Public sector pay increase

Jawgap · 09-05-2015 05:20PM

bjork wrote: »

It doesn't matter if they are thick. A child going from a E to a D is learning. A E student staying at the entire year at E is not.

A child knowing more at the end of a lesson than they did at the start is learning.

The only way it reflects badly on the teacher is if they are not providing the right learning opportunities for the children >>Which is what they are trained to do

or if their behavior management is poor

Otherwise it's the child's responsibility

Not necessarily - education and exams here prize rote learning. A kid may know more at the end of a lesson, but not have the first clue about the significance of Egan they know and how it relates to other aspects of the curriculum.

bjork · 09-05-2015 05:24PM

Jawgap wrote: »

Well it shouldn't be about grades but it is. You only have to look at the pressure put on kids to get points and not 'waste' points. As long as that kind of thinking is central to our education system, teaching and school performance will be measured by grades, points and students progressing to third level.

And that's all well and good if teachers have no role in the students getting grades points and progressing to third level.

But seen as they do, why isn't their contribution measured?

bjork · 09-05-2015 05:26PM

Jawgap wrote: »

Not necessarily - education and exams here prize rote learning. A kid may know more at the end of a lesson, but not have the first clue about the significance of Egan they know and how it relates to other aspects of the curriculum.

Last I heard it was the only teachers objecting to changing the exams

A good teacher would highlight cross curricular links

Jawgap · 09-05-2015 05:27PM

bjork wrote: »

And that's all well and good if teachers have no role in the students getting grades points and progressing to third level.

But seen as they do, why isn't their contribution measured?

Because again, who is the better teacher the one who gets a few gifted students top marks or the one who stops an at risk student failing and quitting school and full time education at an early age?

darkpagandeath · 09-05-2015 05:28PM

bjork wrote: »

Last I heard it was the only teachers objecting to changing the exams

A good teacher would highlight cross curricular links

Careful now, Next you are saying teachers don't want to be mostly responsible for the students ability to grasp the material and be tested on it.

bjork · 09-05-2015 05:28PM

Jawgap wrote: »

Because again, who is the better teacher the one who gets a few gifted students top marks or the one who stops an at risk student failing and quitting school and full time education at an early age?

You're missing the point. It has nothing to do with the students being gifted or otherwise.

Jawgap · 09-05-2015 05:29PM

bjork wrote: »

Last I heard it was the only teachers objecting to changing the exams

A good teacher would highlight cross curricular links

Again, rote learning, spoon fed by the teacher.

I'd say a good teacher would imbue the student with the critical thinking skills that would allow them to make cross curricular links on their own. But that teacher would suffer because time spent on that would not be time spent on the curriculum.

darkpagandeath · 09-05-2015 05:29PM

Jawgap wrote: »

Because again, who is the better teacher the one who gets a few gifted students top marks or the one who stops an at risk student failing and quitting school and full time education at an early age?

This is not the 1930s where would they get a job with no education ? Who even leave school now at 16 ?

Jawgap · 09-05-2015 05:30PM

bjork wrote: »

You're missing the point. It has nothing to do with the students being gifted or otherwise.

In the real world it has - how would incentivise a teacher to work with struggling kids rather than look for an excuse to dump them or pass them on to someone else?

darkpagandeath · 09-05-2015 05:31PM

Jawgap wrote: »

Again, rote learning, spoon fed by the teacher.

I'd say a good teacher would imbue the student with the critical thinking skills that would allow them to make cross curricular links on their own. But that teacher would suffer because time spent on that would not be time spent on the curriculum.

I was amazed when I Came to Ireland, That the teachers basically teach you how to pass the JC and LC. It's not about understanding the material it's about how you remember what questions are lightly to come up and have the correct answers for that.

Jawgap · 09-05-2015 05:34PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

This is not the 1930s where would they get a job with no education ? Who even leave school now at 16 ?

Not many, but it's not unheard of - Traveller and immigrant communities have lower rates of children finishing out full time education than other groups.

bjork · 09-05-2015 05:34PM

Jawgap wrote: »

In the real world it has - how would incentivise a teacher to work with struggling kids rather than look for an excuse to dump them or pass them on to someone else?

A gifted student will achieve in spite of the teacher

Are you denying a child even moving from an F to an E is learning?

They are not cut out to be a teacher if at the first sign of work they look to dump their students elsewhere. The profession is probably better without them in it

Jawgap · 09-05-2015 05:38PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I was amazed when I Came to Ireland, That the teachers basically teach you how to pass the JC and LC. It's not about understanding the material it's about how you remember what questions are lightly to come up and have the correct answers for that.

Not all teachers are like that. I went to a Christian Brothers school, and one of the older brothers was very much a classicist and taught us in that mould. At the time I thought it was the greatest waste of time but looking back I wished he taught us more of the classic liberal arts.

He also made us learn Latin - again I thought it was a compete waste of time, until I went on to study law

Jawgap · 09-05-2015 05:43PM

bjork wrote: »

A gifted student will achieve in spite of the teacher

Of course he/she will and if you're a teacher undergoing performance assessment they're the students you'll seek out, especially if a portion of your salary depends on it. Everybody else, you'll try and shunt on to some other poor schmuck.

bjork wrote: »

Are you denying a child even moving from an F to an E is learning?

Farm from it. I'm saying that in second level it represents a type of learning that is effectively useless in the real world.

bjork wrote: »

They are not cut out to be a teacher if at the first sign of work they look to dump their students elsewhere. The profession is probably better without them in it

That's human nature. The old expression of 'what gets measured is what gets done' very much applies if you tell someone their salary and/or job depends on a set of metrics. You can be damn sure they are going to maximise the score on those metrics.

bjork · 09-05-2015 05:47PM

Jawgap wrote: »

Of course he/she will and if you're a teacher undergoing performance assessment they're the students you'll seek out, especially if a portion of your salary depends on it. Everybody else, you'll try and shunt on to some other poor schmuck.

Why would you seek them out? The assessment isn't how many A students do you have?

Jawgap wrote: »

Farm from it. I'm saying that in second level it represents a type of learning that is effectively useless in the real world.

Is this a curriculum issue? I'm not sure what else you mean.

Jawgap wrote: »

That's human nature. The old expression of 'what gets measured is what gets done' very much applies if you tell someone their salary and/or job depends on a set of metrics. You can be damn sure they are going to maximise the score on those metrics.

So they'll work better if they are measured?>>Seems about right

Jawgap · 09-05-2015 05:53PM

bjork wrote: »

Why would you seek them out? The assessment isn't how many A students do you have?

Is this a curriculum issue? I'm not sure what else you mean.

So they'll work better if they are measured?>>Seems about right

I'm saying if an exam score is based on your ability to produce a standard solution then grades that reflect that ability are indicative of your recall ability, not your critical thinking, rhetorical or logical skills.

People being measured worked 'better' when assessed according the metrics being used. Whether this is actually 'better' will always be open to debate and conjecture.

An extreme example to be sure, but according to all the metrics applied by the US Army during the Viet Nam War they were winning.......right up until they lost.

Vizzy · 09-05-2015 05:55PM

skittles8710 wrote: »

Please give an example of a Bank Exec remaining their position from the boom to date.. They were quietly moved on (albeit with nice packages ) due to their noted failures.

Richie Boucher ??? (promoted in fact)

bjork · 09-05-2015 06:00PM

Jawgap wrote: »

a)I'm saying if an exam score is based on your ability to produce a standard solution then grades that reflect that ability are indicative of your recall ability, not your critical thinking, rhetorical or logical skills.

b)People being measured worked 'better' when assessed according the metrics being used. Whether this is actually 'better' will always be open to debate and conjecture.

c)An extreme example to be sure, but according to all the metrics applied by the US Army during the Viet Nam War they were winning.......right up until they lost.

a)Yes, the focus is too heavy on exam scores. Teachers refuse to change this, as we have seen. Still teachers have to perform.

b)Parameters can be set to be measured against hence keep them on track to ensure work is "better"
What makes a good teacher
What makes a great teacher

c)Who looses? If the students are learning is that not the point of school? If this is occurring and evident is everyone not winning? If it is not happening and examination of why and action taken.

(Are you the guy who said the lads would be good ones to have in the foxhole with you for back up? :pac:)

Jawgap · 09-05-2015 06:02PM

bjork wrote: »

Too heavy focused on exam scores. Teachers refuse to change this, as we have seen.

Parameters can be set to be measured against hence keep them on track to ensure work is "better"
What makes a good teacher
What makes a great teacher

Who looses? If the students are learning is that not the point of school? If this is occurring and evident is everyone not winning? If it is not happening and examination of why and action taken.

(Are you the guy who said the lads would be good ones to have in the foxhole with you for back up? :pac:)

I'm sure what any of that means

bjork · 09-05-2015 06:05PM

Jawgap wrote: »

I'm sure what any of that means

I edited it a bit to make it clearer

Jawgap · 09-05-2015 06:09PM

Yes, the system is too heavily focused on exam performance, and yes the teachers are blocking progress, but here's a radical idea, why don't we elect the politicians with the cojones to take on the teachers' unions - they're only doing it because they can get away with it.

What parameters did you have in mind?

The students lose - it took me about 2 years of third level education outside Ireland to purge myself of it's taint.

bjork · 09-05-2015 06:15PM

Jawgap wrote: »

Yes, the system is too heavily focused on exam performance, and yes the teachers are blocking progress, but here's a radical idea, why don't we elect the politicians with the cojones to take on the teachers' unions - they're only doing it because they can get away with it.

What parameters did you have in mind?

The students lose - it took me about 2 years of third level education outside Ireland to purge myself of it's taint.

We have to wait until an election and even then it's doubtful they'll get the person with the balls.

The only way the teachers union will downfall is when it implodes on itself. It has already isolated younger and newer entrants while failing to address any real issues.

You tell me what makes a good teacher, I'll tell you the parameters

So they're already losing. What else is too lose by trying a different approach?

The curriculum etc is nothing to do with how the individual performs. That's the content, not their performance and is a separate issue.

omega man · 09-05-2015 06:47PM

Dozen Wicked Words wrote: »

Yep most nurses wouldn't have a clue how to fly a plane or how to put up with smug sounding condescending pricks of pilots either. Not you of course, I'm sure you're not a smug prick.

Sounds like you were inferring that if I'm being honest....

What has nurses flying planes got to do with anything? Now I'm confused.

My example was meant as a similar scenario of a working relationship with a similar line of authority which occurs in my industry. How you got to your above conclusion is baffling.

myshirt · 10-05-2015 09:08PM

Would they ever stop calling it 'Pay Restoration'. This really is infuriating.

If anything good came out of this recession and challenged economic period it was the reduction in the wages of SIPTU members. Why in God's name have they now the paw out again for something they never, ever deserved? Have we not learnt anything? I truly get the sense these people are insatiable and absolutely do not give a flying f*ck. It's disgusting.

Letree · 10-05-2015 09:50PM

myshirt wrote: »

Would they ever stop calling it 'Pay Restoration'. This really is infuriating.

If anything good came out of this recession and challenged economic period it was the reduction in the wages of SIPTU members. Why in God's name have they now the paw out again for something they never, ever deserved? Have we not learnt anything? I truly get the sense these people are insatiable and absolutely do not give a flying f*ck. It's disgusting.

What do they not give a flying f*ck about?

They took significant cuts and took on extra work and longer hours. They haven't had a rise in 7 years. They look at private sector workers getting payrises and they see their bills and cost of living rise year on year. Why wouldn't they seek a payrise. They aren't even being greedy they are willing to accept 2% for godsake. Hardly a ransom.

Do you expect them to never look for a payrise again?

bjork · 10-05-2015 09:51PM

Letree wrote: »

What do they not give a flying f*ck about?

They took significant cuts and took on extra work and longer hours. They haven't had a rise in 7 years. They look at private sector workers getting payrises and they see their bills and cost of living rise year on year. Why wouldn't they seek a payrise. They aren't even being greedy they are willing to accept 2% for godsake. Hardly a ransom.

Do you expect them to never look for a payrise again?

Well there are concerns some of these ones don't give a flying fluck

Grim reading
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/hse-chief-says-clearout-of-uncompassionate-staff-needed-from-maternity-units-31210383.html

SaveOurLyric · 10-05-2015 10:24PM

Letree wrote: »

What do they not give a flying f*ck about?

They took significant cuts and took on extra work and longer hours. They haven't had a rise in 7 years. They look at private sector workers getting payrises and they see their bills and cost of living rise year on year. Why wouldn't they seek a payrise.

Because they were overpaid in the first place. Still some years to go before a pay rise would be justified.

blackcard · 12-05-2015 08:10PM

bjork wrote: »

Well there are concerns some of these ones don't give a flying fluck

Grim reading
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/hse-chief-says-clearout-of-uncompassionate-staff-needed-from-maternity-units-31210383.html

Equally you could say people in the private sector don't care just because some private nursing homes are not well run

daithi7 · 13-05-2015 01:19AM

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Because they were overpaid in the first place. Still some years to go before a pay rise would be justified.

Absolutely. We have the most overpaid public service& civil service in the world relative to our resources. After the bust, we continued to over pay our public servants by an obnoxious margin. That ongoing overpayment for public services has put more than 4-5 times the cost of bailing out the banks on the national debt. And, we are still borrowing hugely to run this country. Yet, before we have even nearly balanced the books, back come the greedy pubic sector unions to seek to burden the society more so that they can further over pay themselves relative to their private sector peers and practically every other peer set of pubic servants in the OECD. It's disgusting and immoral at this stage.

This public sector pay increase is being sought while private sector pensions are still being raided to pay for their existing pay levels and increments. Can someone kindly explain to me why private sector workers have to pay for over inflated public sector pensions through taxes before they can ever contribute to their own pension!?

I sincerely hope Labour get absolutely rifled for this blatant exhibition of election politics. They & the national scourge that are pubic sector unions deserve it, God knows they deserve it& so will the Irish electorate hopefully......

Jawgap · 13-05-2015 07:13AM

bjork wrote: »

We have to wait until an election and even then it's doubtful they'll get the person with the balls.

The only way the teachers union will downfall is when it implodes on itself. It has already isolated younger and newer entrants while failing to address any real issues.

You tell me what makes a good teacher, I'll tell you the parameters

So they're already losing. What else is too lose by trying a different approach?

The curriculum etc is nothing to do with how the individual performs. That's the content, not their performance and is a separate issue.

Who is 'they'? We're the people who vote them in - if we vote in shysters, numpties and incompetents then that's our own fault.

Public sector pay increase

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