Public sector pay increase

omega man · 09-05-2015 01:17PM

Dozen Wicked Words wrote: »

What performance indicators would you use to judge the quality or otherwise of a nurse?

You could start with the basics of attendance, punctuality and their overall ability to provide an acceptable level of service to their customers.

Where I work in the private sector a number of technical, safety related roles are easily assessed with regard to performance. Knowledge and technical abilities should be a given. It's the rest that can be the difference between an average nurse and a high performing nurse.

skittles8710 · 09-05-2015 01:58PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Tell that to Irish bank execs and developers!

Please give an example of a Bank Exec remaining their position from the boom to date.. They were quietly moved on (albeit with nice packages ) due to their noted failures.

Dozen Wicked Words · 09-05-2015 02:07PM

omega man wrote: »

You could start with the basics of attendance, punctuality and their overall ability to provide an acceptable level of service to their customers.

Where I work in the private sector a number of technical, safety related roles are easily assessed with regard to performance. Knowledge and technical abilities should be a given. It's the rest that can be the difference between an average nurse and a high performing nurse.

I agree with your basics absolutely but empathy, compassion, communication skills, caring etc, are all very hard to quantify and you could be all of the things you've listed and none that I suggest and a dreadful nurse, or vice versa.

omega man · 09-05-2015 02:31PM

Dozen Wicked Words wrote: »

I agree with your basics absolutely but empathy, compassion, communication skills, caring etc, are all very hard to quantify and you could be all of the things you've listed and none that I suggest and a dreadful nurse, or vice versa.

I guess so unless hospitals introduced some type of patient feedback surveys. I know patients aren't exactly high street customers but they are customers all the same.

In the private sector I would expect my front line staff to represent their organisation/employer and provide a high quality service to the customer. This could apply to anyone from a customer service agent to an airline pilot. With that in mind I think you'd find certain individual nurses performance with regard to the items you mentioned (empathy, compassion etc) could easily be assessed over time.

Jawgap · 09-05-2015 02:38PM

omega man wrote: »

I guess so unless hospitals introduced some type of patient feedback surveys. I know patients aren't exactly high street customers but they are customers all the same.

In the private sector I would expect my front line staff to represent their organisation/employer and provide a high quality service to the customer. This could apply to anyone from a customer service agent to an airline pilot. With that in mind I think you'd find certain individual nurses performance with regard to the items you mentioned (empathy, compassion etc) could easily be assessed over time.

Seriously?

Go in to your local ED tonight after pub closing time..........

omega man · 09-05-2015 02:46PM

Jawgap wrote: »

Seriously?

Go in to your local ED tonight after pub closing time..........

What's your suggestion then? I just tried to give some insight into how I think it could be done......

09-05-2015 02:52PM

omega man wrote: »

What's your suggestion then? I just tried to give some insight into how I think it could be done......

It can't be done is the simple answer, certainly not in a fair manner nor in a way that assesses the important things when it comes to health care (or teaching for that matter).

Jawgap · 09-05-2015 02:54PM

omega man wrote: »

What's your suggestion then? I just tried to give some insight into how I think it could be done......

The metrics of a 'good' nurse, Garda or teacher cannot be much specified beyond the superficial. Plus there seems to be confusion between measures that indicate someone is a good employee and measures that indicate someone is a good nurse..... for example, would providing a 'good service' include whistleblowing?

How, for example, would you compare a hospice or oncology nurse to an ED one or a theatre one? And if you could how would you rate their expertise.

What is an expert nurse? The one who has good technical skills or the one who is excellent at spotting small problems and preventing them from becoming major ones.

Certainly their should be frequent registration / re-registration, mandatory participation in peer review exercises etc

omega man · 09-05-2015 03:00PM

Jawgap wrote: »

The metrics of a 'good' nurse, Garda or teacher cannot be much specified beyond the superficial. Plus there seems to be confusion between measures that indicate someone is a good employee and measures that indicate someone is a good nurse..... for example, would providing a 'good service' include whistleblowing?

How, for example, would you compare a hospice or oncology nurse to an ED one or a theatre one? And if you could how would you rate their expertise.

What is an expert nurse? The one who has good technical skills or the one who is excellent at spotting small problems and preventing them from becoming major ones.

Certainly their should be frequent registration / re-registration, mandatory participation in peer review exercises etc

But yet in my industry a pilot or an engineer can be performance assessed. What's the big difference here?

Jawgap · 09-05-2015 03:04PM

omega man wrote: »

But yet in my industry a pilot or an engineer can be performance assessed. What's the big difference here?

The big difference is that nursing, policing and teaching are not aviating.

I've asked this before......but who is the better nurse, the one who catches an NHCD making a mistake or the one who helps resuscitate a patient after the doctor has nearly killed him?

omega man · 09-05-2015 03:41PM

Jawgap wrote: »

The big difference is that nursing, policing and teaching are not aviating.

I've asked this before......but who is the better nurse, the one who catches an NHCD making a mistake or the one who helps resuscitate a patient after the doctor has nearly killed him?

Why is nursing any different to certain aviation roles? Safety critical functions in a high pressure environment. A co pilot captain relationship could easily apply to the nurse doctor example you provided above.

Teaching roles are different but I could again compare to pilot instructors whom again are easily assessed performance wise.

Basically I'm not seeing why some PS roles can't be performance reviewed.

darkpagandeath · 09-05-2015 03:49PM

Dozen Wicked Words wrote: »

What performance indicators would you use to judge the quality or otherwise of a nurse?

It's amazing as soon as job is in the public sector all work becomes intangible and unquantifiable. Amazing that is.

Jawgap · 09-05-2015 03:50PM

omega man wrote: »

Why is nursing any different to certain aviation roles? Safety critical functions in a high pressure environment. A co pilot captain relationship could easily apply to the nurse doctor example you provided above.

Teaching roles are different but I could again compare to pilot instructors whom again are easily assessed performance wise.

Basically I'm not seeing why some PS roles can't be performance reviewed.

For a start - it couldn't and the fact you think it could probably demonstrates something of lack of understanding of the difference between a nurse and a doctor - I'd imagine any nurse reading this would be somewhat aggrieved that they would be perceived as 'co-pilots' to the doctor's PIC!

Certain roles can be performance reviewed, but only up to a point - again as an example, who is the better the teacher, the one whose students get As or the teacher who turns the failing student into a solid C student?

....and if you want to think in aviation terms, who are better - fixed or rotary wing pilots? a pilot with hours of instrument time or one with none? the one who can land in marginal conditions or the one who can calm a crippingly anxious passenger?

darkpagandeath · 09-05-2015 03:58PM

Jawgap wrote: »

For a start - it couldn't and the fact you think it could probably demonstrates something of lack of understanding of the difference between a nurse and a doctor - I'd imagine any nurse reading this would be somewhat aggrieved that they would be perceived as 'co-pilots' to the doctor's PIC!

Certain roles can be performance reviewed, but only up to a point - again as an example, who is the better the teacher, the one whose students get As or the teacher who turns the failing student into a solid C student?

....and if you want to think in aviation terms, who are better - fixed or rotary wing pilots? a pilot with hours of instrument time or one with none? the one who can land in marginal conditions or the one who can calm a crippingly anxious passenger?

That's the problem, People are thinking in that way. It's not about who is better it's about are you meeting a certain level of criteria. Performance related pay does not only mean how much better you are at the job than the next person. It's are you meeting the requirements as well.

omega man · 09-05-2015 03:59PM

Jawgap wrote: »

For a start - it couldn't and the fact you think it could probably demonstrates something of lack of understanding of the difference between a nurse and a doctor - I'd imagine any nurse reading this would be somewhat aggrieved that they would be perceived as 'co-pilots' to the doctor's PIC!

Certain roles can be performance reviewed, but only up to a point - again as an example, who is the better the teacher, the one whose students get As or the teacher who turns the failing student into a solid C student?

....and if you want to think in aviation terms, who are better - fixed or rotary wing pilots? a pilot with hours of instrument time or one with none? the one who can land in marginal conditions or the one who can calm a crippingly anxious passenger?

I wasn't even comparing them to co pilots! It was the example you provided so I used the co pilot captain relationship to demonstrate the importance of being able to question a captains decision. It's what co pilots are trained to do. I think comparing nurses to co pilots would be very kind to nurses if I'm honest!

bjork · 09-05-2015 04:06PM

Jawgap wrote: »

..........
Certain roles can be performance reviewed, but only up to a point - again as an example, who is the better the teacher, the one whose students get As or the teacher who turns the failing student into a solid C student?.............

The ones who's students show individual progress.

Nothing to do with whether they get As, Bs or C's

mickydoomsux · 09-05-2015 04:17PM

bjork wrote: »

The ones who's students show individual progress.

Nothing to do with whether they get As, Bs or C's

What if the students are unteachable thickos ?

Should we still cut the teachers pay?

darkpagandeath · 09-05-2015 04:19PM

mickydoomsux wrote: »

What if the students are unteachable thickos ?

Should we still cut the teachers pay?

How did they get the points to get on the course then ? Lazy can be very easily spotted and removed from metrics.

mickydoomsux · 09-05-2015 04:22PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

How did they get the points to get on the course then ? Lazy can be very easily spotted and removed from metrics.

You need points to get into primary/secondary school now?

The Zec · 09-05-2015 04:23PM

The only fair way to give pay rises is by scrapping (the supposedly temporary) USC. But that wouldn't create this public/private sector animosity, distracting people from where their money is really going.

Dozen Wicked Words · 09-05-2015 04:24PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

It's amazing as soon as job is in the public sector all work becomes intangible and unquantifiable. Amazing that is.

You can bluster all you like, Im asking about nursing, its amazing you don't know there are nurses, large numbers of them, in the private sector too, the question is the same, how do you quantify what makes a good bad or indifferent nurse. I haven't read anything that suggests its as easy as you make out to judge or come up with a criteria to decide. Some things in some professions ARE intangible, I couldn't give a f*ck what sector they are in. It just doesn't fit your narrative.

bjork · 09-05-2015 04:24PM

mickydoomsux wrote: »

What if the students are unteachable thickos ?

Should we still cut the teachers pay?

All of them?
30 unteachable thickos in the one class?
No one learning anything in the classroom at all?

What the feck are they doing there?

mickydoomsux · 09-05-2015 04:34PM

If even 51% of them are thick then it would reflect poorly on the teacher in a results based situation.

bjork · 09-05-2015 04:39PM

mickydoomsux wrote: »

If even 51% of them are thick then it would reflect poorly on the teacher in a results based situation.

It doesn't matter if they are thick. A child going from a E to a D is learning. A E student staying at the entire year at E is not.

A child knowing more at the end of a lesson than they did at the start is learning.

The only way it reflects badly on the teacher is if they are not providing the right learning opportunities for the children >>Which is what they are trained to do

or if their behavior management is poor

Otherwise it's the child's responsibility

Dozen Wicked Words · 09-05-2015 04:42PM

omega man wrote: »

I wasn't even comparing them to co pilots! It was the example you provided so I used the co pilot captain relationship to demonstrate the importance of being able to question a captains decision. It's what co pilots are trained to do. I think comparing nurses to co pilots would be very kind to nurses if I'm honest!

Yep most nurses wouldn't have a clue how to fly a plane or how to put up with smug sounding condescending pricks of pilots either. Not you of course, I'm sure you're not a smug prick.

darkpagandeath · 09-05-2015 04:43PM

Dozen Wicked Words wrote: »

You can bluster all you like, Im asking about nursing, its amazing you don't know there are nurses, large numbers of them, in the private sector too, the question is the same, how do you quantify what makes a good bad or indifferent nurse. I haven't read anything that suggests its as easy as you make out to judge or come up with a criteria to decide. Some things in some professions ARE intangible, I couldn't give a f*ck what sector they are in. It just doesn't fit your narrative.

What narrative would that be then ? I'm not the one saying it "Can't be done".

darkpagandeath · 09-05-2015 04:44PM

Dozen Wicked Words wrote: »

Yep most nurses wouldn't have a clue how to fly a plane or how to put up with smug sounding condescending pricks of pilots either. Not you of course, I'm sure you're not a smug prick.

:pac::pac::pac:

Dozen Wicked Words · 09-05-2015 04:47PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

What narrative would that be then ? I'm not the one saying it "Can't be done".

Don't think I'm long for this thread. No, you are correct, that was some old sh*te I'd started to type but thought I'd written enough, meant to delete that line.

darkpagandeath · 09-05-2015 04:48PM

Dozen Wicked Words wrote: »

Don't think I'm long for this thread. No, you are correct, that was some old sh*te I'd started to type but thought I'd written enough, meant to delete that line.

Happens to the best of us.

Jawgap · 09-05-2015 05:17PM

bjork wrote: »

The ones who's students show individual progress.

Nothing to do with whether they get As, Bs or C's

Well it shouldn't be about grades but it is. You only have to look at the pressure put on kids to get points and not 'waste' points. As long as that kind of thinking is central to our education system, teaching and school performance will be measured by grades, points and students progressing to third level.

Public sector pay increase

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