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Why has the West boycotted the parade by those who saved the world from Nazism.

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Comments

  • #302
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    mulbot wrote: »
    They would still be visible to radar being used by air traffic controllers would they not? Surely air traffic control would have had an issue if any plane was crossing dangerously across airlanes and a full investigation would have followed by relevant authorities.Has that happened?

    They are only visible to military radar, so are practically invisible. Commercial airliners can't see them either and, because they turn their radar off to avoid detection, the Bears can't detect any other planes.

    This is one of the reasons why they are escorted by the various air forces as they track across Europe, the RAF typhoons that follow them around these islands will have their transponders turned on.

    There's no real safety issue, but it is a pain in the hole

    http://theaviationist.com/2015/02/19/video-inside-tu-95-bear/tp://theaviationist.com/2015/02/19/video-inside-tu-95-bear/


  • #303
    mulbot
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,769 ✭✭✭mulbot


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    They are only visible to military radar, so are practically invisible. Commercial airliners can't see them either and, because they turn their radar off to avoid detection, the Bears can't detect any other planes.

    This is one of the reasons why they are escorted by the various air forces as they track across Europe, the RAF typhoons that follow them around these islands will have their transponders turned on.

    There's no real safety issue, but it is a pain in the hole

    http://theaviationist.com/2015/02/19/video-inside-tu-95-bear/tp://theaviationist.com/2015/02/19/video-inside-tu-95-bear/

    Yea i know commercial airlines can't see but ground radar i.e. ATC can see but not identify. I think really had this been any issue, there would have been far more about it other than a clip from a newspaper etc


  • #304
    Joshua J
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,305 ✭✭✭Joshua J


    Do the US and UK militaries run drills in Russian airspace?


  • #305
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    mulbot wrote: »
    Yea i know commercial airlines can't see but ground radar i.e. ATC can see but not identify. I think really had this been any issue, there would have been far more about it other than a clip from a newspaper etc

    ATC radar only picks up the escorting fighters, because they do have their transponders on.

    It was in every newspaper and the Russian ambassador was asked to make sure it doesn't happen again.

    But that's just in Ireland. This happens almost weekly across Europe at the moment, the Norwegian and British air forces were escorting two yesterday.

    This was common place during the cold war, but started up again a couple of years ago. This year, there has been more incidents than there were in total last year.

    It is Putin trying to intimidate Europe.


  • #306
    mulbot
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,769 ✭✭✭mulbot


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    ATC radar only picks up the escorting fighters, because they do have their transponders on.

    It was in every newspaper and the Russian ambassador was asked to make sure it doesn't happen again.

    But that's just in Ireland. This happens almost weekly across Europe at the moment, the Norwegian and British air forces were escorting two yesterday.

    This was common place during the cold war, but started up again a couple of years ago. This year, there has been more incidents than there were in total last year.

    It is Putin trying to intimidate Europe.


    ATC can still see airplanes,even with transponders turned off-it just can't identify them


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  • #307
    Egginacup
    Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    No laws were broken, but you can be a complete **** without breaking laws.

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/passenger-planes-dodged-russian-bombers-315623.html

    I see. So that's it, is it? Russian aircraft conducted themselves within the strict rules of aerial operations and it has been labelled by some on here that they "threatened" if not "invaded" Irish airspace and had to be escorted away by British warplanes.


  • #308
    Jimoslimos
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,930 ✭✭✭Jimoslimos


    Egginacup wrote: »
    I see. So that's it, is it? Russian aircraft conducted themselves within the strict rules of aerial operations and it has been labelled by some on here that they "threatened" if not "invaded" Irish airspace and had to be escorted away by British warplanes.
    Poor Russia, obviously squeezed for airspace of its own that it needs to conduct these perfectly legitimate manouevers in the barren empty skies of Western Europe.

    Wonder if they do the same near Chinese airspace?


  • #309
    Egginacup
    Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    Jimoslimos wrote: »
    Poor Russia, obviously squeezed for airspace of its own that it needs to conduct these perfectly legitimate manouevers in the barren empty skies of Western Europe.

    Wonder if they do the same near Chinese airspace?

    And that's your offering?
    Some on here make this blatant lie of an accusation that Russia has invaded Irish airspace with "nuclear bombers". Then it's come to light that not only was Irish airspace not invaded but that no impropriety occurred at all. So the excuse now being proffered is that they [Russia] are being "dicks".

    And your lame contribution is that they have enough sky of their own. Why do they need to fly around in international airspace like everyone else?


  • #310
    DamagedTrax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,277 ✭✭✭DamagedTrax


    Joshua J wrote: »
    Do the US and UK militaries run drills in Russian airspace?

    both sides are always at it. where we live is all that dictates what version of the lie we get told.

    http://rt.com/news/248837-us-reconnaissance-aircraft-intercepted/


  • #311
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Egginacup wrote: »
    And that's your offering?
    Some on here make this blatant lie of an accusation that Russia has invaded Irish airspace with "nuclear bombers". Then it's come to light that not only was Irish airspace not invaded but that no impropriety occurred at all. So the excuse now being proffered is that they [Russia] are being "dicks".

    And your lame contribution is that they have enough sky of their own. Why do they need to fly around in international airspace like everyone else?

    There's no law against someone standing two inches in front of you and staring at you with wide eyes.

    But people who do it are generally considered to be trying to intimidate you.


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  • #312
    JacquesDeLad
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 969 ✭✭✭JacquesDeLad


    NATO and the Western militaries are playing up the threat from Russia in order to get more funding and Putin is doing a great job of pushing their agenda for them.


  • #313
    Joshua J
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,305 ✭✭✭Joshua J


    JacquesDeLad wrote: »
    NATO and the Western militaries are playing up the threat from Russia in order to get more funding and Putin is doing a great job of pushing their agenda for them.

    It's almost like all this international dick waving is mutually beneficial. But how could that be, they're our enemies right?


  • #314
    DamagedTrax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,277 ✭✭✭DamagedTrax


    Joshua J wrote: »
    It's almost like all this international dick waving is mutually beneficial. But how could that be, they're our enemies right?

    perpetual war = perpetual profit.


  • #315
    Egginacup
    Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    There's no law against someone standing two inches in front of you and staring at you with wide eyes.

    But people who do it are generally considered to be trying to intimidate you.

    Then if international airspace is so threatening so that if a plane flies through it that you feel like someone is getting all up in your face like some nut in a bar then have the boundaries extended even further from the landmass.

    Fratton, now you're just being puerile.

    It's one thing for Russian fighter jets and bombers to blast into someone's airspace and conduct aggressive maneuvres threatening infrastucture and lives. It's another for them to fly in international airspace, like they have been doing for decades along with every other airforce in the world, and for it to be classified as some kind of sovereignty invasion. The excuses and the lies and the spin have entered into the realm of the surreal of late.

    Russia did NOT invade Irish airspace and no violation occurred. Yet the lie is out there now and rather than step back, engage a little bit of cranial rationale and say "actually, yeah! this is a complete crock of shit", people like you are still trying to dream up some kind of inane condemnation. You're almost like alchemists banging a piece of iron with a hammer, insisting you can turn it into gold.


  • #316
    Egginacup
    Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    Grayson wrote: »
    The polish people never had a decision. They weren't living in a democracy in the 30's. However the reasoning was still strong. They said that if we allow soviet troops on our land we'll never get rid of them. Turns out they were very right about that.

    And it was a democratic poland, democratic estonia, democratic lativia etc that wanted to join NATO. Because they were scared ****less that the Russians would figure out some way to come back. The soviets were just as brutal as the nazi's in the east. They conquered and removed the right of self determination from hundreds of millions of people.

    And the soviets like Stalin are now the flavor of the month in Russia. They are putting up posters of him and whitewashing what he did. However yiou feel about Germany they have purged their nazi past. It's illegal to own, sell or display any nazi memorabilia. The germans own the guilt of what they did. I can't remember the word (because it's in German) but there is a word in german which means "the guilt felt by an entire nation for the actions of that nation".

    However the Russians in some freaky nationalist zeal are now celebrating all the horrors perpetrated by the soviets.

    What horrors are they celebrating? This is only something that you are making up in your own head. What atrocities are the Russians celebrating?

    I've already had to suffer the lies that Russia allied with the Third Reich and that Russian warplanes have invaded Irish airspace. Now I have to hear that the Russians are celebrating horrors.

    So now can you tell me what horrors they are celebrating? You verbalised it so can you please back it up or at least elaborate?


  • #317
    blatantrereg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,743 ✭✭✭blatantrereg


    the gulags would be an obvious one


  • #318
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    Egginacup wrote: »
    What horrors are they celebrating? This is only something that you are making up in your own head. What atrocities are the Russians celebrating?

    Tell us something Eggy, did the USSR invade Poland and Finland in 1939 and Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia in 1940?


  • #319
    Egginacup
    Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    Grayson wrote: »
    How about the narrow miss at a Danish airport between a russian bomber with it's transponder turned off.

    http://www.thelocal.dk/20141213/copenhagen-flight-nearly-collides-with-russian-military-jet


    This is the type of crap that is popular in Russia at the moment

    http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/vladimir-putin-victory-day-not-my-grandmother

    (btw, you should read he rest of that article. It's quite interesting)

    The simple fact is that Russians are being stoked up by propaganda from state owned media. This isn't happening in the west. We have a huge variety of media from loads opf countries. In russia at the moment there's actually pro war thought being put in the media. Just look at the vice news articles/video's to see the **** that is being said on state owned media. There is nothing like that here. There's massive debate about everything.

    In Russian however the last independent TV station was kicked out because they wanted to host a debate about Stalingrad. Should Stalin have evacuated and let the city fall or should he have defended it in the way he did (And as a history nut I can tell you that's a massively complicated question). They were shut down because that was unpatriotic.

    Can you tell me more about this independent TV station that was kicked out or banned or whatever you mention?

    I'm unfamiliar with this episode.


  • #320
    Sand
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    Egginacup wrote: »
    I've already had to suffer the lies that Russia allied with the Third Reich and that Russian warplanes have invaded Irish airspace. Now I have to hear that the Russians are celebrating horrors

    You poor dear. Mind you, the Poles had to suffer the consequences of the Soviet-Nazi alliance.

    Just think though, 30 years ago if we were having this conversation you would be furiously denying the existence of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, in line with Soviet propaganda. Now you are furiously denying that it constituted an alliance, in line with Russian propaganda.

    The more things change, the more they stay the same.


  • #321
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    I don't get the argument that Russia didn't ally with the Nazis. They formed a secret pact and invaded the same country. That's more of an alliance, de facto, than any co- ordination between Japan and Germany.


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  • #322
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Egginacup wrote: »
    What horrors are they celebrating? This is only something that you are making up in your own head. What atrocities are the Russians celebrating?

    I've already had to suffer the lies that Russia allied with the Third Reich and that Russian warplanes have invaded Irish airspace. Now I have to hear that the Russians are celebrating horrors.

    So now can you tell me what horrors they are celebrating? You verbalised it so can you please back it up or at least elaborate?
    The Soviet Union did ally with the Third Reich. They invaded Poland together.


  • #323
    Sand
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    The Soviet Union did ally with the Third Reich. They invaded Poland together.

    What is even sadder is that back in 1989, the Soviet Union acknowledged the alliance between the Soviet Union and the Nazis and denounced it as wrong and immoral. But today, the tide has shifted again and Putin and his fans are back to denying the alliance ever existed.

    Sad. Very sad.


  • #324
    Egginacup
    Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    Tell us something Eggy, did the USSR invade Poland and Finland in 1939 and Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia in 1940?

    Grayson stated that the Russians were celebrating the horrors perpetrated by the Soviets. I asked what horrors were they celebrating. Are you weighing in to answer that question for him. If so then speak up rather than asking me a question to deflect.

    I earlier asked what laws were broken and how Irish airspace was invaded by the Russian airforce....claimed and asserted by several on here. I was met with silence or some weak attempt at saying the Russians are being "a pain in the hole". A far cry not only from screams of imminent danger but a far cry from any kind of sense.

    Now I'm told that Russians are celebrating horrors and atrocities. I would like elaboration on this latest claim.

    I have heard that the Russians allied themselves with the Nazis in World War 2. The purveyor of this inane assertion has had nothing more to say about his idiotic statement. Only for one or two other to accuse ME of being pedantic in stating that the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was in fact a non-aggression agreement and nothing to do with alliances.

    So now we have people making the most ill-educated, hysterical and fantastical claims based on nothing but gibberish and then going silent when challenged. Please tell me you have more to offer than this kind of discourse.


  • #325
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    Egginacup wrote: »
    Grayson stated that the Russians were celebrating the horrors perpetrated by the Soviets. I asked what horrors were they celebrating. Are you weighing in to answer that question for him. If so then speak up rather than asking me a question to deflect.

    I earlier asked what laws were broken and how Irish airspace was invaded by the Russian airforce....claimed and asserted by several on here. I was met with silence or some weak attempt at saying the Russians are being "a pain in the hole". A far cry not only from screams of imminent danger but a far cry from any kind of sense.

    Now I'm told that Russians are celebrating horrors and atrocities. I would like elaboration on this latest claim.

    I have heard that the Russians allied themselves with the Nazis in World War 2. The purveyor of this inane assertion has had nothing more to say about his idiotic statement. Only for one or two other to accuse ME of being pedantic in stating that the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was in fact a non-aggression agreement and nothing to do with alliances.

    So now we have people making the most ill-educated, hysterical and fantastical claims based on nothing but gibberish and then going silent when challenged. Please tell me you have more to offer than this kind of discourse.

    Who's gone silent? Most posters on this page, like most historians, agree that the Soviet Union did in fact ally itself with the nazis to carve up Poland.


  • #326
    Egginacup
    Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    The Soviet Union did ally with the Third Reich. They invaded Poland together.

    If the Soviet Union allied with the Third Reich then why didn't the Soviet Union declare war on Britain after Britain declared war on Germany?

    Please don't try to bluff me or anyone else that the non-aggression pact was an alliance. These kinds of games are immature and tiresome.


  • #327
    Egginacup
    Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    Eugene Norman wrote: »
    Who's gone silent? Most posters on this page, like most historians, agree that the Soviet Union did in fact ally itself with the nazis to carve up Poland.


    No. You're not getting away with that either. A few posters earlier made the statement that the USSR ALLIED themselves with Nazi Germany. They tried to slip in this false claims under the guise of the non-aggression pact in August 1939. It was not an alliance so please don't say it was. The people who made this claim haven't had the balls to come forward and admit that all they were doing in making such an assertion was shitstirring. Instead they are now silent allowing people like you to play their game for them.

    I'm not denying that the USSR chewed up half of Poiand while the Nazis took the other half but this was not an alliance and anyone who says so is lying.

    And for you to state that the USSR allied with Nazi Germany to invade Poland is the same as saying that Britain allied with the Germans to invade Czechoslovakia .... just that the Germans took the place over but the Brits allied with them in the invasion.

    All these farcical assertions still don't answer the question as to why western governments snubbed the Moscow celebrations of the defeat of Nazism. People are bringing up idiotic reasons like the Soviets fought with the Finns or some utter crap. The most popular narrative touted is that the Russians have invaded Ukraine. That old chestnut is still being vomitted out. Yet Kerry goes to Moscow 3 days after the parades. Some boycott of the Russians!


  • #328
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    Egginacup wrote: »
    Grayson stated that the Russians were celebrating the horrors perpetrated by the Soviets. I asked what horrors were they celebrating. Are you weighing in to answer that question for him. If so then speak up rather than asking me a question to deflect.

    I earlier asked what laws were broken and how Irish airspace was invaded by the Russian airforce....claimed and asserted by several on here. I was met with silence or some weak attempt at saying the Russians are being "a pain in the hole". A far cry not only from screams of imminent danger but a far cry from any kind of sense.

    Now I'm told that Russians are celebrating horrors and atrocities. I would like elaboration on this latest claim.

    I have heard that the Russians allied themselves with the Nazis in World War 2. The purveyor of this inane assertion has had nothing more to say about his idiotic statement. Only for one or two other to accuse ME of being pedantic in stating that the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was in fact a non-aggression agreement and nothing to do with alliances.

    So now we have people making the most ill-educated, hysterical and fantastical claims based on nothing but gibberish and then going silent when challenged. Please tell me you have more to offer than this kind of discourse.

    I'm not the one deflecting here Eggy, you are, otherwise you wouldn't have needed to go on a spiel like that to avoid answering my question.

    I'm asking an easy question, you shouldn't find it difficult to answer it surely, all it requires from you is a yes or no
    Tell us something Eggy, did the USSR invade Poland and Finland in 1939 and Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia in 1940?


  • #329
    blatantrereg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,743 ✭✭✭blatantrereg


    Egginacup wrote: »
    If the Soviet Union allied with the Third Reich then why didn't the Soviet Union declare war on Britain after Britain declared war on Germany?

    Because it was an offensive alliance, not a defensive one. They planned a simultaneous attack and agreed in advance how to divide it. This is the dictionary definition of an offensive alliance. NATO is a defensive alliance. This is why all NATO members were not obliged to attack Iraq, Afghanistan etc.


  • #330
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Egginacup wrote: »
    Then if international airspace is so threatening so that if a plane flies through it that you feel like someone is getting all up in your face like some nut in a bar then have the boundaries extended even further from the landmass.

    Fratton, now you just being puerile.

    it's ok, you can call me Fred.

    Why do you think Russian bombers, capable of delivering a tactical nuclear strike, are flying around Europe as close as possible to international boundaries?


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  • #331
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Egginacup wrote: »
    If the Soviet Union allied with the Third Reich then why didn't the Soviet Union declare war on Britain after Britain declared war on Germany?

    Please don't try to bluff me or anyone else that the non-aggression pact was an alliance. These kinds of games are immature and tiresome.

    Because that wasn't the terms of the alliance. Doesn't make it less of an alliance though. If two countries join up to divide a third that's an alliance. No matter how you want to spin it.


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