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SSM Referendum - Has Anyone Actually Changed Their Mind? MOD Warning 1st Post

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    #62
    An Ciarraioch
    Registered Users Posts: 5,803 ✭✭✭An Ciarraioch


    BoJack Horseman wrote: »
    That reason is beyond moronic.

    Civil rights can eff-off, cos I don't like FG"

    Indeed - my sole contribution here would be to state that if the poster knows someone who is gay, would he accept them being treated differently to themselves? Of course, if someone has a principled reason for voting No, then I would fully respect them for stating it.


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    #63
    osarusan
    Registered Users Posts: 16,585 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    L1011 wrote: »
    Do you see anyone on the opposition (to the government) suggesting this?

    No, because it's so childish they wouldn't even countenance it

    The opposition can hardly advocate a No vote in fairness. It would be the definition of shortsighted policy suicide.


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    #64
    Minderbinder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,030 ✭✭✭Minderbinder


    SaveOurLyric wrote: »

    The enlightened just marvel at the backwardness of their neighbours and how they cannot think freely. The religious are so blinded they lose all reason and end up extraordinary contortions an illogicality to avoid facing reality. A genuine debate on the issue is not possible when one group is incapable of reason on the topic.

    you mean when one group is incapable of agreeing with you? are you secretly working for the 'no' side as i can't believe anyone is sincerely this intolerant


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    #65
    gk5000
    Registered Users Posts: 851 ✭✭✭gk5000


    Started of as don't know and really tried to understand the issues involved, the conflicting views, and am now a strong NO.

    Cannot understand how:
    a. people state that they can't find ANY reason's to vote NO
    b. people do not realise that marriage is ALSO about children
    and finally
    c. that people do not realise the value of male parenting and parental role models, of female parenting and parental role models, but mostly the importance of the complimentary balance between the two.

    Men are happy to be replaced as parents by women ...etc.... don't have a high opinion of themselves as parents.


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    #66
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,126 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    gk5000 wrote: »
    Started of as don't know and really tried to understand the issues involved, the conflicting views, and am now a strong NO.

    Cannot understand how:
    a. people state that they can find ANY reason's to vote NO
    b. people do not realise that marriage is ALSO about children
    and finally

    c. that people do not realise the value of male parenting and parental role models, of female parenting and parental role models,
    but mostly the importance of the complimentary balance between the two.

    Men are happy to be replaced as parents by women ...etc.... don't have a high opinion of themselves as parents.

    All good reasons - if any were affected in the slightest by the referendum. But they aren't.


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    #67
    WoolyJumper
    Registered Users Posts: 847 ✭✭✭WoolyJumper


    I can understand to a degree what people are saying about the yes side isolating voters, you just have to keep in mind for the yes side this is a vote on our equal rights, our dignity and value in society. It's more than we want this to pass, we need this to pass. It will be devastating if a no vote wins out. We are scared that people will be convinced by the mistruths and muddying of the waters from the no side side. So sometimes we over react. I think anyone is this situation would over react.


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    #68
    Lollipops23
    Registered Users Posts: 5,420 ✭✭✭Lollipops23


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Yeah it is, Odd the yes side is not above name calling though. Is the position that tenuous that name calling is needed ? And people wonder why some are having second thoughts.

    How is voting against equal rights for LGBTQ people NOT bigotry? Seriously? You're flat out saying you're better than they are and they are count less as human beings.


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    #69
    pauliebdub
    Registered Users Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭pauliebdub


    sunshine and showers wrote: »
    But these (unfounded) accusations of bigotry and people voting no to teach the yes side some kind of lesson? No. Fúck you. You're actually an idiot.

    There's been a lot of labelling and name calling throughout the campaign which has in my opinion put a lot of people off voting in this referendum and want it over and done with.

    The net is all bigot this and homophobe that and other abuse. The yes side need to realise that some people have nothing more than a different outlook on life.


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    #70
    The_Valeyard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,452 ✭✭✭✭The_Valeyard


    WoolyJumper wrote: »
    I can understand to a degree what people are saying about the yes side isolating voters, you just have to keep in mind for the yes side this is a vote on our equal rights, our dignity and value in society. It's more than we want this to pass, we need this to pass. It will be devastating if a no vote wins out. We are scared that people will be convinced by the mistruths and muddying of the waters from the no side side. So sometimes we over react. I think anyone is this situation would over react.


    Im a yes voter, but I keep having to tell myself this the whole time, its equality, not the views of 'extremists'

    I will be very honest, the tactics of both sides has seriously pissed me off.
    And I will keep it no secret, that I have questioned the view of my voting yes with the taking down of no posters, painting over no posters, egg throwing, and general berating and condemnation of anyone who disagrees with the Yes side. Personally I feel it shows how sick or unhealthy our democracy is, with ordinary people afraid to voice an opinion if they happy to disagree with mainstream social media.

    I just hope the Yes side, do not score any own goals in the final week.

    Finally, I believe (although I could be wrong), there is a large 'No' vote out there, but just will not come forward and declare it because of fear of a public backlash. This will be closer than people think.


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    #71
    Lollipops23
    Registered Users Posts: 5,420 ✭✭✭Lollipops23


    gk5000 wrote: »
    Started of as don't know and really tried to understand the issues involved, the conflicting views, and am now a strong NO.

    Cannot understand how:
    a. people state that they can't find ANY reason's to vote NO
    b. people do not realise that marriage is ALSO about children
    and finally
    c. that people do not realise the value of male parenting and parental role models, of female parenting and parental role models, but mostly the importance of the complimentary balance between the two.

    Men are happy to be replaced as parents by women ...etc.... don't have a high opinion of themselves as parents.

    Parenting is NOT included in this referendum. The relevant Bill has already been signed in by President Higgins.

    I see the No campaign have succeeded in scaremongering with their lies.


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    #72
    K4t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    Miall108 wrote: »
    Everyone is entitled to their own free opinion and the right to vote in this country.
    Everyone is entitled to their own free opinion, but nobody is entitled to have that opinion free from criticism and ridicule. Freedom of thought and expression goes both ways. Opinions cannot be immune from being challenged by other opinions. Yes, everyone has a right to vote. Have No voters had their voting rights taken away now? Nope, didn't think so.
    Patww79 wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    It does affect you. Equal rights affect us all. It's about the kind of society you and I want to live in as heterosexual men. This is a huge opportunity for to vote for equality and by doing so help out our friends, relatives and future citizens in the lgbt community. A yes vote though above all is a vote for your own equal rights, whether you're gay or straight. A yes vote is ultimately a vote for yourself, but which will directly visibly benefit gay people


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    #73
    pauliebdub
    Registered Users Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭pauliebdub


    Lollipops23 wrote: »
    How is voting against equal rights for LGBTQ people NOT bigotry? Seriously? You're flat out saying you're better than they are and they are count less as human beings.

    It's this attitude that puts people off voting yes.


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    #74
    gravehold
    Closed Accounts Posts: 912 ✭✭✭gravehold


    Went from a yes even though I really dislike the yes campaign as I have gay friends, then a AH mod banned me from posting in the thread even though I broke none of the rules he just disliked my opinions.

    So no not sure I can't not vote as I think it's everyones civic duty to vote so will decide on the day but thinking no and just telling my friends I voted yes


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    #75
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Lollipops23 wrote: »
    How is voting against equal rights for LGBTQ people NOT bigotry? Seriously? You're flat out saying you're better than they are and they are count less as human beings.

    :pac: Please point out where i said that ?


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    #76
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    gk5000 wrote: »
    Started of as don't know and really tried to understand the issues involved, the conflicting views, and am now a strong NO.

    Cannot understand how:
    a. people state that they can't find ANY reason's to vote NO
    b. people do not realise that marriage is ALSO about children
    and finally
    c. that people do not realise the value of male parenting and parental role models, of female parenting and parental role models, but mostly the importance of the complimentary balance between the two.

    Men are happy to be replaced as parents by women ...etc.... don't have a high opinion of themselves as parents.

    Marriage and children are indeed interrelated however in the context of this referendum they aren't and that is because of the Children and Family Relationships Act 2015. This act expressly permits adoptions by lesbian and gay couples. As the adoption authority and the referendum commission have said the passage or failure of this referendum will have no impact on adoption law.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/adoption-process-to-remain-same-regardless-of-vote-authority-chief-1.2208714

    I hope you might consider voting yes.


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    #77
    Polka_Dot
    Registered Users Posts: 551 ✭✭✭Polka_Dot


    When I first heard about the referendum coming up I was a strong yes as I figured it was a no brainer really, equal rights for all. I'm still of that opinion though I have grown very weary of the Yes side.

    Mostly it's just down to being sick of hearing about it tbh. I'm in college so there's been campaining since the beginning of the college year for it - registering people to vote and encouraging a yes vote before the referendum even had a date or the wording was announced. Honestly, the student campaigns have irritated me in many ways, particularly USI trying to have the date changed and then asking colleges not to hold exams on the 22nd.

    My Facebook has been inundated over the past few months with Yes arguments. Most are fine, just encouraging people to vote yes, but I've seen far too many people encouraging others to take down or deface No posters, or claiming to delete any friends they have that might vote No, etc. I do think that Yes is the right way to vote, and the No side is full of shíte, but the aggressive way in which people have been dealing with it just isn't on. The general feeling is that anyone who votes no is automatically of the same ilk as the Iona Institute and other no campaigners. So by supporting yes, I don't really want to be seen as the same as these bullying, aggressive yes supporters, who may be in the minority but are the loudest voices in the campaign. I'm voting yes, but because of those types (and because I'm not too fussed anyway) I wouldn't change my facebook picture to reflect my stance, or make it public in any way. It's nobody's business how anyone else votes, and I think both sides need to see that.

    TL;DR: mind hasn't been changed but can understand why the yes side is alienating people


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    #78
    Lollipops23
    Registered Users Posts: 5,420 ✭✭✭Lollipops23


    pauliebdub wrote: »
    It's this attitude that puts people off voting yes.

    The attitude of believing that they should have all the privileges we have....?


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    #79
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Lollipops23 wrote: »
    The attitude of believing that they should have all the privileges we have....?


    No the aggressive name calling I would go with.


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    #80
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    The_Valeyard wrote: »
    Im a yes voter, but I keep having to tell myself this the whole time, its equality, not the views of 'extremists'

    I will be very honest, the tactics of both sides has seriously pissed me off.
    And I will keep it no secret, that I have questioned the view of my voting yes with the taking down of no posters, painting over no posters, egg throwing, and general berating and condemnation of anyone who disagrees with the Yes side. Personally I feel it shows how sick or unhealthy our democracy is, with ordinary people afraid to voice an opinion if they happy to disagree with mainstream social media.

    I just hope the Yes side, do not score any own goals in the final week.

    Finally, I believe (although I could be wrong), there is a large 'No' vote out there, but just will not come forward and declare it because of fear of a public backlash. This will be closer than people think.

    Please do vote yes. As you have said this about individual gay and lesbian people being held equal before the law, and that includes those with no voices, such as gay children and those not yet born.

    I think it is also important to highlight that abuse is happening on both sides. Yes posters were ripped down in Cavan yesterday, homophobic slurs were painted on posters in Carlow Kilkenny and many yes campaigners have faced terrible abuse. I for instance have been called a paedophile several times.


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    #81
    The_Kew_Tour
    Registered Users Posts: 34,068 ✭✭✭✭The_Kew_Tour


    Will vote Yes, but the Yes campaign sneering and lambasting of certain No voters has been pathetic and childish.

    Its also been the other way around but not as bad.


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    #82
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    Polka_Dot wrote: »
    When I first heard about the referendum coming up I was a strong yes as I figured it was a no brainer really, equal rights for all. I'm still of that opinion though I have grown very weary of the Yes side.

    Mostly it's just down to being sick of hearing about it tbh. I'm in college so there's been campaining since the beginning of the college year for it - registering people to vote and encouraging a yes vote before the referendum even had a date or the wording was announced. Honestly, the student campaigns have irritated me in many ways, particularly USI trying to have the date changed and then asking colleges not to hold exams on the 22nd.

    My Facebook has been inundated over the past few months with Yes arguments. Most are fine, just encouraging people to vote yes, but I've seen far too many people encouraging others to take down or deface No posters, or claiming to delete any friends they have that might vote No, etc. I do think that Yes is the right way to vote, and the No side is full of shíte, but the aggressive way in which people have been dealing with it just isn't on. The general feeling is that anyone who votes no is automatically of the same ilk as the Iona Institute and other no campaigners. So by supporting yes, I don't really want to be seen as the same as these bullying, aggressive yes supporters, who may be in the minority but are the loudest voices in the campaign. I'm voting yes, but because of those types (and because I'm not too fussed anyway) I wouldn't change my facebook picture to reflect my stance, or make it public in any way. It's nobody's business how anyone else votes, and I think both sides need to see that.

    TL;DR: mind hasn't been changed but can understand why the yes side is alienating people

    Please do vote yes. I can understand peoples frustration with the campaign. I would appeal to you though to imagine being a gay person during this, even one who is not campaigning having to listen to the radio, tv everywhere bang on about your life, about whether your a danger to children so and so forth. Please don;t lose patience now and help make thousands of people happy next friday by voting yes.


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    #83
    keeponhurling
    Registered Users Posts: 5,148 ✭✭✭keeponhurling


    pauliebdub wrote: »

    The net is all bigot this and homophobe that and other abuse. The yes side need to realise that some people have nothing more than a different outlook on life.

    Don't forget to add bible-bashing redneck, and some other generic references to the Catholic Church


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    #84
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    The_Valeyard wrote: »
    Finally, I believe (although I could be wrong), there is a large 'No' vote out there, but just will not come forward and declare it because of fear of a public backlash. This will be closer than people think.

    Absolutely. And this is why the outcome is so difficult to predict. Since the yes campaign has managed to make being a no voter something people are expected to feel ashamed of, no-one knows what people really think (question is: how many people are there like a poster earlier in the thread who said they will vote no and tell their friends they voted yes?).


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    #85
    StewartGriffin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,284 ✭✭✭StewartGriffin


    Minderbinder wrote: »
    this whole campaign is absurd if we're honest. the 'yes' side have sabotaged themselves because they want a fight worth winning. walkover victories are never as much fun. to me, it just looks like they're looking for an argument. they don't actually want everyone to agree with them. psychologically it's quite interesting that people can get so carried away with the idea they're an oppressed minority that the only way they can get people to argue with them is, ironically, through their own form of intolerance.

    now, perhaps the referendum will be closer than originally expected? and that will probably make the victory sweeter and in some ways reinforce the notion (in their own minds) that a sizable portion of the country are 'anti-gay'.

    Great point. It's unlike any political debate I have ever seen.

    Much of the social media around it is a psychologists wet dream with a proud sense of victimhood, flamboyantly melodramatic speeches, endless comparisons to Rosa Parks on the bus, heart-wrenching scenarios of how a no-vote would make people go somewhere more tolerant, (to where?).

    Also, a peculiar trend of many straight people, fighting aggressively for the yes vote, eager to point out they are straight in every third post, displaying a subtly condescending attitude to those they are supporting.


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    #86
    Polka_Dot
    Registered Users Posts: 551 ✭✭✭Polka_Dot


    jobbridge4life wrote: »
    Please do vote yes. I can understand peoples frustration with the campaign. I would appeal to you though to imagine being a gay person during this, even one who is not campaigning having to listen to the radio, tv everywhere bang on about your life, about whether your a danger to children so and so forth. Please don;t lose patience now and help make thousands of people happy next friday by voting yes.

    I already said I intend to.


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    #87
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    Polka_Dot wrote: »
    I already said I intend to.

    I know and thank you, I was responding to your expression of frustration and appealing to you to stay the course.


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    #88
    ronivek
    Registered Users Posts: 1,916 ✭✭✭ronivek


    StewartGriffin wrote: »
    Great point. It's unlike any political debate I have ever seen.

    Much of the social media around it is a psychologists wet dream with a proud sense of victimhood, flamboyantly melodramatic speeches, endless comparisons to Rosa Parks on the bus, heart-wrenching scenarios of how a no-vote would make people go somewhere more tolerant, (to where?).

    Also, a peculiar trend of many straight people, fighting aggressively for the yes vote, eager to point out they are straight in every third post, displaying a subtly condescending attitude to those they are supporting.

    As opposed to the openly condescending attitude you clearly hold in relation to civil rights and equality for homosexuals?


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    #89
    Pompey Magnus
    Registered Users Posts: 5,406 ✭✭✭Pompey Magnus


    Lollipops23 wrote: »
    How is voting against equal rights for LGBTQ people NOT bigotry? Seriously? You're flat out saying you're better than they are and they are count less as human beings.

    So by that logic is every person who will vote no in the Presidential referendum also bigoted as they will be denying equal rights to everyone over 21 (which seems to be your definition of bigotry) and therefore are they implicitly saying every person under 35 is a lesser human?

    I'll be voting yes in the SSM referendum, the No side argument has been very weak but my decision will be despite the Yes side campaign and definitely not because of it.


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    #90
    desertcircus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭desertcircus


    If people think the Yes campaign as it's currently operating is aggressive, they're in for a serious shock the day after the referendum. The Yes campaign has been positive and incredibly restrained so far, focused incredibly tightly on talking to people with concerns, reassuring people that children won't be negatively effected, and appealing to the electorate's best nature. There's no comparison whatsoever between the Yes and No sides in this campaign; one side has been lying ceaselessly out of both sides of their mouths, and the other has been gritting its teeth, shaking hands and patiently explaining the truth day after day.

    Do people actually understand what a bullying campaign is? Because this isn't it, not even close. Not on the Yes side, anyway.


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    #91
    K4t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    Polka_Dot wrote: »

    TL;DR: mind hasn't been changed but can understand why the yes side is alienating people
    There are a lot of posts stating unease and discontent regarding the antics and behaviour of the Yes side and how this has made them unsure about voting yes, so I'll just make this point: You are not voting for the yes side with a yes vote. Nor are you voting for the no side with a no vote. You're voting yes for same sex marriage and ONLY same sex marriage. And you're voting no to prevent it. That's it. You are not even necessarily voting for gay people with a yes vote either (Keith Mills and Paddy etc. are evidence of this). And you are not necessarily voting against gay people with a no vote. A yes vote is a vote for everyone, not just gay people, but for yourself. It will allow you to live free in the knowledge that every single person of consenting age in the country can marry the one they love. And of course this will visibly benefit gay couples the most, and the future gay children of Ireland who wish to marry their partner some day. So forget about sides, both yes and no, and vote for the society you want to live in. Yes for same sex marriage. No to prevent it.


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