Same Sex Marriage Referendum Mega Thread - MOD WARNING IN FIRST POST

AtomicHorror · 22-05-2015 01:44PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

People should be free to vote their conscience without fear of ridicule or abuse (and that goes equally for both sides)

They are. Secret ballot. However nobody is free to express their opinion without consequence. That's not voting, it's not secret and it should be obvious. The problem is people unfamiliar with having their opinions challenged. They see this as censorship, silencing, intimidation, bullying. Except that their opinions are still all over lamp posts, internet posts, newspapers, TV.

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

and the will of the people should be represented by those eligible to vote - not those just home for a day-trip (with questionable/suspect eligibility) to be "progressive" and "cool" on FB

Back it up. Show us the evidence of what fraction are voting when they are not eligible.

As to their motives- will we check everyone's motives to see if they're acceptable to you? Is that democracy?

K4t · 22-05-2015 01:45PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Because this has morphed from a legitimate issue

A nothing statement.

to a social (media) experiment where only those voting the "right" way would dare post such popularity contest nonsense.

This is not a social media experiment, it's a national referendum. And the idea that people are afraid to voice their opinion is beyond tiresome to listen to at this stage. It's very easy to say no voters are afraid to speak out and that they are being silenced; it means their reasons for voting no are free from scrutiny and any criticism. Maybe, just maybe, the real reason is that they know their arguments have all been endlessly refuted and that they know they are on the wrong side of fairness and equality. I guess we cannot know, when they are too scared to speak apparently.

AtomicHorror · 22-05-2015 01:45PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Tell that to the posters here who (for whatever reason) are against it and have been "jumped on" by the Yes side

Jumped on, sure. Will they be in the voting booth with them too?

NewCorkLad · 22-05-2015 01:47PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

.. although I'd rather we tackled the inequality faced by unmarried heterosexual couples, and single fathers (who proportionally make up a far bigger percentage of the population) as well/first TBH

What inequality for unmarried heterosexual couples they can get married at any time?

Single fathers is a very different issue.

tigger123 · 22-05-2015 01:48PM

RobertKK wrote: »

If this was a referendum and it was titled, 'Do you respect, cherish and love your fellow citizens who are homosexual'. I would not have to think about it and it would be a most definite yes.
If I vote no, it doesn't mean I have anything against anyone. It is not how I live my life. I live by doing what I believe.
January of 2014, I sent in a text to Newstalk, it was read out, a person who appears on the show regularly called me a bigot for believing marriage is between a man and a woman, and I was told not to vote on it. That has nothing to do with you, but that reply I got shocked me.
I would say fair enough if I hated gay people, which I don't. But this Yes voter was also calling all no voters bigots.
I am accepting of other people to hold views contrary to mine, that is their right, it is not upto me to judge other people on their views, I don't know how or what circumstances helped form their views, so to judge would be wrong.
So tomorrow when the expected Yes result ensues, I will not be bitter and twisted over it, like some are with a referendum that happened in 1983. I will say well done to the Yes side. I believe if one believes in Yes or No, they are right to fight for what they believe, and in a civilised manner.
I don't hate or dislike anyone here, we may just disagree, but once people are being honest that is the most important thing.
I will be highly surprised if No wins, and lets say for argument sake they do, I don't believe it would be right to be triumphant about it. I don't believe whatever the result it should be about rubbing people's faces in it.
Both sides argued for what they believed, and I think everyone will be relieved it will be over.
I don't think my vote will make any difference, it will have more bearing on the by election.

If the No side were willing to take a live and live attitude (as you're implying in your post) they wouldn't be voting No. They'd either abstain or vote Yes.

The No side are trying to impose their values on other people, which is wrong.

Robert, your life won't change if a Yes is returned tomorrow, but it will make lots of other people happy.

PopePalpatine · 22-05-2015 01:48PM

wakka12 wrote: »

Well the literally hundred or so 'I voted 'post things Ive seen on Facebook are quite encouraging to say the least

To be fair, I had a look at the Facebook page graphing the voters, there were a few from before 7am so it may be a little inaccurate. There's also a lot more women voting than men according to that page.

RobertKK · 22-05-2015 01:49PM

El Weirdo wrote: »

But not enough to want them to have the same rights as straight people?

I think some people are very unaccepting of differences and instead want sameness, as if being different is wrong, so then believe they need to change things and call things a right to allow sameness and remove difference.

K4t · 22-05-2015 01:49PM

AtomicHorror wrote: »

The problem is people unfamiliar with having their opinions challenged. They see this as censorship, silencing, intimidation, bullying.

This. Typical religious rationale. All for freedom of conscience and religious belief, but not so much for other people's, which is offensive, or somehow infringes on their own if it is disagreeable to their own belief. Helps explain the problem with institutions like Iona too where they all share each others views on issues like this, and take most of their wisdom from the one book..

mylefttesticle · 22-05-2015 01:51PM

RobertKK wrote: »

If this was a referendum and it was titled, 'Do you respect, cherish and love your fellow citizens who are homosexual'. I would not have to think about it and it would be a most definite yes.
If I vote no, it doesn't mean I have anything against anyone. It is not how I live my life. I live by doing what I believe.
January of 2014, I sent in a text to Newstalk, it was read out, a person who appears on the show regularly called me a bigot for believing marriage is between a man and a woman, and I was told not to vote on it. That has nothing to do with you, but that reply I got shocked me.
I would say fair enough if I hated gay people, which I don't. But this Yes voter was also calling all no voters bigots.
I am accepting of other people to hold views contrary to mine, that is their right, it is not upto me to judge other people on their views, I don't know how or what circumstances helped form their views, so to judge would be wrong.
So tomorrow when the expected Yes result ensues, I will not be bitter and twisted over it, like some are with a referendum that happened in 1983. I will say well done to the Yes side. I believe if one believes in Yes or No, they are right to fight for what they believe, and in a civilised manner.
I don't hate or dislike anyone here, we may just disagree, but once people are being honest that is the most important thing.
I will be highly surprised if No wins, and lets say for argument sake they do, I don't believe it would be right to be triumphant about it. I don't believe whatever the result it should be about rubbing people's faces in it.
Both sides argued for what they believed, and I think everyone will be relieved it will be over.

I don't think my vote will make any difference, it will have more bearing on the by election.

Give it a rest! You cant have a % of equality it has to be whole! You might have been shocked and offended by some loose remark by a radio station but maybe whats more shocking would be to be told you cant marry the love of your life, i wonder how you feel then.

RobertKK · 22-05-2015 01:51PM

tigger123 wrote: »

If the No side were willing to take a live and live attitude (as you're implying in your post) they wouldn't be voting No. They'd either abstain or vote Yes.

The No side are trying to impose their values on other people, which is wrong.

Robert, your life won't change if a Yes is returned tomorrow, but it will make lots of other people happy.

One can argue, each side is trying to impose their values.

MathDebater · 22-05-2015 01:52PM

"You must be at least 18 years of age on 15 February, the day the Register comes into force. You must also have been ordinarily resident in the State on 1 September in the year before the Register comes into force."

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_to_ireland/introduction_to_the_irish_system/right_to_vote.html#l862a3

Are people going to have us believe that all those returning home where ordinarily resident in the state on Sept 1 2014?

_Kaiser_ · 22-05-2015 01:52PM

NewCorkLad wrote: »

What inequality for unmarried heterosexual couples they can get married at any time?

Yes but if we're all about "equality" today then they shouldn't have to in order to be equal to married couples (welfare, tax, Guardianship etc - here you go). Today referendum does nothing to change that - if anything it marginalises them even more.

Single fathers is a very different issue.

Yep and one that's around a lot longer than this issue yet I guess it's not as "popular" so no rush...

tigger123 · 22-05-2015 01:52PM

PopePalpatine wrote: »

To be fair, I had a look at the Facebook page graphing the voters, there were a few from before 7am so it may be a little inaccurate. There's also a lot more women voting than men according to that page.

Doesn't the FB widget thingy say "I'm Voting" ... as in, I will vote today, not that I have voted, or which way the person has voted?

keithclancy · 22-05-2015 01:53PM

MathDebater wrote: »

They can find out if they have been non resident for 18 months prior. All Irish citizens should be allowed vote? That's great. Six million people in the UK can obtain an Irish passport through descent. I'd hazzard that a couple of million in North America would be qualified to obtain an Irish passport too.

Still think all Irish passport holders should be allowed vote regardless? The law is there for good reason.

No they can't.

Please explain how they could.

NewCorkLad · 22-05-2015 01:53PM

MathDebater wrote: »

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_to_ireland/introduction_to_the_irish_system/right_to_vote.html#l862a3

Are people going to have us believe that all those returning home where ordinarily resident in the state on Sept 1 2014?

Do you have proof to the contrary?

To Elland Back · 22-05-2015 01:53PM

K4t wrote: »

Brace yourselves...abortion is coming.

Another serious issue, but let's get them all out there in turn. Society evolves and the laws of the land should be revisited regularly. Not necessarily changed, but reviewed to see if they are still what the people want

seamus · 22-05-2015 01:54PM

MathDebater wrote: »

There has never before been so many people returning just to vote. It is unprecedented. All those returning to vote left after September and plan to return by next March, do they? Extremely unlikely and well you know it. Don't insult either of our intelligence by repeating otherwise. Anyone on Facebook and under 35 could find at least a couple of instances where electoral fraud is being committed by those on their friends list.

I'm sure they could.

I never said that none of them were committing fraud, just that you have no proof that it's anything beyond normal.

Likewise I'm sure you'll find plenty of people using multiple voting cards, and voting cards for deceased relatives.

There is always a certain amount of fraud - especially with a registration system as disjointed as ours. I'm not convinced there's anything exceptional going on here except for people away on their travels coming home a little earlier.

I'd be amazed if there are many instances of people who've been away for two years returning now and still being on the register.

tigger123 · 22-05-2015 01:54PM

RobertKK wrote: »

One can argue, each side is trying to impose their values.

Nope. How is allowing same sex marriage going to effect your life Robert? How is that specific value going to impact your life?

Not a NSA agent · 22-05-2015 01:55PM

MathDebater wrote: »

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_to_ireland/introduction_to_the_irish_system/right_to_vote.html#l862a3

Are people going to have us believe that all those returning home where ordinarily resident in the state on Sept 1 2014?

There are probably some but we have no way of knowing or how they are voting, it could be anything between none and all.

JohnnyChimpo · 22-05-2015 01:55PM

PopePalpatine wrote: »

To be fair, I had a look at the Facebook page graphing the voters, there were a few from before 7am so it may be a little inaccurate. There's also a lot more women voting than men according to that page.

I'm pretty sure the more reasonable conclusion is that women are more likely to share a status about voting on social media.

whatismyname · 22-05-2015 01:56PM

tigger123 wrote: »

Doesn't the FB widget thingy say "I'm Voting" ... as in, I will vote today, not that I have voted, or which way the person has voted?

Yes but several people have been referring to it indicating that people have been voting yes... Maybe I'm using a different facebook....

RobertKK · 22-05-2015 01:56PM

mylefttesticle wrote: »

Give it a rest! You cant have a % of equality it has to be whole! You might have been shocked and offended by some loose remark by a radio station but maybe whats more shocking would be to be told you cant marry the love of your life, i wonder how you feel then.

It wasn't a loose remark, the usual presenter was away when this person appeared on the show. When the usual presenter was back the following week with the person who had called me a bigot, I texted in about that comment, the person repeated it and the presenter was surprised when reading out my text on air to said person.
I wouldn't care if I couldn't marry. Whether heterosexual or homosexual, you don't need it to love someone.

galljga1 · 22-05-2015 01:56PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Tell that to the posters here who (for whatever reason) are against it and have been "jumped on" by the Yes side

That's what I disagree with .. not the right of two people to get married regardless of their gender .. although I'd rather we tackled the inequality faced by unmarried heterosexual couples, and single fathers (who proportionally make up a far bigger percentage of the population) as well/first TBH

When you are faced by a tirade of made up offensive nonsense on a daily basis you have a duty to tear apart the puerile arguments that have been constantly regurgitated. Roll on tomorrow.

Vivisectus · 22-05-2015 01:57PM

RobertKK wrote: »

If this was a referendum and it was titled, 'Do you respect, cherish and love your fellow citizens who are homosexual'. I would not have to think about it and it would be a most definite yes.
If I vote no, it doesn't mean I have anything against anyone. It is not how I live my life. I live by doing what I believe.
January of 2014, I sent in a text to Newstalk, it was read out, a person who appears on the show regularly called me a bigot for believing marriage is between a man and a woman, and I was told not to vote on it. That has nothing to do with you, but that reply I got shocked me.
I would say fair enough if I hated gay people, which I don't. But this Yes voter was also calling all no voters bigots.
I am accepting of other people to hold views contrary to mine, that is their right, it is not upto me to judge other people on their views, I don't know how or what circumstances helped form their views, so to judge would be wrong.
So tomorrow when the expected Yes result ensues, I will not be bitter and twisted over it, like some are with a referendum that happened in 1983. I will say well done to the Yes side. I believe if one believes in Yes or No, they are right to fight for what they believe, and in a civilised manner.
I don't hate or dislike anyone here, we may just disagree, but once people are being honest that is the most important thing.
I will be highly surprised if No wins, and lets say for argument sake they do, I don't believe it would be right to be triumphant about it. I don't believe whatever the result it should be about rubbing people's faces in it.
Both sides argued for what they believed, and I think everyone will be relieved it will be over.
I don't think my vote will make any difference, it will have more bearing on the by election.

I can have nothing against dark-haired people, but still feel very strongly that driving cars is something that is only for people with light hair. Unless I can supply a really good, rational reason why this is not unfair, my position is inherently bigoted.

You confuse having your opinion challenged with some sort of ad hominem.

RobertKK · 22-05-2015 01:58PM

tigger123 wrote: »

Nope. How is allowing same sex marriage going to effect your life Robert? How is that specific value going to impact your life?

It further removes the state from what I believe.

AtomicHorror · 22-05-2015 01:58PM

MathDebater wrote: »

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_to_ireland/introduction_to_the_irish_system/right_to_vote.html#l862a3

Are people going to have us believe that all those returning home where ordinarily resident in the state on Sept 1 2014?

Argument from incredulity. Unlikely things are not impossible things, and nobody is claiming that everyone returning home is eligible to vote or that they're even planning to vote.

Another hole in your logic- people who are ineligible to vote are less likely to bother taking the risk to come home. So the group making the effort are gong to be skewed in favour of those eligible.

Also, please, back up your suggestions with something concrete.

mylefttesticle · 22-05-2015 01:58PM

RobertKK wrote: »

It wasn't a loose remark, the usual presenter was away when this person appeared on the show. When the usual presenter was back the following week with the person who had called me a bigot, I texted in about that comment, the person repeated it and the presenter was surprised when reading out my text on air to said person.
I wouldn't care if I couldn't marry. Whether heterosexual or homosexual, you don't need it to love someone.

You miss the point! You might not care but many do, i don't mind being a slave so why should anyone else?

PS. **** on both sides, but so what! If you like the idea of equality vote yes, if you don't then vote no. Its that simple.

NewCorkLad · 22-05-2015 01:58PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Yes but if we're all about "equality" today then they shouldn't have to in order to be equal to married couples (welfare, tax, Guardianship etc - here you go). Today referendum does nothing to change that - if anything it marginalises them even more.

Yep and one that's around a lot longer than this issue yet I guess it's not as "popular" so no rush...

Of course they should have to make a commitment in order to get the benefits of a married couple. If they want the benefits, marriage just comes down to some form filling.

Nothing to do with popularity just a much more complicated issue.

BizzyC · 22-05-2015 01:58PM

RobertKK wrote: »

I think some people are very unaccepting of differences and instead want sameness, as if being different is wrong, so then believe they need to change things and call things a right to allow sameness and remove difference.

It's not just people saying these things though.
The constitution lays it out as a right, but not one that's afforded to same sex couples.

People can have whatever opinion they want, and can lobby for a change in laws all they want, but our constitution should be open and accepting to all people without treating one group of its citizens with a greater degree of legal protection than another.

RobertKK · 22-05-2015 01:59PM

Vivisectus wrote: »

I can have nothing against dark-haired people, but still feel very strongly that driving cars is something that is only for people with light hair. Unless I can supply a really good, rational reason why this is not unfair, my position is inherently bigoted.

You confuse having your opinion challenged with some sort of ad hominem.

Maybe you can see light haired people in the dark while driving....

Same Sex Marriage Referendum Mega Thread - MOD WARNING IN FIRST POST

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