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To beg publishers or to self publish???

  • 06-05-2015 7:05pm
    #1
    Carinamc
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭


    I've just written my first novel, I've loved the journey of writing and fell in love with my characters! I'd write for hours and be amazed at what direction the plot took! Sometimes I would close the laptop and think wow I didn't see that one coming!! I would love to get it published now but am at that stumbling block where I don't know where to turn really! I was offered a contribution based contract, but it's €3,500 I have to give them to be published. I'm new to all this and admittedly naive and eager to be published but it just seems like a lot of money to hand over! Should I beg, plead and cry for a traditional publishing company or take the plunge and go down the self publishing route??? Any advice would be sooooo welcome 😊


Comments

  • #2
    Buona Fortuna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,507 ✭✭✭Buona Fortuna


    Hi Carinmac

    I'm not a writer, but have you discounted the Amazon / Kindle route?

    https://kdp.amazon.com/help?topicId=A32I2OF1510VZV

    It just strikes me as better than laying out your own hard earned. Once its up there get all your friends and family, fb contacts to look at a sample and then hopefully buy it.

    All the very best ;)


  • #3
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    What do you get for your €3,500? I wouldn't be in a hurry to part with that sort of money, Self publishing would be a fraction of the price. Have you shown the completed book to anybody? Is it any good? :)

    ****



  • #4
    Carinamc
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭Carinamc


    Hi there, basically they publish it for you but then they get to keep a percentage of the profits u would make on it, a good percentage at that! I've shown the book to a number of people who I trust to be brutally honest and all have insisted it is a great story and I should pursue publishing...but still they are my friends lol!!!!


  • #5
    Das Kitty
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 17,231 Mod ✭✭✭✭Das Kitty


    Generally speaking, they should be paying you. Any publisher who asks you for money is one to avoid IMO. They tend to be vanity publishers, and you'll end up out of pocket when the book doesn't sell.

    Have you shared any of your book with anyone who isn't a friend?

    If they're all telling you it's brilliant, they're not giving good feedback. There is always something that can be improved, some suggestion to make, so if they're not making them, they just want you to be happy with positive feedback.

    Writing a book is one thing, bringing it to the state where it's ready for publishing is another. Especially if you're writing by the seat of your pants. It takes time to get it in good shape. (That's how I write, so I speak from experience).

    There are a few options.

    - You could pay someone to give you a reader's review on structure and story.
    - You could join a writers' group and workshop it.
    - You could sign up for a creative writing class and work on it there.

    If you love this book, don't send it to publishers / agents without making sure it's the best it can possibly be. You only get one chance with each of them, and if you send it again later with work done they won't look at it.


  • #6
    dandyelevan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 257 ✭✭dandyelevan


    There's a big difference between self publishing and Vanity publishing


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  • #7
    Das Kitty
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 17,231 Mod ✭✭✭✭Das Kitty


    dandyelevan wrote: »
    There's a big difference between self publishing and Vanity publishing

    I agree. But they guys you pay to publish for you are there to get money from vanity publications. They don't give a hoot if the book is riddled with typos so long as you fork over the money.


  • #8
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    Carinamc wrote: »
    I was offered a contribution based contract, but it's €3,500 I have to give them to be published. I'm new to all this and admittedly naive and eager to be published but it just seems like a lot of money to hand over!

    Beware.......

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zg6j9mlw7Wo


  • #9
    echo beach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,252 ✭✭✭echo beach


    Think of all the things you could do with €3,500. Is this really how you want to spend it?
    Take the advice given. Keep your money in your bank account and work on the book until it can make you money, or at least not cost you any.

    I'm a bit worried that you say you are in love with your characters. Love is blind. You need somebody who doesn't have that emotional attachment to tell you honestly if they are believable and if the plot is well constructed.


  • #10
    Carinamc
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭Carinamc


    Thanks so much for all the advice!!!!


  • #11
    buiscuit2168
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56 ✭✭buiscuit2168


    My advice is to stay well clear. I know someone who was left with tones of unsold books who paid a self publisher excessive money and they did no publicizing for them. Create Space on Amazon you have total control.


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  • #12
    kaloshma
    Registered Users Posts: 55 ✭✭kaloshma


    Try google books, scribs, amazon and loads of other digital publisher online.


  • #13
    Geniass
    Closed Accounts Posts: 643 ✭✭✭Geniass


    Carinamc wrote: »
    Thanks so much for all the advice!!!!





    Just to add to the general advice.

    A publisher will critique, edit and polish your work and publish if it's good enough. They will earn their money from selling your book. They will pay you, and not the other way around.

    The situation you describe is a company that will turn your writing into book form. That is how they make their money. They wont care if it sells a single book after this, although they will be happy for you to buy books off them to sell to your friends.

    There is far cheaper options out there and you'll get your book printed and you can give some to the friends that enjoyed your writing.

    Please don't give this company €3.5k for a hundred euros worth of service.


  • #14
    Geniass
    Closed Accounts Posts: 643 ✭✭✭Geniass


    dandyelevan wrote: »
    There's a big difference between self publishing and Vanity publishing





    Not all self published work is vanity publishing, but all vanity publishing is self published.


  • #15
    Carinamc
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭Carinamc


    Thanks a million everyone! Ok I'm gonna seriously look into self publishing....where to start 😱😱😱


  • #16
    Kidsstories
    Registered Users Posts: 33 ✭Kidsstories


    Yeah that sounds like a rip off. Amazon KDP and Create space don't charge anything for self publishing. KDP is for kindle and create space is for paperback. It's very user friendly. That's what I do and it's great.


  • #17
    Carinamc
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭Carinamc


    When u publish on create space should your book be already edited and have a cover design or is that done through create space?


  • #18
    Zillah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    If you're considering spending some money on this process I think it would be worth spending a couple hundred yoyos on getting a professional editor to read through your book and give you detailed advice on what you should change before seeking publishing. They'll cut through any problems like a knife through butter in a way that simply isn't possible without a huge amount of experience. There's nothing quite like getting firm, actionable feedback.

    After that, once it's good enough, you can try looking for an agent/publisher knowing you have a book that's been through the exact sort of filtering process that they would use.


  • #19
    Kidsstories
    Registered Users Posts: 33 ✭Kidsstories


    Ah yeah , everything has to be edited with cover etc before you upload to amazon. Good thing is they don't charge anythibg for uploading updated versions. Also fiver.com is a great website for finding editors designers etc starting off at $5. Start off with the kindle and go from there.


  • #20
    Das Kitty
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 17,231 Mod ✭✭✭✭Das Kitty


    Zillah wrote: »
    If you're considering spending some money on this process I think it would be worth spending a couple hundred yoyos on getting a professional editor to read through your book and give you detailed advice on what you should change before seeking publishing. They'll cut through any problems like a knife through butter in a way that simply isn't possible without a huge amount of experience. There's nothing quite like getting firm, actionable feedback.

    After that, once it's good enough, you can try looking for an agent/publisher knowing you have a book that's been through the exact sort of filtering process that they would use.

    I've heard good thinks about Inkwell through writing.ie, although I haven't used them myself. Anyone you can recommend, Zillah?


  • #21
    Kidsstories
    Registered Users Posts: 33 ✭Kidsstories


    inkwell are good and Vanessa O loughlin who runs it is lovely. I've met her before for a consult


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  • #22
    Carinamc
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭Carinamc


    Great thanks so much all!


  • #23
    Carinamc
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭Carinamc


    I came across inkwell while researching it all actually!!! :-)


  • #24
    buiscuit2168
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56 ✭✭buiscuit2168


    Kidsstories wrote: »
    inkwell are good and Vanessa O loughlin who runs it is lovely. I've met her before for a consult

    She owns Kazoo Self Publishers, and they are so expensive.


  • #25
    Carinamc
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭Carinamc


    Oh really! Are there any more recommendations?


  • #26
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    My own experience of self-publishing - with a self publishing company as opposed to self publishing completely by myself - is with
    Grosvenor House: http://www.grosvenorhousepublishing.co.uk/ and I can recommend them. The cost of a basic package comes in at around €1k but it suited me. I found the cover artwork online and contacted the artist to alter it to suit my requirements - more expense but there you have it.

    http://www.grosvenorhousepublishing.co.uk/uploads/images/gallery/1251487107Collect-Ireland.jpg

    A major disadvantage with self publishing is distribution. Some shops will only take books from certain wholesalers who in turn gouge you for their percentage. If you undertake distribution yourself be prepared for lots of hard work, selling, delivering, invoicing, returns of unsold stock (often in unsaleable condition) and delays in payment. Enjoy. :)

    ****



  • #27
    Carinamc
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭Carinamc


    Oh Lord! 😱😱😱


  • #28
    femur61
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭femur61


    Das Kitty wrote: »
    I've heard good thinks about Inkwell through writing.ie, although I haven't used them myself. Anyone you can recommend, Zillah?

    Inkwell and Writing.ie are one and the same.


  • #29
    Das Kitty
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 17,231 Mod ✭✭✭✭Das Kitty


    femur61 wrote: »
    Inkwell and Writing.ie are one and the same.

    That's what I meant.

    I heard good things from other writers about them.


  • #30
    buiscuit2168
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56 ✭✭buiscuit2168


    Das Kitty wrote: »
    That's what I meant.

    I heard good things from other writers about them.

    Personally, I was charged a lot of money for consultancy work and told to self publish then left with lots of unsold books. And I have not been the only one.


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  • #31
    zeffabelli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,516 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    buiscuit2168 wrote: »
    Personally, I was charged a lot of money for consultancy work and told to self publish then left with lots of unsold books. And I have not been the only one.

    Publishing is in a state of uncertainty.

    Plenty of writers have novels stuck in drawers that never see the light of day....there is only opportunity..there are no guarantees.

    What you need is an agent.


  • #32
    Carinamc
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭Carinamc


    So look for an agent instead of self publishing?


  • #33
    femur61
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭femur61


    Carinamc wrote: »
    So look for an agent instead of self publishing?

    Personally, I am looking for an agent or go direct to the publishers, they have guidelines on their websites.

    Plenty of people self publish, I think the message is don't get hooked by self publishers who charge loads of money with the promise of book sales. You could go print on demand so you don't overprint like one of the other posters said they were advised to do.

    It is up to you but if you go main stream publishing they publishers takes the hit if books are left unsold. The beauty of self publishing for some, you have total control of the book.

    If you self publish, you have to market the book yourself and you will find it hard to get into book shops. Also, you will find it hard to get critiqued and you know if it is a positive ciritique from a well known resource then that is a great marketing blurb to have on the back of your book. Be under no illusion self publishing is hard work but can be satisfying to see your book in print. It can be very cheap there are loads of self publishers on the market.


  • #34
    maccored
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,736 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    surprised no-one has mentioned www.lulu.com. no upfront money required and you can buy your own books at a discount. even proper publishers charge authors for copies (mine charges 7.50 per book to me, so Lulu is actually cheaper.) Downside is (as mentioned already) that you have to sort your own distribution. Upside is you can charge your own price rather than having to go with the publishers price.


  • #35
    Geniass
    Closed Accounts Posts: 643 ✭✭✭Geniass


    maccored wrote: »
    Upside is you can charge your own price rather than having to go with the publishers price.

    There will always be a minimum price acceptable to the printing company, obviously.


  • #36
    maccored
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,736 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    Geniass wrote: »
    There will always be a minimum price acceptable to the printing company, obviously.

    the min is much less than the publishers minimum


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  • #37
    Geniass
    Closed Accounts Posts: 643 ✭✭✭Geniass


    maccored wrote: »
    the min is much less than the publishers minimum

    Good to hear there's competition in the market, and a book printers will most likely, imo, be better than those that claim to publish for those that want to go the self publish route.


  • #38
    Brian Lighthouse
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 514 ✭✭✭Brian Lighthouse


    There's a crowd in London that are a subsidiary of Oak Tree Press (London) - not the Irish Oak Tree Press, that is completely different. I was told that they specialise in finding unpublished authors and you can send them your book.
    I don't know if it is a 100% vanity operation, or if they are a more traditional operation, but I do know that a chap I interviewed once was delighted to hear back from them that they accepted both of his books to be published. They were published in both paperback and as ebooks, but I don't know how they sold. I think one local shop has stocked them.
    I just got the website now: http://www.andrewsuk.com/
    Check it out

    £450 - one-off fee for print on demand, fiction up to 80k words. Interesting indeed - compared to the prices mentioned on this forum already: http://www.andrewsuk.com/pod/


  • #39
    maccored
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,736 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    Geniass wrote: »
    Good to hear there's competition in the market, and a book printers will most likely, imo, be better than those that claim to publish for those that want to go the self publish route.

    in this digital age, surely its best to digitally self publish rather than spend money on physical books? Publishers do both, and market them around the world - which is brilliant ... but if a writer hasnt got a publisher, free digital publishers (who charge you a minimum per sale and let you keep the extra with no money up front) has to be the way forward. I dont know if its worth going to a printing company and spending a grand or two printing up a batch of books.


  • #40
    Das Kitty
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 17,231 Mod ✭✭✭✭Das Kitty


    I learned at the weekend that traditional publishers look at the top ebook sellers and approach authors. You'd need to be selling a lot.

    Traditional publishers don't like cross-genre when they see it in the slush-pile, but it sometimes works well in self published ebooks.


  • #41
    Trojan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,414 ✭✭✭✭Trojan


    Don't pay large amounts to a publisher without understanding exactly what you're getting. Here are some services you might want to pay individuals or a company for:

    Line & copy editing, proofreading
    Typography & layout
    Cover design
    Printing, publishing to ebook format & online stores
    Marketing

    If you are getting some or all of these from a 'vanity publisher', it may actually make sense to go with them, but ensure you're getting your money's worth. It may be financially advisable to find freelance editors, etc to perform these services.

    Whatever you do, make sure you get a 3rd party to copyedit & proofread your work.

    🎙️ The Recognized Authority Podcast



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  • #42
    Geniass
    Closed Accounts Posts: 643 ✭✭✭Geniass


    Brian Lighthouse wrote: »
    I was told that they specialise in finding unpublished authors and you can send them your book.
    I don't know if it is a 100% vanity operation...

    That's pretty much what vanity publishers do, and I use the word publisher lightly.


  • #43
    Brian Lighthouse
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 514 ✭✭✭Brian Lighthouse


    Geniass wrote: »
    That's pretty much what vanity publishers do, and I use the word publisher lightly.

    But, Geniass, but, but, but, their parent company is Oak Tree Press UK????
    Now I'm totally confused, there is an Irish Oak Tree Press which has nothing to do with the UK one, and there's even a - completely independent of the other two - US one.
    AARRGGHH!!! Why did I get involved in this discussion. I genuinely thought I might have been helping. I've just confused myself and a whole host of you guys. Thanks.

    Are there any real publishers who read this forum?
    Perhaps, by revealing yourself with a wink and a nod you could let us know what's going on?

    I have a funny feeling that the availability of printing technology influences that many books which would have returned to pulp are being flogged as a print-on-demand. If you can remember that ten/fifteen years ago, anyone with a digital camera were calling themselves photographers, and now it appears that anyone with a large enough photocopier - simplistic, I know - can call themselves a publisher.

    Ara Shure! None of that will bother me, I'm a mean old miser and I'm not spending a penny on publishing books. I'll happily wait until Random House and Penguin and even that nice man from a Dublin publisher that I heard on Newstalk once carry out a bidding war for my material. I'm not in any rush.


  • #44
    Brian Lighthouse
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 514 ✭✭✭Brian Lighthouse


    Das Kitty wrote: »
    I learned at the weekend that traditional publishers look at the top ebook sellers and approach authors. You'd need to be selling a lot.

    Makes sense.
    Das Kitty wrote: »
    Traditional publishers don't like cross-genre when they see it in the slush-pile, but it sometimes works well in self published ebooks.

    Translation please? Way too much jargon.

    On another note, are you starting a VOAT?


  • #45
    Das Kitty
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 17,231 Mod ✭✭✭✭Das Kitty


    Brian Lighthouse wrote: »
    Translation please? Way too much jargon.

    Cross-genre: More than one genre in a single book.

    Slush-pile: What agents and publishers call the big pile of manuscripts submitted to them, which they have to read through.

    I'll assume you know what an ebook is :P
    On another note, are you starting a VOAT?
    I hadn't the chance to give it the thought needed until today. It's up now.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=95535306#post95535306


  • #46
    Brian Lighthouse
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 514 ✭✭✭Brian Lighthouse


    Thanks Das Kitty, for the explanations.
    Thanks also for sorting the VOAT.
    Stuff, respect 'n' all. Word.


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