Public sector pay increase

darkpagandeath · 15-05-2015 08:07PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Everyone who has to pay for it I would imagine.

Are we not just going to borrow more money to pay for it ? Odd we cant do that for IW :pac:

KomradeBishop · 15-05-2015 08:25PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTQnarzmTOc

That's a video produced by the Libertarian 'Emergent Order' video company, who have about as much credibility as any other Libertarian think tank (probably less actually, as 'argument by YouTube' is rarely something worth responding to, when someone is asking you to commit 10 minutes of your time to watch an obviously propagandised video).

crusier · 15-05-2015 08:54PM

daithi7 wrote: »

Ehh no. Studies done by the European Union, CSO & others, allowing for education &other factors find that equivalent workers in the public service are paid 20% more than their private sector equivalents, and that is before pensions you simply could not buy in the private sector, permanency, and other benefits such as holidays, increments, sick leave ' entitlements?', etc, etc, etc

So for example an accountant with 15 years experience will earn more than 20%more in the public sector on average, before pension, permanency, holidays,and other benefit I, etc

http://m.independent.ie/business/irish/stats-dont-lie-public-sector-is-still-mollycoddled-29907776.html

Sure if you never worked a day in your life in this country and never paid taxes you are entitled to a pension worth hundreds of thousands!

Fallschirmjager · 15-05-2015 09:15PM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

That's a video produced by the Libertarian 'Emergent Order' video company, who have about as much credibility as any other Libertarian think tank (probably less actually, as 'argument by YouTube' is rarely something worth responding to, when someone is asking you to commit 10 minutes of your time to watch an obviously propagandised video).

May I ask you a few questions....and I am a libertarian (just for the record), also these question are not trick questions, it's not a gotcha post..

Where does a government get its money from?
How do you propose we get full employment (I'm guessing borrow and create jobs in the public sector as per your previous post)?
What will these people do, roughly, in the public sector?
When you count full employment what are you going to do with the people who can't or dare I say won't work?
Roughly,, how long in decades (I am not trying to be smartarseish) will it take before we pay back the loans to create full employment?
How long do you envision borrowing for (again in decades if necessary)?
How much roughly (round up to the nearest billion euro, again not trying to be smart, this after all, after hours ) should we borrow each year?
I am guessing you also fully support a high minimum wage?
Is there a point in your mind when a government should stop borrowing?
The currency we are borrowing, what is it based on, e.g. Faith like the euro or gold bases or something else?

Thanks for the clarification.

KomradeBishop · 15-05-2015 09:25PM

daithi7 wrote: »

1.So debt is reissued, and it needs to be refinanced at the going rate at that time, so when rates go up,as they undoubtedly will, the cost of our debt will spiral too. (e.g. a1% interest rate rise may equal a 30% interest servicing cost rise) See we agree on this. Interest costs!!

2. I said total debt to GDP, the 650% the imf quoted is total debt.so we agree again the Irish are the most indebted race in the world currently by nearly a factor of 2! Now that's scary!!

3. No you can't do both tax cuts &public pay increases unless of course you can actually afford it. Patently Ireland can't, as we're still borrowing more than the growth rate I.e. IRELAND IS ALREADY BORROWING FOR CURRENT EXPENDITURE.

So it's choices, if there is any fiscal wiggle roomat all it should all go towards tax cuts not, public salary increases cos they're already overpaid, CAPICHE!? Tax cuts are fairer & help all workers and hence the whole economy.

4. Governments don't increase GDP,they create the conditions that can allow for increases to occur e.g. infrastructure, productivity, lower taxes (=>more spending), etc, etc

5. Bollocks. Private pensions are already being raided (.6% levy each year) to help pay for over expensive public service salaries and pensions. Do with all due respect Your ' Plan' (ha,ha) is bogus, delusionary, toss. You do not increase your GDP by further overpaying your public servants with other people's money that you have to pay interest on for circa 30 years. Because that interest payment acts as a damper on public spending &GDP every year hereafter going forward!!

Further the salary &pension overpayment rate holds, every year after so you have stupidly committed to borrowing more each yearjust to pay your wage bills!? In so doing you also bend the economy more out of shape by stupidly overpaying a section of the workforce even more at the expense of the others. You're deluded if you think by borrowing to pay public servants more you increase the GDP of the country when our economic history and so many others show completely the opposite.

This is the deceit that is being sold to the Irish people currently. I sincerely hope labour get shafted for this, they fully deserve it imho.

P.S. Love the video you posted tho, class!

1: So any new debt you issue today, doesn't have to be reissued for 10 years - at which point GDP is already boosted. That means changes in the interest rate within the next 10 years, aren't going to affect us any more than they already would have anyway.
You're automatically assuming the debt will be reissued: You don't have to reissue debt.

2: Yes that figure is highly emotive/scary. By bundling up public and private debt, you're ignoring how different they are.

3: Yes you can, you use public debt. The affordability/sustainability of which depends on interest rates, not on overall 'Public Debt vs GDP'.

4: This is wrong, government spending is a direct, proportional component of GDP - every Euro of government spending, is a Euro added to GDP - and it has knock-on effects in the private economy, as that money is respent:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product#Components_of_GDP_by_expenditure

5: If you can point to me advocating raiding pensions, please quote that - otherwise you're trying to straw-man me.

Public spending can increase future taxes, by increasing economic activity and growing GDP - this is why you don't look at government finances, as if they were the finances of a business.
Plenty of past precedent of this as well, e.g. 1930's New Deal being the archetypal example.

martingriff · 15-05-2015 09:27PM

To Elland Back wrote: »

But you will probably stand by your fellow union member if there is any attempt to fire him for incompetence.

Please define.
but Nope

Iwasfrozen · 15-05-2015 09:29PM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

That's a video produced by the Libertarian 'Emergent Order' video company, who have about as much credibility as any other Libertarian think tank (probably less actually, as 'argument by YouTube' is rarely something worth responding to, when someone is asking you to commit 10 minutes of your time to watch an obviously propagandised video).

It's totally biased but still an awesome video and very catchy.

KomradeBishop · 15-05-2015 09:51PM

Fallschirmjager wrote: »

May I ask you a few questions....and I am a libertarian (just for the record), also these question are not trick questions, it's not a gotcha post..

Where does a government get its money from?
How do you propose we get full employment (I'm guessing borrow and create jobs in the public sector as per your previous post)?
What will these people do, roughly, in the public sector?
When you count full employment what are you going to do with the people who can't or dare I say won't work?
Roughly,, how long in decades (I am not trying to be smartarseish) will it take before we pay back the loans to create full employment?
How long do you envision borrowing for (again in decades if necessary)?
How much roughly (round up to the nearest billion euro, again not trying to be smart, this after all, after hours ) should we borrow each year?
I am guessing you also fully support a high minimum wage?
Is there a point in your mind when a government should stop borrowing?
The currency we are borrowing, what is it based on, e.g. Faith like the euro or gold bases or something else?

Thanks for the clarification.

The government gets its money primarily from taxes and public debt - the latter being at the lowest interest rate ever.

Due to the Euro, I don't think we can reach full employment through government spending - but I think the low-interest rate public debt can give us a good boost towards it.
This would be based on creating public jobs and on tax reductions (up to a sustainable rate of 'Interest Rate vs GDP'), to provide a GDP boost.

These employed people would restaff understaffed/underfunded public services, and could work on infrastructural projects - particularly infrastructural projects which improve our economic efficiency, making us more competitive.

Even when countries reach 'Full Employment', that won't mean all of those remaining unemployed are unwilling/unable to work - I think the best method though, of rooting out all of the 'genuine scroungers', would be to (when the country is financially able - could be decades away) setup a Job Guarantee program, where everyone unemployed able to work, can get a job.
Then those left unemployed, are much more easily identified as either scrounging, or otherwise needing to have a very good reason for still being unemployed.

We would aim for full employment before paying back the loans, and would try to minimize 'Public Debt vs GDP', by maximizing GDP growth - governments rarely ever pay off all of their debts, they almost universally roll them over (we should though, bring our 'Public Debt to GDP' ratio down, but in the long run - a short-term increase can actually boost GDP, leading to a bigger decrease long-term).

We should borrow for as long as it is sustainable (via 'Interest Rates vs GDP'), and should be careful to make sure it stays sustainable - and for as long as a government deficit is needed to boost the private sector - so that's likely to be decades (we can still reduce 'Public Debt vs GDP' in this time though, by boosting GDP).

We should borrow as much as is sustainable - determining even a rough figure for what would be sustainable, would probably take the work of a whole team of professional economists.

I support 'a' minimum wage, but I think there are more important issues than whether it should be increased now or not, so I don't really focus on it.

Government should stop borrowing when the private sector has taken up all of the workers the government has temporarily employed (which would indicate a full or near-full private sector recovery), and at that point, we can consider the economy as having fully recovered.

The Euro is a fiat currency, so it isn't 'based' on anything as such. A lot of people view the value of fiat currency, as being based on faith/psychology - I think this is only a small part of its value:
I view Government taxes, as underpinning the demand for a currency - taxes enforce demand for Euro's among the population, so people are going to have to obtain and do business with Euro's (just about every economic transaction, involves a tax that will have to be paid in Euro's), and so the idea that people can 'lose faith' in the currency, and it can suddenly lose value, I think is untrue (except in extreme circumstances, such as hyperinflation).

Note: Even though I advocate government taking advantage of the low interest rates now, I (for other reasons) think that the EU will come apart economically, way before we get anywhere near a recovery.

martingriff · 15-05-2015 09:52PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

It's deserving of condescension because it is absolute rubbish. Where the hell do you think the money comes from to pay for public services?

It comes from citizens working in the private sector. They are generating the wealth and that is where the money comes from. And your solution for this busted state is to borrow more money and take more from private workers to pay public sector wages.

The public sector generates no wealth. It consumes the wealth of the productive side of the economy which is the private sector.

It's total delusion.

Such bullcrap. So i suppose public sector workers pay no taxes either.

I am so sorry my overlord and let me kiss your boats for allowing me to live

martingriff · 15-05-2015 09:55PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Everyone who has to pay for it I would imagine.

You mean like him/her with there increased taxes

16-05-2015 09:38AM

The CPSU propaganda machine lays bare just how out of touch they really are.

She takes home €483 a week as a clerk, and was taking home €583 a week before the cuts. That's with a guaranteed index linked pension, flexitime and job security for life.

She admits if she hadn't that job, she'd be in a bar working for tips. (So much for the 'but muh education and skillz' that we hear are the PS are blessed with)

I wonder would she pocket €483 + pension in a bar in Louth just as easily. I doubt it. She'd want to be working all hours God sends.

They simply cannot appreciate what they do have and constantly have the hands cupped looking for more.

In saying that though, I would accept that there are some people in the PS that are vastly underpaid for what they do. But those majority at the lower end are well-feathered

Dan_Solo · 16-05-2015 10:28AM

salonfire wrote: »

The CPSU propaganda machine lays bare just how out of touch they really are.

She takes home €483 a week as a clerk, and was taking home €583 a week before the cuts. That's with a guaranteed index linked pension, flexitime and job security for life.

She admits if she hadn't that job, she'd be in a bar working for tips. (So much for the 'but muh education and skillz' that we hear are the PS are blessed with)

I wonder would she pocket €483 + pension in a bar in Louth just as easily. I doubt it. She'd want to be working all hours God sends.

Makes you wonder why all the private sector geniuses aren't all over these kinds of jobs doesn't it?

16-05-2015 10:35AM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Makes you wonder why all the private sector geniuses aren't all over these kinds of jobs doesn't it?

What's that supposed to mean? Any campaign on public jobs, particularly at the lower end have always been over-subscribed.

Are you suggesting that everyone else leave the private sector and we all work for the government?

How intriguing. Tell me more how you think such a country could be funded?

VinLieger · 16-05-2015 10:46AM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Makes you wonder why all the private sector geniuses aren't all over these kinds of jobs doesn't it?

Are you aware of how many people apply for PS jobs when they become available? They are the pot at the end of the rainbow

Letree · 16-05-2015 11:35AM

salonfire wrote: »

The CPSU propaganda machine lays bare just how out of touch they really are.

She takes home €483 a week as a clerk, and was taking home €583 a week before the cuts. That's with a guaranteed index linked pension, flexitime and job security for life.

She admits if she hadn't that job, she'd be in a bar working for tips. (So much for the 'but muh education and skillz' that we hear are the PS are blessed with)

I wonder would she pocket €483 + pension in a bar in Louth just as easily. I doubt it. She'd want to be working all hours God sends.

They simply cannot appreciate what they do have and constantly have the hands cupped looking for more.

In saying that though, I would accept that there are some people in the PS that are vastly underpaid for what they do. But those majority at the lower end are well-feathered

I can't see your link. Its not working.

If she was taking home 583 before the cuts she was not at the bottom eg clerical officer. She was a grade or two higher than the bottom rung.

16-05-2015 11:53AM

Letree wrote: »

I can't see your link. Its not working.

If she was taking home 583 before the cuts she was not at the bottom eg clerical officer. She was a grade or two higher than the bottom rung.

It should be working, may be your computer. Search for CPSU Ireland in YouTube and play the stressful life of a clerical officer video

She is a CO, answers phones and deals with the public in the front office for Revenue.

She probably is at the top of the scale. Still though, €583 as a clerk after paying for a pension was great pay by any stretch of the imagination, especially in a rural town. In Dublin, it would be a bit tight I would give that.

A similar role in the private sector would have less net pay and little to no pension if in a SME I would imagine.

blackcard · 16-05-2015 12:45PM

VinLieger wrote: »

Are you aware of how many people apply for PS jobs when they become available? They are the pot at the end of the rainbow

And that is one of the reasons why employees in the Public Sector have better qualifications and are more experienced than their counterparts in the Private Sector. Because so many people apply for a position in the Public Sector, The winning cantidote is likely to be of a higher standard. Having being on Interview Boards for both the Public and Private sectors, there is a clear difference in the quality of candidates at the top end

martingriff · 16-05-2015 05:25PM

VinLieger wrote: »

Are you aware of how many people apply for PS jobs when they become available? They are the pot at the end of the rainbow

There was a thread on boards in relation to the last clerical recruitment and while I have not kept following at the start there was so many who did not go for it as they would not work for that much regardless of if it did increase

Dan_Solo · 16-05-2015 09:23PM

VinLieger wrote: »

Are you aware of how many people apply for PS jobs when they become available? They are the pot at the end of the rainbow

Oh. I thought people were trying to say that PS workers weren't worth what they are paid, but it sounds more like the beat 100s of other applicants and are in fact the absolute cream of the crop.
Whiff of jealousy/begrudgery TBH.

Inspector Coptoor · 16-05-2015 10:04PM

COs start on €21k a year.
€403.84 per week.

Most people in the recent recruitment had a level 8 degree minimum.

This public sector vs private sector nonsense serves no one.

Roger Hassenforder · 16-05-2015 10:11PM

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

COs start on €21k a year.
€403.84 per week.

Most people in the recent recruitment had a level 8 degree minimum.

This public sector vs private sector nonsense serves no one.

get out of here with that crazy rational talk...

Roger Hassenforder · 16-05-2015 10:14PM

Tiger Mcilroy wrote: »

Im honestly trying to understand your point.

The bit in bold ..now you getting it.

"the real world" was introduced couple of pages ago by someone having a dig at public servants for not living in it. I get it all right!

Roger Hassenforder · 16-05-2015 10:28PM

salonfire wrote: »

It should be working, may be your computer. Search for CPSU Ireland in YouTube and play the stressful life of a clerical officer video

She is a CO, answers phones and deals with the public in the front office for Revenue.

She probably is at the top of the scale. Still though, €583 as a clerk after paying for a pension was great pay by any stretch of the imagination, especially in a rural town. In Dublin, it would be a bit tight I would give that.

A similar role in the private sector would have less net pay and little to no pension if in a SME I would imagine.

it wouldnt matter where she lived, that's the pay scale she's on.
Without insulting her, she's probably in the service a while, and well up the scale, incidentally which is here: http://www.impact.ie/your-sector/public-sector/civil-service/civil-service-salary-scales/merged-salary-scales-for-new-entrants/
After 23 years as CO she'd be on 37,341 Net. Max of the scale.
CO is more a grade than job description ( in my place anyway!), what would the private sector job equivalent be?

Roger Hassenforder · 16-05-2015 10:54PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

You will be told that is wrong with no evidence to back it up only veiled remarks to not everyone is on it...

we're still waiting for that MNC...

16-05-2015 10:58PM

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

it wouldnt matter where she lived, that's the pay scale she's on.
Without insulting her, she's probably in the service a while, and well up the scale, incidentally which is here: http://www.impact.ie/your-sector/public-sector/civil-service/civil-service-salary-scales/merged-salary-scales-for-new-entrants/
After 23 years as CO she'd be on 37,341 Net. Max of the scale.
CO is more a grade than job description ( in my place anyway!), what would the private sector job equivalent be?

The private sector job equivalent is a clerk. A clerk is a clerk, answering phones and dealing with the public enquiries.

She already acknowledged that if she did not have the Revenue job, she'd be working in a bar.

She is in a position that offers superior terms and conditions than she could ever have working in a bar. Still though, it is not enough and we have the woe is me rhetoric, driven on by her union and others in the PS.

blackcard · 16-05-2015 11:00PM

salonfire wrote: »

The private sector job equivalent is a clerk. A clerk is a clerk, answering phones and dealing with the public enquiries.

She already acknowledged that if she did not have the Revenue job, she'd be working in a bar.

She is in a position that offers superior terms and conditions than she could ever have working in a bar. Still though, it is not enough and we have the woe is me rhetoric, driven on by her union and others in the PS.

Strangely enough, her union is made up of Private Sector workers

16-05-2015 11:05PM

blackcard wrote: »

Strangely enough, her union is made up of Private Sector workers

These videos are from the CPSU. No private sector workers are in CPSU.

Roger Hassenforder · 16-05-2015 11:10PM

salonfire wrote: »

The private sector job equivalent is a clerk. A clerk is a clerk, answering phones and dealing with the public enquiries.

She already acknowledged that if she did not have the Revenue job, she'd be working in a bar.

She is in a position that offers superior terms and conditions than she could ever have working in a bar. Still though, it is not enough and we have the woe is me rhetoric, driven on by her union and others in the PS.

is your point bar workers and COs should have the same terms and conditions (x hours!!)? Or is it she's overpaid for what she's doing?
Again, a CO is a grade, not necessarily a job description. COs provide different functions other than "answering phones".
Any links to jobs in the private sector as "Clerks" that we may compare?

luckyboy · 17-05-2015 01:22PM

salonfire wrote: »

The private sector job equivalent is a clerk. A clerk is a clerk, answering phones and dealing with the public enquiries.

She already acknowledged that if she did not have the Revenue job, she'd be working in a bar.

She is in a position that offers superior terms and conditions than she could ever have working in a bar. Still though, it is not enough and we have the woe is me rhetoric, driven on by her union and others in the PS.

The wider issue, whether we want to tackle it or not, is that the increment system allows for potential overpay at the lower grades of the PS (compared with private sector equivalents) whilst at the same time underpaying those at higher levels (compared with the upper reaches of the private sector).

It may not be a very populist argument to suggest that a Principal Officer (79-97k scale) is underpaid, but it may well be true ...

Letree · 17-05-2015 02:25PM

luckyboy wrote: »

It may not be a very populist argument to suggest that a Principal Officer (79-97k scale) is underpaid, but it may well be true ...

Yeah if we try and match the private sector which is heavily skewed in favour of bosses. In the US, UK and in Ireland we see the continual decade on decade rise of the top tier being paid multiples of the bottom tier. Just because they can. We don't have to blindly follow that model. In Scandinavian countries it is more common to see the pay differentials between the top and bottom much closer.

There is the issue of a fair days pay for a fair days work. The public service should lead the way in that. We don't need to follow the American model of the top guy paid 500 times what the bottom guy gets paid. You get the picture i'm sure. The trends are there already in western capitalism. However, I think the people making decisions on PS pay already understand that and haven't fallen for the rabid right wing exploitative view.

Public sector pay increase

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