Public sector pay increase

dub_skav · 08-05-2015 11:00AM

Yara Old Backyard wrote: »

People on welfare are not working or earning money so why should they get an increase.

It wouldn't be an increase, it would be a restoration, one not based on any performance indicators

08-05-2015 11:24AM

dub_skav wrote: »

It wouldn't be an increase, it would be a restoration, one not based on any performance indicators

They don't work, they are given money to survive. Social welfare shouldn't be in this debate at all. Public servants do work for their money and they don't need their performance measured to deserve their pay restored to what it should be.

Tiger Mcilroy · 08-05-2015 12:00PM

Yara Old Backyard wrote: »

They don't work, they are given money to survive. Social welfare shouldn't be in this debate at all. Public servants do work for their money and they don't need their performance measured to deserve their pay restored to what it should be.

Yes they do need the performance measured, currently increments are paid out irrespective of performance which has created the scenario where people are on a certain point of the scale unjustly and all increases are tied to this number and there is no desire to change this even though it was a major selling point of croke park and haddington.

This is conveniently ignored by the public servants arguing to justify the proposed increases.

To say that the work done within the public service is not accurately measurable is complete horse****.

08-05-2015 12:10PM

Tiger Mcilroy wrote: »

Yes they do need the performance measured, currently increments are paid out irrespective of performance which has created the scenario where people are on a certain point of the scale unjustly and all increases are tied to this number and there is no desire to change this even though it was a major selling point of croke park and haddington.

This is conveniently ignored by the public servants arguing to justify the proposed increases.

To say that the work done within the public service is not accurately measurable is complete horse****.

Performance is not measurable in many areas of the public service that's a fact. Increments are 100% justifiable and fair, you are in the job a year longer and have a years more experience which results in more responsibility etc. Public servants will never have the opportunities available to those in the private sector for big pay increases, promotion, bonuses, health care etc etc, increments are the very least they should be getting to make up for that.

Thankfully increments will never be done away with.

Others have made the point here that in the private sector pay increases regardless of performance or work load also, being more experienced is a justifiable reason for increased pay.

PeteFalk78 · 08-05-2015 12:12PM

Yara Old Backyard wrote: »

Thankfully increments will never be done away with.

I'm due my last increment in Jan 2016. It will be horrendous to think it will be my last

08-05-2015 12:16PM

PeteFalk78 wrote: »

I'm due my last increment in Jan 2016. It will be horrendous to think it will be my last

I'm due my first in July (provided my contract is renewed/I decide to stay on in the role).

Riskymove · 08-05-2015 12:24PM

Tiger Mcilroy wrote: »

This is conveniently ignored by the public servants arguing to justify the proposed increases.

It is also overlooked that many PS haven't been in line for an increment since the cuts

Tiger Mcilroy · 08-05-2015 12:31PM

Yara Old Backyard wrote: »

Performance is not measurable in many areas of the public service that's a fact. Increments are 100% justifiable and fair, you are in the job a year longer and have a years more experience which results in more responsibility etc. Public servants will never have the opportunities available to those in the private sector for big pay increases, promotion, bonuses, health care etc etc, increments are the very least they should be getting to make up for that.

Thankfully increments will never be done away with.

Others have made the point here that in the private sector pay increases regardless of performance or work load also, being more experienced is a justifiable reason for increased pay.

This is simply not true, you know it, everybody reading this knows it.

The reality is the can of worms that would be opened by a functioning well managed performance management system in the public would cause ructions from the top to the bottom.

There is no defence for the current setup and claiming the work being carried out cant be measured is false.

08-05-2015 12:39PM

Tiger Mcilroy wrote: »

This is simply not true, you know it, everybody reading this knows it.

The reality is the can of worms that would be opened by a functioning well managed performance management system in the public would cause ructions from the top to the bottom.

There is no defence for the current setup and claiming the work being carried out cant be measured is false.

You obviously lack an understanding of how many areas of the public sector work if you think its possible to implement a fair way of measuring performance. In fact an attempted to measure performance in many areas would lead to a much worse service being provided, interference various public service departments in their area's is already having this effect to some degree.

Tiger Mcilroy · 08-05-2015 12:44PM

Yara Old Backyard wrote: »

You obviously lack an understanding of how many areas of the public sector work if you think its possible to implement a fair way of measuring performance. In fact an attempted to measure performance in many areas would lead to a much worse service being provided, interference various public service departments in their area's is already having this effect to some degree.

Yeah the whole accountability and being responsible for your work thing is just awful.

08-05-2015 12:46PM

Tiger Mcilroy wrote: »

Yeah the whole accountability and being responsible for your work thing is just awful.

When it negatively interferes with the job you are trying to do then yes it is awful.

Geuze · 08-05-2015 12:51PM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

It's the 'interest payments vs GDP' that determines debt sustainability, not the overall level of public debt - and you don't reduce 'public debt vs GDP' by focusing monomaniacally on paying down the debt, you do it by growing GDP to its maximum growth potential first - which restores the private sector to full economic capacity in the process, helping to pay off all debts (public and private) faster once GDP is at its maximum growth potential.

What you are getting at here is the public debt sustainability equation.

See here:

http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2012/05/02/some-budgetary-arithmetic-for-fiscal-rules/

and here:

http://www.fiscalcouncil.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/DEW_121012.pdf

The change in the debt/GDP ratio is given by a simple formula:

Δd = [(i – g)/(1 + g)]d-1 – ps,

where d is the debt/GDP ratio (in percent of GDP), i is the average nominal interest rate on outstanding debt, g is the nominal growth rate, d-1 is the previous year’s debt/GDP ratio, and ps is the primary surplus (in percent of GDP).

bjork · 08-05-2015 12:56PM

Tiger Mcilroy wrote: »

Yeah the whole accountability and being responsible for your work thing is just awful.

I'd strike if they tried to make accountable for my work

jank · 08-05-2015 01:09PM

Yara Old Backyard wrote: »

You do realise those in the public service spend a large portion of their money in the private sector thus keeping people in jobs and generating company profits which in turn feed back into the government. Pay them more and they will spend more, despite their salary's being drastically (and wrongly) cut its the public servants that worked hard through the recession and basically kept the country afloat.

As I said, Great, double or triple everyone's wage in the Public Sector, if you follow that logic. You can of course see the simple fundamental problem with that ploy.

BoatMad · 08-05-2015 01:25PM

Yara Old Backyard wrote: »

You do realise those in the public service spend a large portion of their money in the private sector thus keeping people in jobs and generating company profits which in turn feed back into the government. Pay them more and they will spend more, despite their salary's being drastically (and wrongly) cut its the public servants that worked hard through the recession and basically kept the country afloat.

how did the PS " keep the country afloat",I bet this will be a good one

BoatMad · 08-05-2015 01:26PM

Riskymove wrote: »

It is also overlooked that many PS haven't been in line for an increment since the cuts

never understood the ideas of " increments "

Santa Cruz · 08-05-2015 01:50PM

Incompetent wasters in the private sector can be got rid of. Incompetent wasters in public service get promoted or put somewhere to limit their ability to **** up.

seamus · 08-05-2015 01:52PM

BoatMad wrote: »

never understood the ideas of " increments "

Weasel word invented by unions so that they can claim that increases in pay are not discretionary windfalls for better performance, but in fact are entitlements of someone regardless of quality or capability.

Unions have made an absolute mess of the public sector, resulting in poorer conditions for good public sector workers, not better conditions.

08-05-2015 02:09PM

BoatMad wrote: »

how did the PS " keep the country afloat",I bet this will be a good one

By spending their (much reduced) salary in businesses around the country.

crusier · 08-05-2015 02:13PM

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Incompetent wasters in the private sector can be got rid of. Incompetent wasters in public service get promoted or put somewhere to limit their ability to **** up.

That's a big brush you have there!

BoatMad · 08-05-2015 02:25PM

Yara Old Backyard wrote: »

By spending their (much reduced) salary in businesses around the country.

so did everyone, and also we had to scrape together more tax, such that the PS salaries could be paid in the first place.

Celticfire · 08-05-2015 02:53PM

seamus wrote: »

Weasel word invented by unions so that they can claim that increases in pay are not discretionary windfalls for better performance, but in fact are entitlements of someone regardless of quality or capability.

Unions have made an absolute mess of the public sector, resulting in poorer conditions for good public sector workers, not better conditions.

There's a thread over in the Irish Economic forum asking for alternatives to pay scales in the public sector. Considering the amount of people that continually deride the concept of incremental pay scales there's a surprising lack of any actual proposals or alternatives put forward.

08-05-2015 02:56PM

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Incompetent wasters in the private sector can be got rid of. Incompetent wasters in public service get promoted or put somewhere to limit their ability to **** up.

Is this your own imagination or is it being driven by some mind altering substance?

Kelly06 · 08-05-2015 07:24PM

SantaCruz wrote: »

Incompetent wasters in public service get promoted or put somewhere to limit their ability to **** up.

This isn't really true. When a job is put up you can apply for it depending on the qualifications and experience required. If there are too many applicants you will be subject to a shortlisting process where your application form is reviewed and points are rewarded under set criteria. If you are selected for interview you will be given a set number of points for educational attainment up to a max for a masters. After that it's all down to your performance in that 30 minute interview. Doesn't matter if you are an absolutely amazing worker or a lazy fecker who makes your colleagues working environment hell its all down to whether or not you have the gift of the gab and can answer all the completely left field questions that are thrown at you after hours and hours of studying. And trust me some of the interview questions (in my sector anyways) are hilarious you just couldn't prepare for them.the whole selection process is weighted towards extroverted confident people.

I have seen amazing workers who will miss breaks, stay late and be generally indispensable not even given the opportunity to interview for a role after 10 years service because of shortlisting criteria. In the private sector they probably wouldn't even have to interview for the role they would just be selected and promoted because they are the right person for the job. The grass is not always greener on the other side

darkpagandeath · 08-05-2015 08:12PM

Kelly06 wrote: »

This isn't really true. When a job is put up you can apply for it depending on the qualifications and experience required. If there are too many applicants you will be subject to a shortlisting process where your application form is reviewed and points are rewarded under set criteria. If you are selected for interview you will be given a set number of points for educational attainment up to a max for a masters. After that it's all down to your performance in that 30 minute interview. Doesn't matter if you are an absolutely amazing worker or a lazy fecker who makes your colleagues working environment hell its all down to whether or not you have the gift of the gab and can answer all the completely left field questions that are thrown at you after hours and hours of studying. And trust me some of the interview questions (in my sector anyways) are hilarious you just couldn't prepare for them.the whole selection process is weighted towards extroverted confident people.

I have seen amazing workers who will miss breaks, stay late and be generally indispensable not even given the opportunity to interview for a role after 10 years service because of shortlisting criteria. In the private sector they probably wouldn't even have to interview for the role they would just be selected and promoted because they are the right person for the job. The grass is not always greener on the other side

When did they introduce enforced performance related pay ?

darkpagandeath · 08-05-2015 08:26PM

Dozen Wicked Words wrote: »

So you want less nurses but higher quality ones? How do you quantify the quality of the nurse?

Performance like any other job, Are you denying Ireland's hospitals have some of the highest staff levels in the EU ? Yet the system is falling apart.

Dan_Solo · 08-05-2015 08:39PM

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Incompetent wasters in the private sector can be got rid of. Incompetent wasters in public service get promoted or put somewhere to limit their ability to **** up.

Tell that to Irish bank execs and developers!

Kelly06 · 08-05-2015 08:52PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

When did they introduce enforced performance related pay ?

My post wasn't about performance related pay it was about the difficulties excellent staff encounter trying to get a promotion. Sorry now if I'm missing something ?

Jawgap · 09-05-2015 10:59AM

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Incompetent wasters in the private sector can be got rid of. Incompetent wasters in public service get promoted or put somewhere to limit their ability to **** up.

This isn't generally true, but in my own experience I've seen it happen three times in about 12 years - you also get examples of political hacks appointed to boards who have zero experience in the sector in which an agency operates.

Dozen Wicked Words · 09-05-2015 12:45PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Performance like any other job, Are you denying Ireland's hospitals have some of the highest staff levels in the EU ? Yet the system is falling apart.

What performance indicators would you use to judge the quality or otherwise of a nurse?

Public sector pay increase

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