Public sector pay increase

14-05-2015 02:33PM

Quin_Dub wrote: »

So.. something that is achieved by 90% of staff is an "unachievable target"?

I've highlighted the key part in your point above..

It should be achieveable , 90% of staff do achieve it , so the 10% that don't are not up to the job..

This is fairly standard practice across multiple companies across multiple industries for many years (it's certainly been the case in my 25 year career thus far)

There are no mass victories in Employment tribunals for dismissed employees , so clearly it's not against the law as you seem to believe.

This is not the Public sector where almost everybody gets a "Well done" grade in their annual review - What was the figure? Only 5% were "below expectations" (when a review actually took place , which wasn't very often to start with) - That's not performance management , I don't even know what that is..

This is the real world where there are ALWAYS over-achievers and where there are ALWAYS under-achievers.

The Bell-curve isn't always perfect , but taken across a large enough sample there will always be 10% - 20% of the work-=force that just aren't cutting it..

Some are recoverable , some aren't.. Those that can't show the ability to buck up and be more productive are moved on and out...

This simply doesn't happen in Ireland. There are no firms that routinely dismiss 10% of their workforce and rehire numbers to fill those losses every year. The onus is on you to show some proof of this being an actual occurrence rather than for me to argue with you about your imagination.

Roger Hassenforder · 14-05-2015 04:04PM

Quin_Dub wrote: »

So.. something that is achieved by 90% of staff is an "unachievable target"?

I've highlighted the key part in your point above..

It should be achieveable , 90% of staff do achieve it , so the 10% that don't are not up to the job..

This is fairly standard practice across multiple companies across multiple industries for many years (it's certainly been the case in my 25 year career thus far)

There are no mass victories in Employment tribunals for dismissed employees , so clearly it's not against the law as you seem to believe.

This is not the Public sector where almost everybody gets a "Well done" grade in their annual review - What was the figure? Only 5% were "below expectations" (when a review actually took place , which wasn't very often to start with) - That's not performance management , I don't even know what that is..

This is the real world where there are ALWAYS over-achievers and where there are ALWAYS under-achievers.

The Bell-curve isn't always perfect , but taken across a large enough sample there will always be 10% - 20% of the work-=force that just aren't cutting it..

Some are recoverable , some aren't.. Those that can't show the ability to buck up and be more productive are moved on and out...

I'm calling bullshyte on this.
Forced distribution termination has been shown to be counter productive, stifles collaboration, fosters a survival cultur,and had been abandoned by all but a very small minority of companies.

By the way, public service PMDS 3 means performing satisfactory. Ie you're doing your job as expected.

Baggy Trousers · 14-05-2015 04:16PM

Pay increases for public sector workers now is just a ploy to buy the next general election. Howlin wouldn't negotiate his way out of a paper bag.
We cannot afford it with so much debt, debt servicing and ongoing budget deficits (€8 billion still?).

Ireland is one of three EU countries who were identified with macro-economic balances “which require decisive policy action and specific monitoring,” and remains in the EU’s excessive deficit procedure.

And this nonsense of getting more reform for payrises is nonsense. There has been very little reform since 2011.

Tiger Mcilroy · 14-05-2015 04:23PM

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

This simply doesn't happen in Ireland. There are no firms that routinely dismiss 10% of their workforce and rehire numbers to fill those losses every year. The onus is on you to show some proof of this being an actual occurrence rather than for me to argue with you about your imagination.

Your wrong i have seen it first hand, i would imagine most people in the "real world" have aswell.

Tiger Mcilroy · 14-05-2015 04:26PM

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

Pay increases for public sector workers now is just a ploy to buy the next general election. Howlin wouldn't negotiate his way out of a paper bag.
We cannot afford it with so much debt, debt servicing and ongoing budget deficits (€8 billion still?).

And this nonsense of getting more reform for payrises is nonsense. There has been very little reform since 2011.

Yep and yet we have posters bleating about doing the same work with less staff...if its possible to do the same with less then could somebody explain why there was so many staff peforming this unquantifiable trojan work in the first place.

the whole system is a joke and geared toward maintaining the status quo.

darkpagandeath · 14-05-2015 04:38PM

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Its just simple financial prudence. You look to the future.
A few of my friends in construction borrowed mortgage to the wire, brand new cars , holidays, out every weekend... no savings ...and now cribbing/bitching about public sector workers who didn't reap any huge profits/bonuses but stayed on the same increment with (at best modest pay rises)...

But now the chickens have come home and the modest pay rises are being painted as 'lavish' by those who took the punt on private sector and won during the boom!

So where did the money go?

Its ironic that the private sector is accusing the public sector of bitching... but who's doing the bitching at peoples wages in this thread?

I didn't see many private sector workers jumping ship into the public sector before the boom.. the wells run dry now, so lets take some one elses water... literally.

So much fail in one line, How was that soft landing ? Sure there were no problems according to the government at the time. Odd we had to hear that the IMF/Troika were in Ireland to facilitate a bail out had to come from foreign media. Public service had no idea things were going south so how could they look to the future and plan...

darkpagandeath · 14-05-2015 04:42PM

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

This simply doesn't happen in Ireland. There are no firms that routinely dismiss 10% of their workforce and rehire numbers to fill those losses every year. The onus is on you to show some proof of this being an actual occurrence rather than for me to argue with you about your imagination.

MNC rotate about that much a year, Keeps the wage costs down. You can't meet the targets there is the door. That's what happens in the Real world.

Roger Hassenforder · 14-05-2015 04:44PM

Jawgap wrote: »

eh, that's pay - I was talking about income

I think we're actually agreeing with each other! Someone wanted an independent body to assess public service pay. Someone has, OECD/IMF report irish public servants aren't overpaid on average except in a small number of cases, and underpaid in others.
Factor in pension levy, take home pay is probably less.

You don't hear Mark Fielding et al about that fact though.

Roger Hassenforder · 14-05-2015 04:48PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

MNC rotate about that much a year, Keeps the wage costs down. You can't meet the targets there is the door. That's what happens in the Real world.

MNC?

darkpagandeath · 14-05-2015 04:53PM

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

MNC?

multinational companies

Roger Hassenforder · 14-05-2015 05:12PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

multinational companies

So which MNCs still use the system?

Quin_Dub · 14-05-2015 05:13PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

MNC rotate about that much a year, Keeps the wage costs down. You can't meet the targets there is the door. That's what happens in the Real world.

Exactly.....

The real world , where some of us live and clearly some of us don't....

darkpagandeath · 14-05-2015 05:16PM

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

So which MNCs still use the system?

Most if not all I would say, I have worked in a well known one, They are also moving into the free internships as well. Pretty much if you are not meeting your metrics set by you manages for a while you get the boot.

Quin_Dub · 14-05-2015 05:18PM

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

So which MNCs still use the system?

Pretty much all of them in some form or other...

Whilst some are not necessarily explicit in setting a specific target , all will have an expectation that the lowest performing percentiles will be placed on strenuous performance management programs and if they don't respond to that they will be moved on.

You certainly do not keep your job with consecutive bottom ranked performance reviews in Major Multi-nationals..

uki · 14-05-2015 05:25PM

I m self employed. Only recently starting to take a tiny wage after living from old savings and my wife s income. Nobody talks about the self employed that got really screwed during the recession. Would not get a cent of state if my business goes.

People in the public sector don't know their luck. Save jobs and 50 % higher pay than private sector people. Also why should irish public sector be paid more public servants in other countries. It is know that the gap between public/ private sector is much smaller in other countries. Further more - the country is still borrowing and not able to support itself as economy still weak.

Roger Hassenforder · 14-05-2015 05:29PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Most if not all I would say, I have worked in a well known one, They are also moving into the free internships as well. Pretty much if you are not meeting your metrics set by you manages for a while you get the boot.

name two that have it...
go on, you know you want to say Microsoft but...

Quin_Dub · 14-05-2015 05:33PM

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

name two that have it...
go on, you know you want to say Microsoft but...

Whilst Microsoft scrapped their forced distribution stack ranking about 2 years ago.. I can absolutely categorically guarantee you that they still place low performers on Performance management plans and if they don't improve, they are gone..

Same as Dell, Intel , HP and any others you care to mention...

14-05-2015 05:36PM

uki wrote: »

People in the public sector don't know their luck.

Luck? Is making a choice to work in the public sector luck?

uki wrote: »

Save jobs and 50 % higher pay than private sector people. .

50% higher pay? There is far more potential for higher pay in the private sector than the public sector.

Comparing similarly qualified people in like for like positions the private sector worker will be paid better and have better benefits.

uki · 14-05-2015 06:02PM

Nothing learned from the past. Lets wreck the country again.

14-05-2015 06:12PM

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Whilst Microsoft scrapped their forced distribution stack ranking about 2 years ago.. <anecdotal evidence>.

So you have not one example in Ireland of a firm doing this 10% sacking every year that you claimed?

Roger Hassenforder · 14-05-2015 06:18PM

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Whilst Microsoft scrapped their forced distribution stack ranking about 2 years ago.. I can absolutely categorically guarantee you that they still place low performers on Performance management plans and if they don't improve, they are gone..

Same as Dell, Intel , HP and any others you care to mention...

most companies have such a system, even the public service; bottom performance %iles are put on improvement plans, and if they dont improve by some metric are "demised"

Thats very different from what is being claimed. So again, name two MNC that routinely dismiss the bottom 10% of their workforce...

Meanwhile in the real world...

Quin_Dub · 14-05-2015 06:20PM

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

So you have not one example in Ireland of a firm doing this 10% sacking every year that you claimed?

Tell me - What exactly are you looking for?

Printed copies of the policy documents??

Sworn affidavits from HR staff??

you've had multiple people come on here and tell you that it happens exactly as I have described in multiple companies..

Please , tell me , exactly what is it you need?

14-05-2015 06:25PM

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Tell me - What exactly are you looking for?

Printed copies of the policy documents??

Sworn affidavits from HR staff??

you've had multiple people come on here and tell you that it happens exactly as I have described in multiple companies..

Please , tell me , exactly what is it you need?

The name of one firm who you accuse of currently performing this practise in Ireland.
So that I may attempt to verify the veracity of your statement.

Roger Hassenforder · 14-05-2015 06:26PM

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Tell me - What exactly are you looking for?

Printed copies of the policy documents??

Sworn affidavits from HR staff??

you've had multiple people come on here and tell you that it happens exactly as I have described in multiple companies..

Please , tell me , exactly what is it you need?

its easy: if most MNC routinely sack the bottom 10%, they should be easy to name. I'm only looking for two...one...
All we have is typical IBEC pedaled bullshyte, that wilts at the first bit of scrutiny.

When challenged, you shifted , and claimed the bottom 10% are put on improvement plans, and if they dont improve, then they are out. that is standard in the public service as well.

So again, name one MNC that sacks the bottom 10% of its workforce every year....

14-05-2015 06:33PM

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Tell me - What exactly are you looking for?

Printed copies of the policy documents??

Sworn affidavits from HR staff??

you've had multiple people come on here and tell you that it happens exactly as I have described in multiple companies..

Please , tell me , exactly what is it you need?

What I really want is to have a fair and honest discussion about Public service pay and conditions.
What I dont want is mistruths and lies supported by nothing more than annonymous internet posters anecdotal evidence.

So if you want to have an adult honest discussion, then fair enough. If you want to make unsupportable claims to back your position that public service workers are the root of all evil, then I am justifiably going to question the veracity of any of those claims.

uki · 14-05-2015 06:53PM

I m self employed. Had many employess. Unfortunately had to let them all go and fighting for myself now. Thats still reality in the private sector. (small business).

Unfortunately the times are still bad and there is no scope for pay increases in public sector.
The public sector did not fulfil their savings targets either. So why should they get pay rises?

If targets in private sector are not met - companies shed jobs or reduce pay. They do not increase pay. Nobody should expect from the less well off to pay increases for the better off in public sector. If there are any increases I can only sympathise with the lowest paid public service employees.

14-05-2015 06:54PM

uki wrote: »

Nothing learned from the past. Lets wreck the country again.

The public service had nothing whatsoever to do with wrecking the country so dont know what you are getting at.

darkpagandeath · 14-05-2015 06:56PM

Yara Old Backyard wrote: »

The public service had nothing whatsoever to do with wrecking the country so dont know what you are getting at.

What's was the pay and pensions back in the boom ? The mass wastage in budgets who's responsible then for that ?

uki · 14-05-2015 06:57PM

Talking about benchmarking. Bertie Ahern gave everything that the PS unions were asking for. It is known that it was big mistake.

crusier · 14-05-2015 07:04PM

Private sector bankers and developers ruined this country not public sector workers, private sector workers laughed at the wages of public sector were on back then, now that the false economy of carpenters and plumbers becoming developers is gone they want to drag everyone else down with them and keep them down. The banks debt we now pay was mainly money spent in the private sector and squandered by greedy private sector workers who wouldn't run a brothel!

Public sector pay increase

Comments