Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

Asabiyyah · 19-05-2015 08:48PM

Has Orch OR theory come up in this thread already? I haven't found it. It relates to consciousness afterlife and so on.

Michael OBrien · 20-05-2015 12:53AM

BMMachine wrote: »

oh dear.

when the yes vote passes that will prove to be another step in destroying the foundations of antiquated traditions such as Christianity.

as I have said, it is the tide. You can't fight the forces of nature and our nature is to learn, explore and understand. Theres no christian, muslim, hindu god(s), there never were and as much as you like believing there are it is simply that, something you like

Marriage has always been civil, well before christianity. Even when it did exist, for centuries the church kept mostly out of marriage. It was only much later that the church began to require people to attend church for the ceremonies (the motive for that is obvious).
This ref will have NO effect on religious marriage unless the church decides it wants to. Divorce was a far bigger issue in the bible and now it is in, well the church just moved on with its marriages regardless. I very very much doubt that anything will change, other than perhaps gays being not degraded as much, which will only benefit the church as it will, in 20 years, claim it was behind it all along, pointing to those brave priests and nuns that support a yes vote.

pueblo · 20-05-2015 01:22PM

Asabiyyah wrote: »

Has Orch OR theory come up in this thread already? I haven't found it. It relates to consciousness afterlife and so on.

That's some seriously heavy stuff comprising elements of molecular biology, neuroscience, quantum physics, pharmacology, philosophy, quantum information theory, and aspects of quantum gravity...

Beyond my meager brain I'm afraid..

Asabiyyah · 20-05-2015 08:33PM

pueblo wrote: »

That's some seriously heavy stuff comprising elements of molecular biology, neuroscience, quantum physics, pharmacology, philosophy, quantum information theory, and aspects of quantum gravity...

Beyond my meager brain I'm afraid..

I'll post a You Tube link when I reach 30 (posts)

hinault · 20-05-2015 11:16PM

indioblack wrote: »

How do believers envisage the Christian god?
How would they describe their experience of interaction with god?
Would they, perhaps, experience an emotion, a feeling, a desire?
Perhaps a feeling of well being, serenity.
Of being at peace, secure.

$64 million question.

In Catholicism we're taught that Heaven and God will meet the very depths of the longings contained in our souls.

What does this mean?
It appears to mean that every single spiritual desire that we have will be met and then some, if we reach Heaven where we will spend an eternity with God.

If I am honest, I think it is impossible for us, or for me at least, to try to envision what "there very depth of longings contained in our souls" are.
What are these longings?
For peace of mind? Find contentment of some kind?

Concepts like eternity - life without end - are impossible for the human mind to understand fully. Sure we know what the word eternity means but we cannot know what eternity is, in terms of tangible qualities.
The same for God. We can use words to describe what God is, but can our limited human minds and hearts know what God is?

Michael OBrien · 21-05-2015 12:11AM

hinault wrote: »

The same for God. We can use words to describe what God is, but can our limited human minds and hearts know what God is?

Thousands of years of priests and apologetics seem to think they know the mind of their god (which ever one they believe in. They even go so far as calling god a kind of mind, and it always works out that the god they understand so well, happens to agree with their point of view, no matter what that is.

hinault · 21-05-2015 12:34AM

Michael OBrien wrote: »

Thousands of years of priests and apologetics seem to think they know the mind of their god (which ever one they believe in. They even go so far as calling god a kind of mind, and it always works out that the god they understand so well, happens to agree with their point of view, no matter what that is.

Incorrect.

What we do have some insight in to is the teaching of Jesus Christ true God and true man. And this insight is the basis, and our only basis, for knowing God.

Jesus teaches that if we know Him (Jesus), we know the Father (God).

What does this mean? It means that our limited knowledge of Jesus is confined to his 33 years on this planet and his teaching therein in the gospel.
It also means that our limited human capacity to understand God doesn't equip us to know God fully.

Michael OBrien · 21-05-2015 12:40AM

hinault wrote: »

Incorrect.

What we do have some insight in to is the teaching of Jesus Christ true God and true man. And this insight is the basis, and our only basis, for knowing God.

Jesus teaches that if we know Him (Jesus), we know the Father (God).

What does this mean? It means that our limited knowledge of Jesus is confined to his 33 years on this planet and his teaching therein in the gospel.
It also means that our limited human capacity to understand God doesn't equip us to know God fully.

What you actually have is authors telling you what they say jesus said, over a period of decades, modified over centuries.
His ministry lasted at most 3 years, not 33. No one knows anything really about 90% of his alleged life on earth, barring a few choice stories given as back story. Unless you want to believe the infant gospel where jesus threw hsi childhood friend off a roof and killed him, then raised him again, or made clay doves come alive.
Also jesus was talking about the word of god, not god. Basically the message, not the messenger. But hey, no sweat, believe whatever you want. Peace.

hinault · 21-05-2015 12:57AM

Michael OBrien wrote: »

What you actually have is authors telling you what they say Jesus said, over a period of decades, modified over centuries.

You're entirely free to accept or reject the veracity of the Gospels.

The God who created you grants you this choice.

Michael OBrien wrote: »

But hey, no sweat, believe whatever you want. Peace.

You're wasting my time now with your vacuous replies and dissembling.

I won't be replying to you further on this thread.

obplayer · 21-05-2015 01:13AM

hinault wrote: »

You're entirely free to accept or reject the veracity of the Gospels.

The God who created you grants you this choice.

You're wasting my time now with your vacuous replies and dissembling.

I won't be replying to you further on this thread.

silverharp · 21-05-2015 06:29AM

hinault wrote: »

You're entirely free to accept or reject the veracity of the Gospels.

The God who created you grants you this choice.

You're wasting my time now with your vacuous replies and dissembling.

I won't be replying to you further on this thread.

did you ever get back to me on my Kangaroos? or have you decided that defending a global flood in the last 10,000 years is not possible? have you changed your mind?

MaxWig · 21-05-2015 08:02AM

hinault wrote: »

Concepts like eternity - life without end - are impossible for the human mind to understand fully. Sure we know what the word eternity means but we cannot know what eternity is, in terms of tangible qualities.

Maybe not, but we know what it isn't. We know we are finite - fragile - on the way out - I think that's the point!

The same for God. We can use words to describe what God is, but can our limited human minds and hearts know what God is?

None of the above!

orubiru · 21-05-2015 10:42AM

hinault wrote: »

$64 million question.

In Catholicism we're taught that Heaven and God will meet the very depths of the longings contained in our souls.

What does this mean?
It appears to mean that every single spiritual desire that we have will be met and then some, if we reach Heaven where we will spend an eternity with God.

If I am honest, I think it is impossible for us, or for me at least, to try to envision what "there very depth of longings contained in our souls" are.
What are these longings?
For peace of mind? Find contentment of some kind?

Concepts like eternity - life without end - are impossible for the human mind to understand fully. Sure we know what the word eternity means but we cannot know what eternity is, in terms of tangible qualities.
The same for God. We can use words to describe what God is, but can our limited human minds and hearts know what God is?

Would this mean that we would have to become something non-human before we could experience eternity and/or God?

If we were to experience eternity or to have our longings or our spiritual needs met then how much of our identity would have to be erased?

So, I really love my parents but I do not know everything about them. What if they have displeased God and do not have access to Heaven? Since they cannot enter Heaven then the only way to meet my spiritual desires would be to erase the part of my identity that needs to know my parents also made it to Heaven?

How could I be happy or content in Heaven when I'd just remember all the awful things that happen on Earth? My memories would surely have to be erased somehow?

Without my identity and my memories how could anyone really say that it is truly me who spends eternity with God?

After all, am I not my identity, a construct of my own memories and experiences?

If, in order to understand eternity, we would have to become non-human then how could anyone really say that Heaven or God exists?

In that process of transformation or ascension or enlightenment we would be required to abandon our human ideas of "Heaven" and "God". These concepts would no longer be necessary.

tommy2bad · 21-05-2015 03:05PM

orubiru wrote: »

Would this mean that we would have to become something non-human before we could experience eternity and/or God?

If we were to experience eternity or to have our longings or our spiritual needs met then how much of our identity would have to be erased?

So, I really love my parents but I do not know everything about them. What if they have displeased God and do not have access to Heaven? Since they cannot enter Heaven then the only way to meet my spiritual desires would be to erase the part of my identity that needs to know my parents also made it to Heaven?

How could I be happy or content in Heaven when I'd just remember all the awful things that happen on Earth? My memories would surely have to be erased somehow?

Without my identity and my memories how could anyone really say that it is truly me who spends eternity with God?

After all, am I not my identity, a construct of my own memories and experiences?

If, in order to understand eternity, we would have to become non-human then how could anyone really say that Heaven or God exists?

In that process of transformation or ascension or enlightenment we would be required to abandon our human ideas of "Heaven" and "God". These concepts would no longer be necessary.

I think this is the kind of thing the idea of a fallen world deals with. If we think of the existence we have now as "fallen" then it possible for it to be restored, all things made new again. If that's true then even the most broken can be restored, your parents get to be in heaven once restored, no matter if your dad was PolPot and mammy was Eva Braun.
Yes if your idea of your deepest desires is watching them burn in hellll for eternity then theirs going to be some conflict of interest but we are all broken so our desires are tainted untill this restoration.

In other words hope for the best and don't over think things. It gets hand waive fast!

steamengine · 21-05-2015 09:08PM

Asabiyyah wrote: »

Has Orch OR theory come up in this thread already? I haven't found it. It relates to consciousness afterlife and so on.

Personally, I find it easier to read somebody like Colm Keane - Heading for the Light. There's a lot of evidence around us, if we're either receptive enough or fortunate enough to encounter it. Proof is a different thing altogether and I don't think the Bible was ever designed to be on a par with say Euclid, with the customary QED at the end of every chapter/theorem.

Neither does Christianity follow a logical pattern, why should it be limited to the same parameters as say Newtonian physics. It's a faith based religion, and possibly so because a lot of what is up there is beyond our understanding.

Another question is where does our consciousness come from, we're only sophisticated robots, but yet we are aware we exist ? How come we have limited access to the subconscious, yet through it we can experience such phenomena as telepathy, significant dreams etc.,? Psychologists reckon our subconscious minds are linked with other subconscious minds which would explain telepathy for instance. Is a part of our mind independent of time and space, in other words our 'soul'?

I can't answer those who want proof of a Christian God, all I know is there are things happening outside the scope of current science. I lived in a a haunted house with a type of poltergeist for a number of years, and witnessed things I just couldn't understand. All of them questioned my understanding of what is happening, and changed it to a case of 'Well if this lot is happening, perhaps there is another plane of existence and God does exist'. Apart from that, being somewhat religious seems just right to me, probably more so now.

Each to his own, but I reckon it's no harm to keep an open mind.

indioblack · 22-05-2015 04:14PM

orubiru wrote: »

Would this mean that we would have to become something non-human before we could experience eternity and/or God?

If we were to experience eternity or to have our longings or our spiritual needs met then how much of our identity would have to be erased?

So, I really love my parents but I do not know everything about them. What if they have displeased God and do not have access to Heaven? Since they cannot enter Heaven then the only way to meet my spiritual desires would be to erase the part of my identity that needs to know my parents also made it to Heaven?

How could I be happy or content in Heaven when I'd just remember all the awful things that happen on Earth? My memories would surely have to be erased somehow?

Without my identity and my memories how could anyone really say that it is truly me who spends eternity with God?

After all, am I not my identity, a construct of my own memories and experiences?

If, in order to understand eternity, we would have to become non-human then how could anyone really say that Heaven or God exists?

In that process of transformation or ascension or enlightenment we would be required to abandon our human ideas of "Heaven" and "God". These concepts would no longer be necessary.

Thought provoking post.
What would you be after this existence, what would you have to become in order for what follows to make sense.
If your memories have to be erased, what would be the purpose of the experiences that created those memories?
I too wonder if all our perceptions and valuations hold water outside of this dimension.
Good post.

indioblack · 22-05-2015 05:14PM

tommy2bad wrote: »

I think this is the kind of thing the idea of a fallen world deals with. If we think of the existence we have now as "fallen" then it possible for it to be restored, all things made new again. If that's true then even the most broken can be restored, your parents get to be in heaven once restored, no matter if your dad was PolPot and mammy was Eva Braun.
Yes if your idea of your deepest desires is watching them burn in hellll for eternity then theirs going to be some conflict of interest but we are all broken so our desires are tainted untill this restoration.

In other words hope for the best and don't over think things. It gets hand waive fast!

If this unfortunate poster had Pol Pot and Eva Braun as his parents, he must have done some awful things in a previous life!
If Pol Pot were to be "returned", presumably this would have to be after he had experienced some kind of purging of his guilt for his behaviour in life.
In the Catholic tradition, Eva Braun would be a suicide - she might not reappear at all!

tommy2bad · 22-05-2015 05:27PM

indioblack wrote: »

If this unfortunate poster had Pol Pot and Eva Braun as his parents, he must have done some awful things in a previous life!
If Pol Pot were to be "returned", presumably this would have to be after he had experienced some kind of purging of his guilt for his behaviour in life.
In the Catholic tradition, Eva Braun would be a suicide - she might not reappear at all!

Fred and Rose West? Yes theirs a lot of contradictions in afterlife guesswork, annihilation or eternal punishment, purgatory or instant judgment not to mention only by accepting Jesus as your personal savour versus good works indicating baptism of desire.
I doubt anyone can venture more than I think! Claiming you know is best left to mediums who talk about astral planes.

indioblack · 22-05-2015 05:45PM

tommy2bad wrote: »

Fred and Rose West? Yes theirs a lot of contradictions in afterlife guesswork, annihilation or eternal punishment, purgatory or instant judgment not to mention only by accepting Jesus as your personal savour versus good works indicating baptism of desire.
I doubt anyone can venture more than I think! Claiming you know is best left to mediums who talk about astral planes.

So much of this is speculation and enquiry.
Some have decided to stop searching - they may feel there is no point - they have all they need.
I would imagine a believer would be in the life-long process of reaffirmation.

tommy2bad · 22-05-2015 08:48PM

indioblack wrote: »

So much of this is speculation and enquiry.
Some have decided to stop searching - they may feel there is no point - they have all they need.
I would imagine a believer would be in the life-long process of reaffirmation.

Faith my friend! We see through a glass darkly. Right now it's this life we should affirm let God take care of the next one.

indioblack · 23-05-2015 10:21AM

tommy2bad wrote: »

Faith my friend! We see through a glass darkly. Right now it's this life we should affirm let God take care of the next one.

Good reply, Tommy.
"But man He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of his mind. If He suffers us to come to such a case that there is no escaping, then we may stand to our tackle as best we can, and then we can clamour like champions, if we have the spittle for it. But it's God's part, not our own, to bring ourselves to such a pass".
We affirm this life, primarily, by accepting that this is life - in all it's aspects - positive and negative.
In the Christian tradition we are made in God's image. If that is so, then we are a small reflection of our creator.
And, therefore, all creation indicates it's creator.
All of it.

Trojan Donkey · 24-05-2015 05:02PM

I don't wish to offend anyone's beliefs, but which religion do you guys think is the most sane? I'd say Christianity.

obplayer · 24-05-2015 08:48PM

Trojan Donkey wrote: »

I don't wish to offend anyone's beliefs, but which religion do you guys think is the most sane? I'd say Christianity.

Which part of Christianity? American right Christianity - barking. Anglican Christianity - decent and civilized.

Morbert · 24-05-2015 09:50PM

Asabiyyah wrote: »

Has Orch OR theory come up in this thread already? I haven't found it. It relates to consciousness afterlife and so on.

Orch OR is a controversial theory, generally rejected by the scientific community.

The majority of physicists and philosophers of consciousness have concluded that quantum mechanics and consciousness are unrelated insofar as conscious observers play no fundamental role in quantum mechanics, and consciousness is not a quantum phenomenon.

orubiru · 25-05-2015 10:20AM

indioblack wrote: »

Thought provoking post.
What would you be after this existence, what would you have to become in order for what follows to make sense.
If your memories have to be erased, what would be the purpose of the experiences that created those memories?
I too wonder if all our perceptions and valuations hold water outside of this dimension.
Good post.

Thanks.

It's one of the pathways of thought that led me away from belief in the idea of Heaven and the concept of an afterlife.

The thing that I call "Orubiru" is constructed from things that have been around since the beginning of the universe and after I am dead there will be particles and atoms floating out there that were once part of Me. So, yeah, maybe we are everlasting in a sense but our self awareness is only temporary.

Of course it depends on how you define yourself, how you define "life" and if you think that life belongs to you personally or is it just something you are a part of. If you say "I am The Universe" then that's a definition that completely changes the nature of the conversation on Life and Death.

When it comes to Heaven, people simplify and assume too much. I was able to do this as a child but as I grew older it became more difficult to believe in some kind of eternal, blissful, existence by the side of some "God".

When a beloved relative dies we like to tell ourselves that they are up in Heaven watching over us but the reality is that we do not know who those people REALLY were. Maybe our mothers or fathers or other relatives did terrible things in life that we don't know about. If a person arrives in heaven and discovers that Dad was a cannibalistic serial killer then how does that affect them?

If your life was a story of torture and abuse then would this be forgotten in Heaven? This is a really important question for me.

If "Orubiru" is defined by my experiences, memories, beliefs, choices and other things like those then my concern would be that "eternal life at Gods side" would feel pretty much the same as regular life. Unless I was transformed somehow and if such a transformation took place then wouldn't "Orubiru" be lost in the mix? What if I don't want that?

As a young adult (even on these boards as an adult actually) the response to such questions was generally something like "why can't you just have an open mind" and I never found that to be satisfactory.

This is why I wouldn't say "there is no God" or "there is no Heaven" I would simply say NOBODY has presented evidence to convince me that such things exist. So, I cannot believe. There are too many questions and no decent answers.

indioblack · 25-05-2015 11:40AM

orubiru wrote: »

Thanks.

It's one of the pathways of thought that led me away from belief in the idea of Heaven and the concept of an afterlife.

The thing that I call "Orubiru" is constructed from things that have been around since the beginning of the universe and after I am dead there will be particles and atoms floating out there that were once part of Me. So, yeah, maybe we are everlasting in a sense but our self awareness is only temporary.

Of course it depends on how you define yourself, how you define "life" and if you think that life belongs to you personally or is it just something you are a part of. If you say "I am The Universe" then that's a definition that completely changes the nature of the conversation on Life and Death.

When it comes to Heaven, people simplify and assume too much. I was able to do this as a child but as I grew older it became more difficult to believe in some kind of eternal, blissful, existence by the side of some "God".

When a beloved relative dies we like to tell ourselves that they are up in Heaven watching over us but the reality is that we do not know who those people REALLY were. Maybe our mothers or fathers or other relatives did terrible things in life that we don't know about. If a person arrives in heaven and discovers that Dad was a cannibalistic serial killer then how does that affect them?

If your life was a story of torture and abuse then would this be forgotten in Heaven? This is a really important question for me.

If "Orubiru" is defined by my experiences, memories, beliefs, choices and other things like those then my concern would be that "eternal life at Gods side" would feel pretty much the same as regular life. Unless I was transformed somehow and if such a transformation took place then wouldn't "Orubiru" be lost in the mix? What if I don't want that?

As a young adult (even on these boards as an adult actually) the response to such questions was generally something like "why can't you just have an open mind" and I never found that to be satisfactory.

This is why I wouldn't say "there is no God" or "there is no Heaven" I would simply say NOBODY has presented evidence to convince me that such things exist. So, I cannot believe. There are too many questions and no decent answers.

It seems redundant that our conscious self- awareness should simply vanish at the end. Or is that wrong? It has it's purpose in this life - maybe it's not needed afterwards.
Perhaps another form of consciousness, awareness, is required if we carry on.
Sitting on a cloud in heaven with God in eternal serenity would surely become boring after a few millennia! It wouldn't suit us as we see ourselves in this life - and it surely wouldn't be what a conscious god would want for us either. We are restless creatures - wouldn't we always be wanting to do something - hopefully something with growth in it?
We can't imagine our own ending - we are probably too grounded in this world.
And yet a year ago I sat by my brother's coffin. He knew that an end would come - he was very ill - but he probably couldn't see his own ending, and all that it could mean, any more than us. Was I sitting next to a cold body? Yes. I could almost imagine him suddenly starting to speak, effing and blinding, as he did, about the government, rugby, and the English!
But he didn't. If he was anywhere, it wasn't there - next to me.
And if he was anywhere, I doubt if our mortal concerns would be of much interest to him. Hopefully he had moved on.
As in your post, moved on to what? Merging back into the universe - without thought as we have it? Would there be anything of the person in life that I could identify as the person who lived here?
We need to give purpose to things -even the end of mortality.
Hopefully that is not in error.

steamengine · 25-05-2015 12:30PM

indioblack wrote: »

It seems redundant that our conscious self- awareness should simply vanish at the end. Or is that wrong? It has it's purpose in this life - maybe it's not needed afterwards.
Perhaps another form of consciousness, awareness, is required if we carry on.
Sitting on a cloud in heaven with God in eternal serenity would surely become boring after a few millennia! It wouldn't suit us as we see ourselves in this life - and it surely wouldn't be what a conscious god would want for us either. We are restless creatures - wouldn't we always be wanting to do something - hopefully something with growth in it?
We can't imagine our own ending - we are probably too grounded in this world.
And yet a year ago I sat by my brother's coffin. He knew that an end would come - he was very ill - but he probably couldn't see his own ending, and all that it could mean, any more than us. Was I sitting next to a cold body? Yes. I could almost imagine him suddenly starting to speak, effing and blinding, as he did, about the government, rugby, and the English!
But he didn't. If he was anywhere, it wasn't there - next to me.
And if he was anywhere, I doubt if our mortal concerns would be of much interest to him. Hopefully he had moved on.
As in your post, moved on to what? Merging back into the universe - without thought as we have it? Would there be anything of the person in life that I could identify as the person who lived here?
We need to give purpose to things -even the end of mortality.
Hopefully that is not in error.

Might I suggest that you read the following book by Colm Keane. It's titled 'Heading for the Light' and centres on 10 things that happen when you die. ISBN 978-0-9559133-6-5. It may answer some of the points you raise.

ibstar · 25-05-2015 12:33PM

I'd like to end this one quickly with Newton's flaming laser sword.

ibstar · 25-05-2015 12:35PM

Trojan Donkey wrote: »

I don't wish to offend anyone's beliefs, but which religion do you guys think is the most sane? I'd say Christianity.

None. It takes an insane person to believe nonsense like religion.

Delirium · 25-05-2015 12:44PM

ibstar wrote: »

None. It takes an insane person to believe nonsense like religion.

MOD NOTE

Less of the insulting generalisations please.

Thanks for your attention.

Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

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