Public sector pay increase

awec · 07-05-2015 02:33PM

iba wrote: »

Wealth is created in the PS sector too. Fees are charged for services, eg passports.

Just because every service isn't free doesn't mean it's creating wealth.

Geuze · 07-05-2015 02:34PM

JillyQ wrote: »

The Employers PRSI is not paid by the public sector, they pay employees PRSI only.

Are you 100% sure about this?

Because the many PS payslips that I have seen include an amount for employers PRSI.

Iwasfrozen · 07-05-2015 02:34PM

Geuze wrote: »

Acc = 3yr degree + 3.5yrs apprentice

Teacher = 5 yrs in college + probationary period

Not that different.

How many professional exams do teachers have to pass?

Geuze · 07-05-2015 02:37PM

klark_kent wrote: »

if the goverment pays a guard 50 k but the guard then pays 12 k in taxes , the NET cost to the tax payer is 38 k but the guard still didnt create any wealth for the goverment to spend on wages and services etc

Please clarify what you mean by "wealth" here?

If a nurse in a hosp produces 100k of output, then national income increases by 100k.

If the nurse is PS or private sector, it doesn't matter.

Both contribute 100k to national income.

Geuze · 07-05-2015 02:38PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

How many professional exams do teachers have to pass?

5-6 years of exams.

Hard to say, maybe 32 exams approx.

awec · 07-05-2015 02:39PM

Geuze wrote: »

Please clarify what you mean by "wealth" here?

If a nurse in a hosp produces 100k of output, then national income increases by 100k.

If the nurse is PS or private sector, it doesn't matter.

Both contribute 100k to national income.

How would a nurse in a hospital produce 100k of output?

Iwasfrozen · 07-05-2015 02:40PM

Geuze wrote: »

5-6 years of exams.

Hard to say, maybe 32 exams approx.

lol a BA is not a professional qualification and the h dip has very few exams.

Geuze · 07-05-2015 02:41PM

People are getting bogged down with the phrase "wealth creation".

Note that a euro spent on a hosp has equal value to a euro of profits.

Here is the key national income equation:

Y = C + I + G+ X - M

Y = national income
C = household consumption
I = investment
G = Govt purchases
X = exports
M = imports

100m spent by the State on paying nurses or building a bypass has the same impact on national income as 100m spent by households on consumption.

JillyQ · 07-05-2015 02:41PM

Geuze wrote: »

Are you 100% sure about this?

Because the many PS payslips that I have seen include an amount for employers PRSI.

It cetainly wasnt up until a couple of years ago Employees PRSI was paid but not Employers it may have changed.

iba · 07-05-2015 02:43PM

On another point for all your PS bashers and haters, do none of you recognise the sterling work that Enterprise Ireland, Tourism Island, Bord Bia etc do to attract firms to Ireland, to create investment in Ireland, to attract tourists to Ireland, to sell Irish produce abroad. PS groups like this have played no small part in assisting in the recovery.

MonkeyTennis · 07-05-2015 02:43PM

Employer PRSI is definitely there

Geuze · 07-05-2015 02:45PM

awec wrote: »

How would a nurse in a hospital produce 100k of output?

Given that average output per worker is 90,000 approx in Ireland, and given that nurses tend to work in an middle to above average productivity sector, then it's reasonable to say that they produce 100,000 worth of output.

You would need to know more about the costs of procedures, but it seems reasonable to me.

My point is this:

Bank official produces 100k of output vs nurse produces 100k of output

They both contribute equally to national income.

relax carry on · 07-05-2015 02:47PM

JillyQ wrote: »

It cetainly wasnt up until a couple of years ago Employees PRSI was paid but not Employers it may have changed.

Not to doubt you but can you provide any evidence of that at all? I can't recall ever hearing that before or seeing any evidence of it. It's a pretty odd exemption to have.

iba · 07-05-2015 02:48PM

JillyQ wrote: »

It cetainly wasnt up until a couple of years ago Employees PRSI was paid but not Employers it may have changed.

Sorry but you are wrong.

In the past, prior to about 1995 or something, some PS paid a lower PRSI contribution. But these meant that they were entitled to less benefits from the social welfare system. Since 1995 or whatever all PS pay full PRSI.

In addition, PS employer's all pay PRSI.

PRSI btw as implied by the name is an insurance that an employee pays into in case they fall on hard times and then can get help i.e. social welfare. That is what insurance is all about.

PRSI does not go towards paying wages of PS employees, it goes towards social welfare. Taxes and other Government income pays PS wages.

JillyQ · 07-05-2015 02:50PM

relax carry on wrote: »

Not to doubt you but can you provide any evidence of that at all? I can't recall ever hearing that before or seeing any evidence of it. It's a pretty odd exemption to have.

I just took a quick look on citizens information and cant find it. But i know for certain was there as i said it may have changed in the last couple of years.

Iwasfrozen · 07-05-2015 02:50PM

iba wrote: »

On another point for all your PS bashers and haters, do none of you recognise the sterling work that Enterprise Ireland, Tourism Island, Bord Bia etc do to attract firms to Ireland, to create investment in Ireland, to attract tourists to Ireland, to sell Irish produce abroad. PS groups like this have played no small part in assisting in the recovery.

Can we all agree to stop using ps as an acronym? I can't be the only one getting confused.

kippy · 07-05-2015 02:51PM

klark_kent wrote: »

that never happened , their was no talk of " laughing at public sector workers " during the boom until the crash happened

its a union concocted lie and one which was then spread by the faithful

public servants done better during the boom than the private sector , guards were earning sixty grand per year on average which was equal to what those on the building sites were pulling in but the brickies had no pension

Speaking of concocted lies, you seem eager enough to spread them yourself.
Where exactly did you get the figure of 60 grand a year as the average salary for a Guard, at any time in the past decade?
http://www.gra.cc/payscales.shtml
Theres the pay scales, hard to see how, the average pay of a member of the gardai would average 60K, then or now for that matter.

07-05-2015 02:54PM

klark_kent wrote: »

my sister is a solicitor nearly ten years , she earns a good deal less than 50 k

She mustn't be doing it right so. You will look long and hard before you will find a working solicitor with 10 years experience only earning 50k never mind less. I have a number of friends in IT earning 50 to 70k and only in their late 20's with around 6 years experience.

JillyQ wrote: »

It cetainly wasnt up until a couple of years ago Employees PRSI was paid but not Employers it may have changed.

Employers prsi is definitely paid in the public sector, I see it on my payslip every month.

kippy · 07-05-2015 03:03PM

klark_kent wrote: »

that GRA site doesnt highlight the countless allowances which guards receive

And where exactly are these allowances set out.
I'd be skeptical as to thei impact of these allowances brining the average salary up to 60K per annum.

You've obviously got a reputable source for your 60K a year figure, please tell me where it is or have you worked it out yourself?

Quin_Dub · 07-05-2015 03:06PM

kippy wrote: »

And where exactly are these allowances set out.
I'd be skeptical as to thei impact of these allowances brining the average salary up to 60K per annum.

You've obviously got a reputable source for your 60K a year figure, please tell me where it is or have you worked it out yourself?

Salary scales and allowances

kippy · 07-05-2015 03:09PM

I'd add, I know these allowances exist and thanks for providing the link Quin Dub.
Now if only Klark can provide their source for 60K a year.

kippy · 07-05-2015 03:12PM

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/prison-officers-and-gardai-rank-as-highest-paid-88525.html
Average figures outlined there.
Garda Average 1158 per week as of December 08 at the end of the Celtic Tiger.
December 07 works our at 950 per week.

EazyD · 07-05-2015 03:16PM

iba wrote: »

Wealth is created in the PS sector too. Fees are charged for services, eg passports.

This would merely offset some of the cost of provision of such services, it does not create wealth.

bjork · 07-05-2015 03:27PM

At the organisation's annual conference, INMO President Claire Mahon said the extra beds were needed to deal with rising waiting lists and the increasing demand for services.

One nurse working in Dublin, Louise Devlin, told delegates how she and colleagues raised money to buy a hospital bed, such were the pressures.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0507/699269-hospital-waiting-lists/

Goodness nurses have to buy the beds themselves

Iwasfrozen · 07-05-2015 03:55PM

bjork wrote: »

At the organisation's annual conference, INMO President Claire Mahon said the extra beds were needed to deal with rising waiting lists and the increasing demand for services.

One nurse working in Dublin, Louise Devlin, told delegates how she and colleagues raised money to buy a hospital bed, such were the pressures.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0507/699269-hospital-waiting-lists/

Goodness nurses have to buy the beds themselves

Imagine how many beds that 2% public sector pay increase could have bought.

awec · 07-05-2015 04:05PM

bjork wrote: »

At the organisation's annual conference, INMO President Claire Mahon said the extra beds were needed to deal with rising waiting lists and the increasing demand for services.

One nurse working in Dublin, Louise Devlin, told delegates how she and colleagues raised money to buy a hospital bed, such were the pressures.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0507/699269-hospital-waiting-lists/

Goodness nurses have to buy the beds themselves

All this proves is that the public sector is not fit for purpose and this payrise isn't going to have any effect on that.

Any attempts to properly fix the public sector would be blocked by the unions who have no interest in reform.

uch · 07-05-2015 04:07PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Imagine how many beds that 2% public sector pay increase could have bought.

What increase is that now ?

bjork · 07-05-2015 04:07PM

uch wrote: »

What increase is that now ?

Would if be preferable to call it a winfall?

Iwasfrozen · 07-05-2015 04:08PM

uch wrote: »

What increase is that now ?

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/public-sector-set-for-2-pay-rise-31171774.html

BoatMad · 07-05-2015 04:08PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Imagine how many beds that 2% public sector pay increase could have bought.

our problem isn't beds, its the people in them

Public sector pay increase

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