Same Sex Marriage Referendum Mega Thread - MOD WARNING IN FIRST POST

Kiwi in IE · 13-05-2015 11:01PM

efb wrote: »

That's his faith- he is devout. If he was a la carte I wouldn't entertain it, but they are his beliefs and I respect that

I tried to have a chat with a devout relative about it myself today. I have been here before and it's going nowhere, the person is voting no because it's 'against God's word' and the subject only arose again because they expressed displeasure at the sight of my Yes Equality badge.

I went through all the rational arguments for equal marriage again and the 'what if (close child relative) is gay, would you not want them to have the same rights?'. I also said that even if it is the 'word of God', isn't that between gay people and god? You're not getting gay married so surely you don't need to worry about that. There was clearly nothing I could say that was going to break anything down, so I gave up before my irritation showed beyond bringing up shellfish and mixed fabrics. At the end of the day, what would be the point in arguing about what something that doesn't exist, did or did not say, when the person you are arguing with is 100% certain that it does exist and said it?

It did strike me that at least they were giving an honest reason and not spewing a load of bollocks about irrelevant issues and red herrings.

RobertKK · 13-05-2015 11:02PM

efb wrote: »

One egg was thrown by a young lad on a bicycle - a horrible thing to happen the little girl, but it can't be attributed to the yes side.

Maybe a yes voter, but that is why I said most people whether yes or no are decent people.

The article could have been written better.
It goes from 'an egg' to 'missiles, including eggs.

I don't believe people active on Yes people condone this.

StewartGriffin · 13-05-2015 11:05PM

VinLieger wrote: »

Hah whos the bully now? I'm not allowed decide how and where i spend my money?

Also your reasoning is broken they are entirely different, one is choosing to condemn an entire section of society to inequality and second class citezenry due to how a small minority are behaving, the other is using freely available information to decide whether or not i would enjoy spending time in a place that may contain a majority of bigots and homophobes. For the very same reason i choose not to go to russia when going on holiday

You see you automatically feel that I am oppressing you. I am questioning your reasoning. You react defensively, as if I have launched some kind of attack. Where is the bullying? Who said you are not free to decide?

I'm saying you are planning to damage a minority whom you claim to support in order to punish a majority you abhor.

Take your tin hat off.

smash · 13-05-2015 11:05PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Maybe a yes voter, but that is why I said most people whether yes or no are decent people.

The article couldhave been written better.
It goes from 'an egg' to 'missiles, including eggs.

I don't believe people active on Yes people condone this.

Wait until Iona get their hands on this. I'd say the headline would be:

"Attempted murder by Yes campaigners who hunted down a girl with an egg allergy. Luckily HER MOTHER was there to support her through it."

frostyjacks · 13-05-2015 11:06PM

efb wrote: »

Garda statement :

We can confirm that Gardai in Navan are investigating an alleged assault on a female, aged approximately 10 years, outside Navan Shopping Centre,” said a spokesman.

“It is alleged that a male cycling a bicycle threw an egg at a group of people at approximately 4.30pm.

“The male is described as wearing a blue jacket and cycled from Kennedy Plaza in the direction of Preston Place.”

I'm not weaseling out of anything. It was a horrible act.

One person threw an egg that hit the young girl, that's what the garda statement refers to. There was other lads throwing more missiles.

I wonder if you would be so blasé about it if it was an attack on yes campaigners.

AtomicHorror · 13-05-2015 11:06PM

frostyjacks wrote: »

You can't weasle your way out of this.

"...at least one youth started throwing missiles, including eggs."

If the yes camp are going to label people on the no side as bigots and homophobes, this sort of thuggery is only to be expected. I hope you're all proud of yourselves.

I see. So when some small set of no campaigners compare homosexuals to pedophiles, and we respond by calling that position (and that small set of people) homophobic, it is in fact we who are responsible for any aggression that emerges from that exchange.

We should have kept quiet. For a quiet life, right?

NIMAN · 13-05-2015 11:06PM

Is this the 1st and last time that Sinn Fein will ever agree with a Government stance/position on something?

We are even saying 'Yes' up here in the NW, and sure we say 'No' to everything!

RobertKK · 13-05-2015 11:07PM

Sofiztikated wrote: »

No, but using your opinions to deny someone the same rights you enjoy, simply because you believe in something isn't exactly good, now is it?

For example:

I don't believe a black person should marry a white person. It's not that I don't think they are equal, I do, but I believe they shouldn't have the same rights as me.

When I vote in anything, I vote for what I believe, it is not voting for what others believe.
It is not about voting with the specific issue of denying people, that would be simply hate.
In your example, it is being done because you see skin colour as the issue. I don't care if a person is gay or straight.

AtomicHorror · 13-05-2015 11:08PM

frostyjacks wrote: »

One person threw an egg that hit the young girl, that's what the garda statement refers to. There was other lads throwing more missiles.

I wonder if you would be so blasé about it if it was an attack on yes campaigners.

Calling something horrible is not blasé, but we're a bit thin on facts right now. Particularly the identities and affiliations of the youths involved. They don't do it in my name.

efb · 13-05-2015 11:09PM

frostyjacks wrote: »

One person threw an egg that hit the young girl, that's what the garda statement refers to. There was other lads throwing more missiles.

I wonder if you would be so blasé about it if it was an attack on yes campaigners.

If there were others throwing missils it would be referred to by the Garda. I haven't seen anywhere it was more that one person. Or do you know more than the Garda?

aloyisious · 13-05-2015 11:10PM

frostyjacks wrote: »

You can't weasle your way out of this.

"...at least one youth started throwing missiles, including eggs."

If the yes camp are going to label people on the no side as bigots and homophobes, this sort of thuggery is only to be expected. I hope you're all proud of yourselves.

The act of egging anyone is wrong, period.

Re your statement on labelling people, I know that people on the Yes side don't like being labelled as thugs. The implication in it that the Yes side are upping the ante from verbal attacks on No people to physical attacks is stupid.

efb · 13-05-2015 11:10PM

frostyjacks wrote: »

One person threw an egg that hit the young girl, that's what the garda statement refers to. There was other lads throwing more missiles.

I wonder if you would be so blasé about it if it was an attack on yes campaigners.

Blase? I condemned the act, no more than that I can do.

efb · 13-05-2015 11:12PM

I'm weaseling and blase? Anything else you want to acuse me of??

RobertKK · 13-05-2015 11:13PM

smash wrote: »

Wait until Iona get their hands on this. I'd say the headline would be:

"Attempted murder by Yes campaigners who hunted down a girl with an egg allergy. Luckily HER MOTHER was there to support her through it."

https://twitter.com/DavQuinn/status/598562153700990976
Also
https://twitter.com/DavQuinn/status/598569341802684417

Disagree with 2nd tweet as I don't see why they have to condemn something they didn't do. I have seen condemnation by Yes campaigners for the record, but that is because decent people don't want to be associated with that type of behaviour.

SaveOurLyric · 13-05-2015 11:14PM

Sofiztikated wrote: »

For example:

I don't believe a black person should marry a white person. It's not that I don't think they are equal, I do, but I believe they shouldn't have the same rights as me.

Hey ! But you cant say that. No religion holds that position. So its racist.

No problem if you state the equivalent about gay people though because there is a religion agreeing with you. If a religion sanctions any belief, no matter how barmy, well then its OK. You can state it all you like. Get equal air time in the media to promote you view, put up any posters you like, etc.

StewartGriffin · 13-05-2015 11:14PM

;

efb wrote: »

I'm weaseling and blase? Anything else you want to acuse me of??

You have egg on your hands, efb.;)

road_high · 13-05-2015 11:15PM

Hopefully the Gardai have more to be doing than following up on this schoolyard nonsence. It's an egg for Christ sake, not like she has her head kicked in. A non story and another clutch at straws for sympathy by the no brigade.

efb · 13-05-2015 11:16PM

StewartGriffin wrote: »

;

You have egg on your hands, efb.;)

Sticky mess

VinLieger · 13-05-2015 11:17PM

StewartGriffin wrote: »

You see you automatically feel that I am oppressing you. I am questioning your reasoning. You react defensively, as if I have launched some kind of attack. Where is the bullying? Who said you are not free to decide?

I'm saying you are planning to damage a minority whom you claim to support in order to punish a majority you abhor.

Take your tin hat off.

It's nothing to do with damage or punishment, i simply would not like to spend my money in a place where the majority of people support inequality, you disagree with this kind of logic? If so consider that similar logic existed on a global level during South Africa's apartheid, do you disagree with it in that case as well?

gandalf · 13-05-2015 11:17PM

Sofiztikated wrote: »

I respect his right to hold his belief, but when his belief impacts on others, then all bets go out the window.

TBH I agree with you to a degree but at least I would call that a honest reason.

All the other reasons I see spouted by the no side are either blatant falsehoods or are in no way related to what we are being asked to vote upon on the 22nd of May (unless harvesting eggs from women is part of the reduction of age for the President :P).

Personally if we do get a big yes vote then finally we will be well on the way to separating church from state in this country which would be one of my lifelong wishes for the Ireland that my son is growing up in.

K4t · 13-05-2015 11:18PM

RobertKK wrote: »

The problem in this world is intolerance and it goes in every direction.
One shouldn't care if a person is gay or straight.
One shouldn't take offense that someone has a different belief to what you have.

I believe marriage is a man/woman thing, but I have absolutely no problem with anyone who believes different or campaigns for SSM if they believe it. Life shouldn't be about hating people, we have what we believe, most of us can't help it, it is something deep down and hard to change.

Treating people with respect as in treating them as you would like to be treated is how I try to live my life. Someone believing something different, doesn't make them wrong. We should accept differences, it is not like anyone is perfect.
People who believe in same sex marriage are not wrong, people who don't support it are not wrong once it is not borne out of hate or dislike of gay people.
Tolerance of differences is what we need. Someone having a different opinion to what one believes doesn't make them bad.

Nope, sorry, but that is mostly apologetic bullsh*t. Tolerance of intolerant beliefs is not tolerance. A person, a human being, is not defined by their beliefs, whether religious or otherwise. Your argument is exactly the problem that we face with religion, and most recently with extreme forms of Islam, whereby those who dare to criticise Islam the faith are charged as Islamaphobes and haters of Muslims, which is not obviously not the case.

We cannot as a society keep making excuses for people who not only hold dangerous and backward beliefs, but who also wish to enforce those very beliefs on the state (for example through a No vote in this referendum), by associating the person directly with those beliefs, and thus them then claiming some sort of persecution when said beliefs are questioned and called out for what they are. As with the example of Islam; To hate Islam is Not to hate Muslims. Or anyone in fact.

AtomicHorror · 13-05-2015 11:19PM

road_high wrote: »

Hopefully the Gardai have more to be doing than following up on this schoolyard nonsence. It's an egg for Christ sake, not like she has her head kicked in. A non story and another clutch at straws for sympathy by the no brigade.

Ah no, it's a bit ****e to be egging a little kid like that. There's no call for it and the jerk that did it deserves no sympathy.

Yeah, some folks will use it, but let them. The No's are not subtle, and people are smart enough to see their opportunism.

RobertKK · 13-05-2015 11:20PM

efb is a decent person, and a person I like on boards.
Give him a break, he doesn't condone anything that happened.

smash · 13-05-2015 11:21PM

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Ah no, it's a bit ****e to be egging a little kid like that. There's no call for it and the jerk that did it deserves no sympathy.

I don't disagree. And this is no excuse for the egging but it's also a bit shíte to be dragging your kid to a No campaign rally and getting her to walk around with a placard to promote inequality.

SaveOurLyric · 13-05-2015 11:23PM

efb wrote: »

That's his faith- he is devout. If he was a la carte I wouldn't entertain it, but they are his beliefs and I respect that

But his beliefs are patent nonsense. Why respect them ? Fine if they had no consequences for anyone but himself - then no problem to let him hold whatever belief he wishes. But when nonsense impinges on the lives of others, its time not to respect them and call them out for the bu*****t that they are.

StewartGriffin · 13-05-2015 11:23PM

VinLieger wrote: »

It's nothing to do with damage or punishment, i simply would not like to spend my money in a place where the majority of people support inequality, you disagree with this kind of logic? If so consider that similar logic existed on a global level during South Africa's apartheid, do you disagree with it in that case as well?

South Africa, boycott was ok, because the money wasn't going to trickle down to the oppressed people anyway. Iraq, definitely not, lots of kids died because the West proudly denied them medicines, that showed Saddam! Donegal, no, because it hurts the minority as much as the majority.

frostyjacks · 13-05-2015 11:28PM

smash wrote: »

I don't disagree. And this is no excuse for the egging but it's also a bit shíte to be dragging your kid to a No campaign rally and getting her to walk around with a placard to promote inequality.

Such sympathy. Well it's not like anaphylactic shocks are fatal or anything.

RobertKK · 13-05-2015 11:29PM

K4t wrote: »

Nope, sorry, but that is mostly apologetic bullsh*t. Tolerance of intolerant beliefs is not tolerance. A person, a human being, is not defined by their beliefs, whether religious or otherwise. Your argument is exactly the problem that we face with religion, and most recently with extreme forms of Islam, whereby those who dare to criticise Islam the faith are charged as Islamaphobes and haters of Muslims, which is not obviously not the case.

We cannot as a society keep making excuses for people who not only hold dangerous and backward beliefs, but who also wish to enforce those very beliefs on the state (for example through a No vote in this referendum), by associating the person directly with those beliefs, and thus them then claiming some sort of persecution when said beliefs are questioned and called out for what they are. As with the example of Islam; To hate Islam is Not to hate Muslims. Or anyone in fact.

How many muslims are terrorists, should we judge them all by the worst?

Who are you to judge others? You want people to think like you do, to beleive what you believe, or else they are judged as being dangerous and backward.
This kind of thought process is what has led to great horrors in the past, as people who believe this have gotten into power and beleived they were the ones with the right opinions and beliefs and they went about removing these 'dangerous' people...

K4t · 13-05-2015 11:30PM

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

But his beliefs are patent nonsense. Why respect them ? Fine if they had no consequences for anyone but himself - then no problem to let him hold whatever belief he wishes. But when nonsense impinges on the lives of others, its time not to respect them and call them out for the bu*****t that they are.

This.

And to efb: Respect your friend as a person, but DO NOT respect those beliefs; by doing so you are only perpetuating such beliefs and their acceptability. Of course he has a right to hold such beliefs, but you should absolutely exert your right to label them bull**** and backward. That would be showing true respect to your friend.

AtomicHorror · 13-05-2015 11:30PM

smash wrote: »

I don't disagree. And this is no excuse for the egging but it's also a bit shíte to be dragging your kid to a No campaign rally and getting her to walk around with a placard to promote inequality.

If it's no excuse then why even mention it?

Same Sex Marriage Referendum Mega Thread - MOD WARNING IN FIRST POST

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