Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

marienbad · 13-05-2015 11:40AM

MaxWig wrote: »

You say they are supposed to be a religion, and not a management company.

And while I agree that they should have no say in state issues, you can't really blame them for protecting their investments

Well then if they are just a management company let us treat them as one . No longer tax exempt charitable status , no longer exempt from anti discrimination laws .

But seriously it is not really their investments , the taxpayers build the hospitals and schools , pay for all salaries, equipment, running costs and just hand over the 'patronage' free gratis and for nothing .

In the meantime a kid has to pass the school next door and a young woman dies needlessly in a hospital bed

katydid · 13-05-2015 05:18PM

Deleted User wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9foi342LXQE

Can I ask this question back to you instead?
What elements of the state do you feel the church has negligible influence on?

I was waiting for someone to reference Monty Python...well done :-)

Well, to answer your question it would have to be a very long list, and rather pointless really, since my question about education and health surely means that I don't believe there is influence anywhere else...

Father Ted Crilly · 13-05-2015 10:23PM

Gintonious wrote: »

Please show us.

I believe that those who believe in "Chance" are stupid. To avoid having myself heckled with a post typed completely in bold letters, I'm going to prove my point.
There is no such thing as "Chance". The outcome of flipping a coin is not based on a force called "Chance". Many factors contribute to the outcome. These include the side that is facing up when it is flipped, the force, the angle the coin is thrown at, everything.
I'm going to look at it from another perspective now. Everything that has happened was always going to happen. I was destined to make this post. Everything that has happened was destined to happen because it did happen. If a magical creature appeared here before the universe was created, it could tell the future. From the big bang, to dinosaurs, to the fake moon landing, to this post.
I'm not saying that everything was programmed to happen. When you think about it, the events that have happened in history could have been different. But everything was always going to happen a certain way.

Please excuse me for not being able to communicate my supernatural mind language to you, as it is infinitely more complex than any human language and any possible human language.

Turtwig · 14-05-2015 01:43AM

Mod:

Fr Ted Crilly has been banned from this forum for a month. Please do not reply to his posts.
(Those infractions were just resting in his account.)

Thanking you,
Turt

14-05-2015 08:25AM

katydid wrote: »

I was waiting for someone to reference Monty Python...well done :-)

Well, to answer your question it would have to be a very long list, and rather pointless really, since my question about education and health surely means that I don't believe there is influence anywhere else...

It's a really straightforward way to bridge the gap between what marienbad is saying and what you are saying.

For some, any undue influence is too much undue influence. For others, it's a 'meh' situation for much of what others might take issue with.

I believe it would be a worthwhile endeavour for you to attempt to list some important elements of society that the church has no influence in. Perhaps then another grouping of 'some', and a final grouping of 'too much' (you've already mentioned health and education). Obviously quite a bit of it would be utterly subjective.

There's a continuum situation here I believe, and it might be worth at the very least acknowledging that.

ShowMeTheCash · 14-05-2015 09:42AM

Father Ted Crilly wrote: »

I believe that those who believe in "Chance" are stupid. To avoid having myself heckled with a post typed completely in bold letters, I'm going to prove my point.
There is no such thing as "Chance". The outcome of flipping a coin is not based on a force called "Chance". Many factors contribute to the outcome. These include the side that is facing up when it is flipped, the force, the angle the coin is thrown at, everything.
I'm going to look at it from another perspective now. Everything that has happened was always going to happen. I was destined to make this post. Everything that has happened was destined to happen because it did happen. If a magical creature appeared here before the universe was created, it could tell the future. From the big bang, to dinosaurs, to the fake moon landing, to this post.
I'm not saying that everything was programmed to happen. When you think about it, the events that have happened in history could have been different. But everything was always going to happen a certain way.

Please excuse me for not being able to communicate my supernatural mind language to you, as it is infinitely more complex than any human language and any possible human language.

I don't find your liner thinking that complex.
With regards your explanation around chance, I get what you are saying albeit and uneducated and simplistic example.

The word chance is used in flipping a coin not because the eventual outcome can somehow change, but the ability to predict the outcome is difficult, you cannot know the pressure used by the flippie, the angle in which force is applied right down to the air molecules that are twisting and turning as the coin moves.

The idea that everything will happen as it was always going to happen is only true because we cannot see what is going to happen a bit like recording the news, once recorded you can rewind it all you want it will not change.

Well that at least is one theory as in the Uni-verse theory!
You then have the Multi-verse theory! The Multi-verse theory will state that at the point of any atom being in one state or another the reality line splits into two distinct lines. Thus making every possible outcome to anything a new and distinct universe. Making the out come of the coin flip both heads and tails all outcomes are possible.

katydid · 14-05-2015 01:39PM

Deleted User wrote: »

It's a really straightforward way to bridge the gap between what marienbad is saying and what you are saying.

For some, any undue influence is too much undue influence. For others, it's a 'meh' situation for much of what others might take issue with.

I believe it would be a worthwhile endeavour for you to attempt to list some important elements of society that the church has no influence in. Perhaps then another grouping of 'some', and a final grouping of 'too much' (you've already mentioned health and education). Obviously quite a bit of it would be utterly subjective.

There's a continuum situation here I believe, and it might be worth at the very least acknowledging that.

I can't add to what I've already said. They have too much influence in education and health. I personally don't know any other area they have influence in. I have never come across it elsewhere.

indioblack · 16-05-2015 03:55PM

How do believers envisage the Christian god?
How would they describe their experience of interaction with god?
Would they, perhaps, experience an emotion, a feeling, a desire?
Perhaps a feeling of well being, serenity.
Of being at peace, secure.

katydid · 16-05-2015 05:20PM

indioblack wrote: »

How do believers envisage the Christian god?
How would they describe their experience of interaction with god?
Would they, perhaps, experience an emotion, a feeling, a desire?
Perhaps a feeling of well being, serenity.
Of being at peace, secure.

I imagine it varies for everyone. For me, it's a feeling that it's just right - there's a higher power out there, and I find that reassuring.

marienbad · 17-05-2015 02:01AM

katydid wrote: »

I imagine it varies for everyone. For me, it's a feeling that it's just right - there's a higher power out there, and I find that reassuring.

Well lets hope he/she does the right thing this Friday

indioblack · 17-05-2015 08:31AM

katydid wrote: »

I imagine it varies for everyone. For me, it's a feeling that it's just right - there's a higher power out there, and I find that reassuring.

Thanks, Katy.
"...it's just right." Simple and to the point.
A poster a few weeks ago advised "letting go" - which I interpreted as acceptance.
Do you think that acceptance, with all that it implies, is part of it too?

katydid · 17-05-2015 05:39PM

indioblack wrote: »

Thanks, Katy.
"...it's just right." Simple and to the point.
A poster a few weeks ago advised "letting go" - which I interpreted as acceptance.
Do you think that acceptance, with all that it implies, is part of it too?

Letting go of what? Cynicism, disbelief, the need to prove everything?

I can understand and respect all of those - I just wish those that feel them would understand or at least respect, those of us who feel differently.

indioblack · 17-05-2015 05:59PM

katydid wrote: »

Letting go of what? Cynicism, disbelief, the need to prove everything?

I can understand and respect all of those - I just wish those that feel them would understand or at least respect, those of us who feel differently.

Yes, probably all three.
I doubt it's too difficult to understand belief or disbelief.
They're both part of the human condition.
And if there wasn't respect for those with different views in this thread there wouldn't be so many questions asked!
Motivation may be part of belief and disbelief.
Why either position would be chosen - and for what gain.

katydid · 17-05-2015 10:05PM

indioblack wrote: »

Yes, probably all three.
I doubt it's too difficult to understand belief or disbelief.
They're both part of the human condition.
And if there wasn't respect for those with different views in this thread there wouldn't be so many questions asked!
Motivation may be part of belief and disbelief.
Why either position would be chosen - and for what gain.

Some people ask questions. Some people just mock and ridicule.

marienbad · 17-05-2015 11:36PM

katydid wrote: »

Some people ask questions. Some people just mock and ridicule.

Some people ask questions ,some mock and ridicule
Others burn you at the stake or wear the hat of the fool

Over to you katy

marienbad · 18-05-2015 03:00PM

katydid wrote: »

It MEANS that apart from Education and Health (which I have acknowledged still have too much religious influence) where else in this state do the religious have undue influence?

I've asked three times now. You seem to be doing your best to avoid answering.

Are you following the discussion in the Lolek thread about the influence of Opus Dei in Irish life ?

katydid · 18-05-2015 08:25PM

marienbad wrote: »

Some people ask questions ,some mock and ridicule
Others burn you at the stake or wear the hat of the fool

Over to you katy

?

katydid · 18-05-2015 08:25PM

marienbad wrote: »

Are you following the discussion in the Lolek thread about the influence of Opus Dei in Irish life ?

Nope

marienbad · 18-05-2015 09:48PM

katydid wrote: »

Nope

Makes interesting if you want an indication of the hidden influence of the RCC.

katydid · 18-05-2015 09:53PM

marienbad wrote: »

Makes interesting if you want an indication of the hidden influence of the RCC.

Imagined hidden influence

marienbad · 18-05-2015 09:55PM

katydid wrote: »

Imagined hidden influence

Oh to be so young and naïve .

katydid · 18-05-2015 09:56PM

marienbad wrote: »

Oh to be so young and naïve .

I don't qualify under either category.

marienbad · 18-05-2015 09:58PM

katydid wrote: »

I don't qualify under either category.

Oh to be so mature and still so innocent

katydid · 18-05-2015 10:00PM

marienbad wrote: »

Oh to be so mature and still so innocent

...EITHER category...

Turtwig · 19-05-2015 01:43AM

marienbad wrote: »

Oh to be so young and naïve .

katydid wrote: »

I don't qualify under either category.

marienbad wrote: »

Oh to be so mature and still so innocent

Mod:

Errr is this going somewhere?

Perhaps you both ought to take a wee hiatus from the thread. Maybe not, but it looks like your discussion, or whatever, is rather, ahem, odd.

marienbad · 19-05-2015 01:47AM

Turtwig wrote: »

Mod:

Errr is this going somewhere? Perhaps you both ought to take a wee hiatus from the thread. Maybe not, but it looks like your discussion, or whatever, is rather, ahem, odd.

indeed , just having a bit of fun, apologies

BMMachine · 19-05-2015 04:43PM

oh dear.

when the yes vote passes that will prove to be another step in destroying the foundations of antiquated traditions such as Christianity.

as I have said, it is the tide. You can't fight the forces of nature and our nature is to learn, explore and understand. Theres no christian, muslim, hindu god(s), there never were and as much as you like believing there are it is simply that, something you like

tommy2bad · 19-05-2015 06:53PM

BMMachine wrote: »

oh dear.

when the yes vote passes that will prove to be another step in destroying the foundations of antiquated traditions such as Christianity.

as I have said, it is the tide. You can't fight the forces of nature and our nature is to learn, explore and understand. Theres no christian, muslim, hindu god(s), there never were and as much as you like believing there are it is simply that, something you like

Another step in destroying the foundations of Christianity? I'm not sure you understand what Christianity is founded on but I can assure you it isn't ssm.

BMMachine · 19-05-2015 06:57PM

a foundation of Christianity is inequality. a Yes vote is helping destroy that

katydid · 19-05-2015 07:00PM

tommy2bad wrote: »

Another step in destroying the foundations of Christianity? I'm not sure you understand what Christianity is founded on but I can assure you it isn't ssm.

Well, it's founded on love. And love is what marriage is about. And people of the same sex can love each other. So...I reckon it's bang on the Christian message

Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

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