Why has the West boycotted the parade by those who saved the world from Nazism.

Elmer Blooker · 14-05-2015 09:19PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Do you not read, watch or listen to any news?

I asked when did RAF fighters escort Russian aircraft out of our airspace.
Yes I do read, watch and listen to the non-stop anti-Russia lies, brainwashing and propaganda thats called "news" these days.
Some of us can see through it and think for ourselves.

Fratton Fred · 14-05-2015 10:05PM

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I asked when did RAF fighters escort Russian aircraft out of our airspace.
Yes I do read, watch and listen to the non-stop anti-Russia lies, brainwashing and propaganda thats called "news" these days.
Some of us can see through it and think for ourselves.

So you missed the Russian bombers flying through Irish controlled airspace with no transponder s on then, escorted by two RAF typhoons, or were those eye witness reports just anti Russian propaganda?

Obviously the French, Norwegians and Finnish were in on it as well.

noway12345 · 14-05-2015 10:15PM

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Robindch isn't a delusional fantasist.

So that would be the Russia that invaded and occupied parts of Georgia and Ukraine and the China that invaded and occupied Tibet and is trying to bully Japan off the Senkaku islands and the Philippines off the Spratly islands?

Yes, bully v bully. Take eachother out!

Egginacup · 14-05-2015 10:40PM

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Perhaps you are unaware of the protocol between the two nations to divide up Poland? And to divide eastern europe into spheres of influence where Russia had a free hand to take the baltic states and bessarabia from Romania?

It may not have been called an alliance but that's just terminology and quibbling over semantics just makes you look a bit silly.

If it's silly to call it an alliance then SAY it wasn't an alliance. I'm sure Gandalf has the wherewithal to rescind his fallacious assertion that the USSR aligned themselves with the Third Reich in 1939 without you babysitting him.

gandalf · 14-05-2015 10:43PM

Egginacup wrote: »

If it's silly to call it an alliance then SAY it wasn't an alliance. I'm sure Gandalf has the wherewithal to rescind his fallacious assertion that the USSR aligned themselves with the Third Reich in 1939 without you babysitting him.

They did align themselves with the Nazi's and carved up Poland. If you are unable to see that then you have a very serious problem distinguishing right from wrong.

Knock yourself out with your man lust of all things Putin, but if you post your Soviet Love Propaganda and I see it I will counter it.

RZoran · 14-05-2015 11:44PM

I actually enjoy watching this sort of stuff but this is a show of force, not a celebration parade.

Egginacup · 15-05-2015 12:10AM

gandalf wrote: »

So you agree with the carve up of Poland by Hitler and his new bosom buddy Stalin in 1939.

Here look here are the new buddys who created that Polish sandwich in 1939.

The only person engaging in lies here is you Eggy repeatedly in multiple threads.

No, gandalf, I want something much more simple. I want you to say that the USSR was not allied to Hitler's Germany in 1939 as you have heretofore stated.

Egginacup · 15-05-2015 12:28AM

blatantrereg wrote: »

Ireland is quite well defended - primarily by the UK. For example RAF fighters have escorted a number of Russian aircraft out of our airspace recently.

When did Russian aircraft cross into Irish airspace and when were they escorted out of Irish airspace by British fighter planes?

I am unaware of this event.

In fact, would not British military aircraft, according to your tale, have had to invade Irish airspace in order to "escort" the Russian military out?

Was there any statement from the British after this and was there not an announcement from Ireland's leadership with respect to the violation of Irish sovereign airspace?

Finally, what was the statement from the Russian Ambassador to Ireland when quizzed about this event? He was quizzed, was he not?

gandalf · 15-05-2015 12:32AM

Egginacup wrote: »

No, gandalf, I want something much more simple. I want you to say that the USSR was not allied to Hitler's Germany in 1939 as you have heretofore stated.

Of course they allied with Nazi Germany in the carving up of Poland. Only a complete and utter diehard disciple of denial would say otherwise.

blatantrereg · 15-05-2015 01:05AM

Egginacup wrote: »

When did Russian aircraft cross into Irish airspace and when were they escorted out of Irish airspace by British fighter planes?

I am unaware of this event.

In fact, would not British military aircraft, according to your tale, have had to invade Irish airspace in order to "escort" the Russian military out?

Was there any statement from the British after this and was there not an announcement from Ireland's leadership with respect to the violation of Irish sovereign airspace?

Finally, what was the statement from the Russian Ambassador to Ireland when quizzed about this event? He was quizzed, was he not?

One recent report which also alludes to another similar incident, and the Russian ambassador being talked to about it:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/passenger-planes-dodged-russian-bombers-315623.html

Egginacup · 15-05-2015 01:20AM

Now, we'll try this again.
The excuses why American leaders and dignitaries of NATO members refused to attend the 70th anniversary celebrations of the Soviet destruction of Nazism have been thus:

- Russia has invaded Ukraine
- Russia are threatening to attack every neighbouring country
- Russia have a dreadful internal policy regarding homosexuals.

Invading a country, threatening to foment violence or delivering such upon a country, or displaying and exercising oppression against gays are the proffered reason for the snubbing of this event.

These are the reasons given. There have been one or two other reasons such as "Russians are now acting like the Nazis with whom they "allied" in 1939" .... this was an actual statement, not a drunken roar, but something delivered as fact.

This celebration, this anniversary of remembering the suffering and slaughter of millions and millions of Russians has been trivialised. And the only reason that people on here can use to excuse it is a fictitious hoax that their gang do for a hobby.

Egginacup · 15-05-2015 02:32AM

gandalf wrote: »

They did align themselves with the Nazi's and carved up Poland. If you are unable to see that then you have a very serious problem distinguishing right from wrong.

Knock yourself out with your man lust of all things Putin, but if you post your Soviet Love Propaganda and I see it I will counter it.

Counter at will. The Soviets entered into a non-aggression pact with the Nazis in August 1939. The German NEVER aligned themselves with the USSR nor did the USSR align themselves with the German at this time.

Gandalf, this discussion about the Soviets being allies of the Nazis at the start of WW2, something that you professed, is over. It was your mistake. You stated it and now can't own up.

The USSR and Germany entered a non-aggression pact in 1939.
They did NOT ally themselves. You said they did. They didn't.

Now you can throw all kinds of jibes out like Putinbot-this or Stalinista-that but I'm challenging you to admit that the USSR and Nazi Germany were NEVER allies, as you stated.

Very simple.

dubscottie · 15-05-2015 02:41AM

Egginacup wrote: »

Counter at will. The Soviets entered into a non-aggression pact with the Nazis in August 1939. The German NEVER aligned themselves with the USSR nor did the USSR align themselves with the German at this time.

Gandalf, this discussion about the Soviets being allies of the Nazis at the start of WW2, something that you professed, is over. It was your mistake. You stated it and now can't own up.

The USSR and Germany entered a non-aggression pact in 1939.
They did NOT ally themselves. You said they did. They didn't.

Now you can throw all kinds of jibes out like Putinbot-this or Stalinista-that but I'm challenging you to admit that the USSR and Nazi Germany were NEVER allies, as you stated.

Very simple.

The soviets did agree an alliance with the Nazis... You need to learn more about history before you start spouting pro USSR crap..

And I have proof..How else do you explain the USSR invasion of Poland?? To protect them?? (But thats OK.. Doing it in the Ukraine)

Plenty of books with firsthand accounts of the meetings..

Call it what you will egginacup, but your motherland sided with the Nazis..

Get use to it. They had trade deals.. FFS!!

BlaasForRafa · 15-05-2015 03:29AM

Egginacup wrote: »

If it's silly to call it an alliance then SAY it wasn't an alliance. I'm sure Gandalf has the wherewithal to rescind his fallacious assertion that the USSR aligned themselves with the Third Reich in 1939 without you babysitting him.

I'm certainly not babysitting Gandalf, he's well able to put his own case forward. What I was doing is to put a historical fact to you that you seem to be blithely ignorant of.

Whether your ignorance is intentional or not is something that the readers of this thread will have to decide but you do seem to have a very special way of viewing historical events that only passingly accords with reality. You also seem to have a very special set of blinkers that allows you to see certain events but completely ignore anything negative committed by Russia.

The Third Reich and the USSR colluded to divvying up Poland and the rest of eastern europe, whatever name the two parties decided to call it, the effective result was an alliance of the two parties to further their territorial aims.

Grayson · 15-05-2015 06:26AM

Egginacup wrote: »

I have never denied that there is a deep-rooted animosity in the Polish psyche towards the Soviets but it appears to you and many that these hatreds can be set aside in some circumstances but not in others vis-a-vis the Polish currently in a military and economic alliance with the country that wiped their country off the map twice in less than a century whilst never even contemplating military protection from Soviet Russia in the face of imminent Nazi destruction.

And for your information my knowledge of Eastern European history is quite indepth, certainly demonstrably moreso than the intercert (lower) level that many on here display yet claim to be experts. I've even written papers on Josip Broz Tito, Ante Pavelic and Draza Mihajlovic. But I can't know everything even though the thirst for (accurate) historical information never wanes.

The polish people never had a decision. They weren't living in a democracy in the 30's. However the reasoning was still strong. They said that if we allow soviet troops on our land we'll never get rid of them. Turns out they were very right about that.

And it was a democratic poland, democratic estonia, democratic lativia etc that wanted to join NATO. Because they were scared ****less that the Russians would figure out some way to come back. The soviets were just as brutal as the nazi's in the east. They conquered and removed the right of self determination from hundreds of millions of people.

And the soviets like Stalin are now the flavor of the month in Russia. They are putting up posters of him and whitewashing what he did. However yiou feel about Germany they have purged their nazi past. It's illegal to own, sell or display any nazi memorabilia. The germans own the guilt of what they did. I can't remember the word (because it's in German) but there is a word in german which means "the guilt felt by an entire nation for the actions of that nation".

However the Russians in some freaky nationalist zeal are now celebrating all the horrors perpetrated by the soviets.

Crann na Beatha · 15-05-2015 08:11AM

This post has been deleted.

Elmer Blooker · 15-05-2015 10:13AM

Grayson wrote: »

And it was a democratic poland, democratic estonia, democratic lativia etc that wanted to join NATO. Because they were scared ****less that the Russians would figure out some way to come back. The soviets were just as brutal as the nazi's in the east. They conquered and removed the right of self determination from hundreds of millions of people.

And the soviets like Stalin are now the flavor of the month in Russia. They are putting up posters of him and whitewashing what he did. However yiou feel about Germany they have purged their nazi past. It's illegal to own, sell or display any nazi memorabilia. The germans own the guilt of what they did. I can't remember the word (because it's in German) but there is a word in german which means "the guilt felt by an entire nation for the actions of that nation".

However the Russians in some freaky nationalist zeal are now celebrating all the horrors perpetrated by the soviets.

Are "they" putting up posters? You made a statement so what percentage (roughly) of Russians would you say idolize Stalin (a Georgian) and put up posters?
While Germany may be purging their Nazi past that's not the case in the ... ahem, ahem ... democratic Baltics. You won't see this in the uber liberal Irish Times or anywhere else in our superior and free western media!

the similarities between the marches are far too numerous to ignore, reflecting a dangerous trend, which deserves to be treated seriously by Brussels.

http://www.i24news.tv/en/opinion/61221-150215-four-baltic-marches-one-dangerous-racist-trend

When did Russian aircraft cross into Irish airspace and when were they escorted out of Irish airspace by British fighter planes?
I am unaware of this event.

They were in 'Irish controlled airspace" This covers thousands of square miles in the North Atlantic, in other words International airspace.
Its just the usual lies and misinformation. The news is written in a way to deliberately deceive.

robindch · 15-05-2015 10:37AM

Egginacup wrote: »

robindch wrote:

You might stretch your mind back as far as a month or two, when Putin announced that he was ready to threaten the use of nuclear weapons during his invasion of Crimea.

I am unaware of such an announcement.

Putin made his threat in a "documentary" named "The Path To The Motherland":

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31899680

BBC wrote:

In a previously released clip from the film, he said he ordered the annexation weeks before a referendum was held.

On putting Russia's nuclear weapons into a state of combat readiness, Mr Putin said: "We were ready to do this."

[...] Mr Putin subsequently admitted deploying troops on the peninsula to "stand behind Crimea's self-defence forces".

jmayo · 15-05-2015 11:10AM

Just a little Samba wrote: »

A non-aggression pact is not an alliance. Not even close, it's a "you leave me alone, I leave you alone".

Tell that to the Poles, Lithunians, Latvians, estonians, Finns who suffered this Soviet non agression in 1939-1940-1941.

Just a little Samba wrote: »

The Finns saved themselves from Stalinism AND from British invasion, actually.

Nobody saved the baltic states, they became part of the Soviet Union.

The Finns lost a sizable chunk of their territory.

Reiver wrote: »

The Soviets were never allied with the Nazis. The period of military cooperation was with the Weimar government and the Nazis had a non-aggression pact.

Again tell that to the Poles who had fight both of them at the same time.

Egginacup wrote: »

Are you trying to say that Russia suffered 25 million dead because they couldn't fight? Is that what you are trying to say?

No they suffered a huge chunk of their casulties because their officer corps had been decimated by their paranoid ruler during the preceeding decade and they were often clueless.
Added to that they just threw men/women at the enemy because their ruler did not give two shytes about casulties.

You really do have a hard on for mother russia, are you Russian or just very anti West ?

Grayson · 15-05-2015 11:32AM

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

They were in 'Irish controlled airspace" This covers thousands of square miles in the North Atlantic, in other words International airspace.
Its just the usual lies and misinformation. The news is written in a way to deliberately deceive.

How about the narrow miss at a Danish airport between a russian bomber with it's transponder turned off.

http://www.thelocal.dk/20141213/copenhagen-flight-nearly-collides-with-russian-military-jet

This is the type of crap that is popular in Russia at the moment

http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/vladimir-putin-victory-day-not-my-grandmother

A car-window sticker that has become wildly popular in Russia in the last few weeks puts the same message in simpler language. It features two sets of schematic figures. On the left, a stickman with a Soviet flag in place of a head is anally penetrating a stickman with a Nazi flag for a head. On the right, the top’s head is a Russian flag and the bottom’s head is a U.S. one. The left pictogram is captioned, “1945.” The right says, “2015.”

(btw, you should read he rest of that article. It's quite interesting)

The simple fact is that Russians are being stoked up by propaganda from state owned media. This isn't happening in the west. We have a huge variety of media from loads opf countries. In russia at the moment there's actually pro war thought being put in the media. Just look at the vice news articles/video's to see the **** that is being said on state owned media. There is nothing like that here. There's massive debate about everything.

In Russian however the last independent TV station was kicked out because they wanted to host a debate about Stalingrad. Should Stalin have evacuated and let the city fall or should he have defended it in the way he did (And as a history nut I can tell you that's a massively complicated question). They were shut down because that was unpatriotic.

Grayson · 15-05-2015 11:35AM

btw, if you want to look at a free media, look at the Irish Times. Breda O'Brien constantly pops up there. So however do pro yes voters. In Russia simply saying that being gay is ok is a criminal offence. Discussion of it is a criminal offence. How can you claim that our media is biased when we at least allow discussions. Overthere you are closed down or locked up for discussing certain subjects.

(and I'm hardly a fan of the Irish times. Except for the crossword)

Fratton Fred · 15-05-2015 12:06PM

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

They were in 'Irish controlled airspace" This covers thousands of square miles in the North Atlantic, in other words International airspace.
Its just the usual lies and misinformation. The news is written in a way to deliberately deceive.

They were 40 miles off the Irish coast, crossing international airlanes with no transponder signals, so invisible to commercial traffic.

It was a direct, in your face, act of intimidation.

robindch · 15-05-2015 12:22PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It was a direct, in your face, act of intimidation.

Intimidation or simple trolling - Russia is doing the diplomatic equivalent of walking up to people's doors, ringing the doorbell, then running away.

Yes, they've the resources to do this indefinitely and tie up endless resources of better-behaved countries, but that's the way Putin and his government want to react. He tried to buy respect with, for example, the Sochi games, but he learned the hard way that reliable friends aren't the ones who can be bought.

And now he's reduced to annoying people outside of Ukraine, and murdering people within it. So long as his aggression can be contained within Ukraine, then that's something people can work with. If he chooses not to contain it there - by for example, causing another airline accident through reckless military behaviour like MH17 - then war is a distinct possibility. This might even be something he looks forward to.

c_man · 15-05-2015 01:11PM

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

The Third Reich and the USSR colluded to divvying up Poland and the rest of eastern europe, whatever name the two parties decided to call it, the effective result was an alliance of the two parties to further their territorial aims.

Maybe the Poles were incorrect. The troops who invaded the east of the country while their... non-enemies invaded from the West, who's to say they were Soviet. Maybe they were the ancestors of the little green men who appeared in Ukraine recently?!

Elmer Blooker · 15-05-2015 01:16PM

Grayson wrote: »

How about the narrow miss at a Danish airport between a russian bomber with it's transponder turned off.

http://www.thelocal.dk/20141213/copenhagen-flight-nearly-collides-with-russian-military-jet

The simple fact is that Russians are being stoked up by propaganda from state owned media. This isn't happening in the west. We have a huge variety of media from loads opf countries. In russia at the moment there's actually pro war thought being put in the media. Just look at the vice news articles/video's to see the **** that is being said on state owned media. There is nothing like that here. There's massive debate about everything.

You probably believed the elaborate hoax about the submarine in Swedish territorial waters too.

Give me an example of "massive debate" on the Ukraine conflict in our western media please.
I'd rather not look at vice news thank you very much!
You should read this if you can be bothered. I only discovered this site very recently, it was set by disgusted former Guardian readers.

OffGuardian is the creation of people from different parts of the world committed to the original vision which drew us together on The Guardian‘s CiF pages. We followed with dismay and disappointment the increasingly distorted and tendentious news reporting on Libya, the proxy-war in Syria, and the Ukraine Crisis. Tired of being censored by our beloved, once-upon-a-time left-of-centre newspaper,

http://off-guardian.org/2015/04/27/the-dangerous-myth-of-a-free-press-in-the-west-must-be-scrutinized/

Joshua J · 15-05-2015 02:28PM

Anyone who thinks the we in the west are not inundated with propaganda and it's only those poor dumb Russians needs to give their head a wobble. Seriously.

Reiver · 15-05-2015 02:51PM

Joshua J wrote: »

Anyone who thinks the we in the west are not inundated with propaganda and it's only those poor dumb Russians needs to give their head a wobble. Seriously.

Ah here come on, I get me news from Dublin. I'm not the same as those other boggers.

Egginacup · 15-05-2015 07:43PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

They were 40 miles off the Irish coast, crossing international airlanes with no transponder signals, so invisible to commercial traffic.

It was a direct, in your face, act of intimidation.

I'd really like to have the full facts regarding this episode and I'd like to know what laws were broken. This isn't a trick question. I would like to know the specifics and if Irish sovereignty was illegally threatened or violated was the Russian Ambassador taken to task and by whom? And if not, why not? What was the response?

Thank you for any feedback.

Fratton Fred · 15-05-2015 09:12PM

Egginacup wrote: »

I'd really like to have the full facts regarding this episode and I'd like to know what laws were broken. This isn't a trick question. I would like to know the specifics and if Irish sovereignty was illegally threatened or violated was the Russian Ambassador taken to task and by whom? And if not, why not? What was the response?

Thank you for any feedback.

No laws were broken, but you can be a complete **** without breaking laws.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/passenger-planes-dodged-russian-bombers-315623.html

mulbot · 16-05-2015 05:14AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

They were 40 miles off the Irish coast, crossing international airlanes with no transponder signals, so invisible to commercial traffic.

It was a direct, in your face, act of intimidation.

They would still be visible to radar being used by air traffic controllers would they not? Surely air traffic control would have had an issue if any plane was crossing dangerously across airlanes and a full investigation would have followed by relevant authorities.Has that happened?

Why has the West boycotted the parade by those who saved the world from Nazism.

Comments