jack them back up the the crazy high levels from the boom.

I wouldn't exactly say a Clerical Officer starting on €21k (rising to €32k after 11 years) is a crazy high level.

Black Menorca · 28-05-2015 07:04PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

No, I'm pretty sure it says if economics allow. And it won't be the low paid it will be everyone. Can't believe that was said with a straight face “Lower paid”....

Lower paid will be prioritised and the commitment has been confirmed by Minister Howlin. This is happening and PS workers will make no apology for it either.

To Elland Back · 28-05-2015 07:47PM

Black Menorca wrote: »

Don't try and pin the economic collapse on public service workers. It just won't wash.

Pay restoration is the only show in tow after years of sacrifice for the good of the country.

Ah bless, the public service workers, with their preserved employment and benefits saved the country all on their own

Public sector pay increase

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