Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

Frank Bullitt · 06-05-2015 06:48PM

hinault wrote: »

I'm Catholic.
It's not an article of faith for a Catholic to accept that the Flood happened.
I'm suggesting that the account of the Flood in the Bible might have a basis in fact.

The Bible doesn't purport to be a scientific book. It is a book that advocates for Faith.

Plate tectonics could be a catalyst for many things including the Flood, as told in the Old Testament.

There is lots of evidence which shows that water levels on this planet increased greatly at one point. Whether that evidence is sufficient to accept a literalist interpretation of the Flood story is one aspect.

I have read separately that the Flood story is analagous to the preservation of Faith. In that the arc represents the remnant of believers left in a world which denigrates God. To preserve the remnant from retribution, God gives believers notice that a great calamity will take place to avenge the heresy committed against God.

I always chuckle when the faithful try to use science to actually explain the myths in the bible.

Father Ted Crilly · 06-05-2015 06:59PM

Gintonious wrote: »

I always chuckle when the faithful try to use science to actually explain the myths in the bible.

The Bible is like a history book.

I always chuckle when the unfaithful choose not to believe in a certain historical fact.

I used to be a Catholic. Now I'm a Christian.

PopePalpatine · 06-05-2015 07:01PM

If you want us to believe, provide evidence to back up whatever the Bible's saying. That's not too much to ask.

Frank Bullitt · 06-05-2015 07:02PM

Father Ted Crilly wrote: »

The Bible is like a history book.

I always chuckle when the unfaithful choose not to believe in a certain historical fact.

I used to be a Catholic. Now I'm a Christian.

Facts, lets see them.

Huntergonzo · 06-05-2015 07:03PM

Father Ted Crilly wrote: »

The Bible is like a history book.

I always chuckle when the unfaithful choose not to believe in a certain historical fact.

I used to be a Catholic. Now I'm a Christian.

What is the difference between a catholic and christian anyway, I thought it was all the one book with the one God and the baby jaysus and that lark?

Father Ted Crilly · 06-05-2015 07:03PM

PopePalpatine wrote: »

If you want us to believe, provide evidence to back up whatever the Bible's saying. That's not too much to ask.

Are we talking about the Old Testament or the New Testament?

Father Ted Crilly · 06-05-2015 07:06PM

Huntergonzo wrote: »

What is the difference between a catholic and christian anyway, I thought it was all the one book with the one God and the baby jaysus and that lark?

There is a huge difference between Catholics and Christians.

You see, Christians believe that Christ is our savior and that the only way to "get to God" is to believe in him.

Catholicism totally contradicts the Bible.

Frank Bullitt · 06-05-2015 07:06PM

Father Ted Crilly wrote: »

Are we talking about the Old Testament or the New Testament?

You can pick.

Huntergonzo · 06-05-2015 07:07PM

Father Ted Crilly wrote: »

There is a huge difference between Catholics and Christians.

You see, Christians believe that Christ is our savior and that the only way to "get to God" is to believe in him.

Catholicism totally contradicts the Bible.

I thought catholics believe the exact same thing, how are they different?

Father Ted Crilly · 06-05-2015 07:24PM

Huntergonzo wrote: »

I thought catholics believe the exact same thing, how are they different?

I've posted why I'm not a Catholic anymore in the Christianity section so go check that thread out before it gets deleted or something. I'm not sure if it's allowed.

obplayer · 06-05-2015 07:27PM

Father Ted Crilly wrote: »

Are we talking about the Old Testament or the New Testament?

Either would be a good start.

hinault · 07-05-2015 01:22AM

silverharp wrote: »

Why would volcanic mountains form at the same time? There are going to be older and newer parts.
You don't claim to know because you will not read the literature if it interests you so much that you question the science.
There is a geography form on boards , ask your question there and you might get some people to discuss it?
To bring it back to Noah , as the fossils on top of various mountains differ in age by millions of years what possible backup for the Noah story does it give? None , you need a flood that happened 4000 years ago right? Or less than a hundred thousand years ago if you go with a more liberal interpration ;-)

I don't put an age on when the Flood happened. The scientific evidence concerning when the Flood might have happened varies between 5,000 years ago and 15,000 years ago.

The fact that fossils of sea creatures have been found on mountain tops throughout the world begs the question, how did they get to those mountain tops?

It may be the case that their presence on those mountain tops is evidence of there being a flood of some kind where the waters rose so high that all sorts of stuff from the sea was deposited across those locations.

Frank Bullitt · 07-05-2015 04:17AM

hinault wrote: »

I don't put an age on when the Flood happened. The scientific evidence concerning when the Flood might have happened varies between 5,000 years ago and 15,000 years ago.

The fact that fossils of sea creatures have been found on mountain tops throughout the world begs the question, how did they get to those mountain tops?

It may be the case that their presence on those mountain tops is evidence of there being a flood of some kind where the waters rose so high that all sorts of stuff from the sea was deposited across those locations.

Its not evidence of a flood, its evidence that the world was once covered in water.

Peregrinus · 07-05-2015 04:24AM

Gintonious wrote: »

Its not evidence of a flood, its evidence that the world was once covered in water.

It's not even that. It's evidence that the landform which is now the mountain top was, at one time, covered by water. That doesn't require the world to have been covered by water; just this particular part of it.

El_Duderino 09 · 07-05-2015 06:57AM

hinault wrote: »

I don't put an age on when the Flood happened. The scientific evidence concerning when the Flood might have happened varies between 5,000 years ago and 15,000 years ago.

The fact that fossils of sea creatures have been found on mountain tops throughout the world begs the question, how did they get to those mountain tops?

It may be the case that their presence on those mountain tops is evidence of there being a flood of some kind where the waters rose so high that all sorts of stuff from the sea was deposited across those locations.

The flood happened for a short period of about a year right? That gives rise to 2 points.

1 would that be long enough for mountains to become suitable habitats for sea creatures and for sea creatures to migrate to the tops of those mountains.

2 The idea that we would find fossils from 1 particular year in history is a bit mad and demonstrates how little you understand about how fossils are laid down.

We have a perfectly good theory of tectonic plates which can explain finding sea creatures on mountain tops and lots more besides. That's the better theory because it conforms to more of the facts.

You keep saying 'flood theory could explain finding whale bones on mountain tops'. We'll it could explain it but it could explain very little else. Tectonic plate theory has the explanatory power to explain lots of phenomena including the one thing you gift to flood theory.

Your point could equally apply to flat earth theory in that it explains 1 paragraph from the bible and nothing else that we see in reality.

silverharp · 07-05-2015 07:32AM

hinault wrote: »

I don't put an age on when the Flood happened. The scientific evidence concerning when the Flood might have happened varies between 5,000 years ago and 15,000 years ago.

The fact that fossils of sea creatures have been found on mountain tops throughout the world begs the question, how did they get to those mountain tops?

It may be the case that their presence on those mountain tops is evidence of there being a flood of some kind where the waters rose so high that all sorts of stuff from the sea was deposited across those locations.

so for the record then you dont accept that the Himalayas were created by the collision of the plates of India and Asia?

ok we will move on, what about the layers of sediment around the planet which do not reflect any sort of one off event? instead random layers depending on local circumstances but with a fossil record which is layered based on the types of animals that existed at the time?

how are there fresh water fish when they would have been killed when they hit sea water? not a lot of time for fish to evolve back to fresh water fish?

How did the Kangaroos get to Australia without leaving a fossil record along the way through Asia?

What did the animals eat when they got off the ark? No trees, no plants , no animals?

separately from a religious perspective, why would a god use such an absurd method to do a reset?

<snip>

07-05-2015 08:27AM

hinault wrote: »

I don't put an age on when the Flood happened. The scientific evidence concerning when the Flood might have happened varies between 5,000 years ago and 15,000 years ago.

The fact that fossils of sea creatures have been found on mountain tops throughout the world begs the question, how did they get to those mountain tops?

It may be the case that their presence on those mountain tops is evidence of there being a flood of some kind where the waters rose so high that all sorts of stuff from the sea was deposited across those locations.

Citation required

brian_t · 07-05-2015 09:13AM

silverharp wrote: »

for a bit of comedy relief

I thought that was what the The "Funny ha, ha" side of religion! thread in your forum was for.

hinault · 07-05-2015 09:14AM

silverharp wrote: »

so for the record then you dont accept that the Himalayas were created by the collision of the plates of India and Asia?

Where did I deny that mountain ranges weren't created by the collision of plates?

silverharp wrote: »

how are there fresh water fish when they would have been killed when they hit sea water? not a lot of time for fish to evolve back to fresh water fish?

Presumably on the same basis as fish and other sea creature now found
salinated water.

silverharp wrote: »

How did the Kangaroos get to Australia without leaving a fossil record along the way through Asia?

The same species is found in New Guinea.

Fossils found in southern Africa are from the same species (marsupials) as the Kangaroo.

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2003/dec/12/fossils.internationalnews

silverharp wrote: »

What did the animals eat when they got off the ark? No trees, no plants , no animals?

Noah was commanded to gather and store enough food for the flood and it's aftermath.

This is an interesting link
http://www.rae.org/pdf/noah.pdf

silverharp · 07-05-2015 09:39AM

hinault wrote: »

Where did I deny that mountain ranges weren't created by the collision of plates?

Presumably on the same basis as fish and other sea creature now found
salinated water.

The same species is found in New Guinea.

Fossils found in southern Africa are from the same species (marsupials) as the Kangaroo.

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2003/dec/12/fossils.internationalnews

Noah was commanded to gather and store enough food for the flood and it's aftermath.

This is an interesting link
http://www.rae.org/pdf/noah.pdf

But if you accept the plates explanation then by definition the mountain were once at sea level where the fossils originated.

As for the kangaroos , you need to explain why there are no 10000 year old fossils along the wsy and how did they actually get to Australia? The real history is that australia was part of the Antarctica continent and was once a forested continent that underwent a big change in conditions as it split away which generated its own diversity

How could noah store that much food on a boat that is about the fifth the size of the average cruise liner? And how did he keep about 3 to 5 years worth of meat fresh without refrigeration? Not to mention all the specific diets of each particular animal... Its absurd

07-05-2015 09:53AM

hinault wrote: »

This is an interesting link
http://www.rae.org/pdf/noah.pdf

This link is to "topics dealt with" inside a book. That's not interesting, unless you have a particular interest in "topics dealt with inside books".

ScumLord · 07-05-2015 02:49PM

There is absolutely no scientific evidence for a global flood, zero. The closest thing to a global flood would be after the last ice age sea levels probably would have risen a total of 120 metre, that would have happened gradually though over the course of hundreds of years. Enough to create a story, a story that maybe got embellished over the millennia.

silverharp · 07-05-2015 03:15PM

ScumLord wrote: »

There is absolutely no scientific evidence for a global flood, zero. The closest thing to a global flood would be after the last ice age sea levels probably would have risen a total of 120 metre, that would have happened gradually though over the course of hundreds of years. Enough to create a story, a story that maybe got embellished over the millennia.

I'd make the same argument to Holocaust deniers , publish an academic paper and you won't have to wait long for your Nobel prize.

indioblack · 07-05-2015 03:59PM

hinault wrote: »

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

If I'm right and you're wrong, you'll have an awfully long time to live with that!:)

Are you sure you meant to say that? I hope not.
If you did it's an awful indictment of religious belief.
The implication is that you might be wrong.
Not a lot of faith in that statement.
"If I'm right and your wrong, you'll have an awfully long time to live with that!"
Which could be construed as "I'm alright, Jack" - and an obvious relish at the fate of the person you're addressing.

MrPudding · 07-05-2015 04:45PM

silverharp wrote: »

But if you accept the plates explanation then by definition the mountain were once at sea level where the fossils originated.

As for the kangaroos , you need to explain why there are no 10000 year old fossils along the wsy and how did they actually get to Australia? The real history is that australia was part of the Antarctica continent and was once a forested continent that underwent a big change in conditions as it split away which generated its own diversity

How could noah store that much food on a boat that is about the fifth the size of the average cruise liner? And how did he keep about 3 to 5 years worth of meat fresh without refrigeration? Not to mention all the specific diets of each particular animal... Its absurd

I am going to go ahead and go with Magic. Magic is the answer to your questions.

MrP

Father Ted Crilly · 07-05-2015 05:02PM

If God did flood the place with water then he would have had to remove it before Enda Kenny taxed him for it.

Wasn't there a photograph taken of a mysterious huge object in some mountains that people have speculated to be Noah's Ark?

ScumLord · 07-05-2015 05:05PM

Father Ted Crilly wrote: »

Wasn't there a photograph taken of a mysterious huge object in some mountains that people have speculated to be Noah's Ark?

What, like a giant boat?

silverharp · 07-05-2015 05:22PM

Father Ted Crilly wrote: »

Wasn't there a photograph taken of a mysterious huge object in some mountains that people have speculated to be Noah's Ark?

would that count as arkeology?

Father Ted Crilly · 07-05-2015 05:31PM

ScumLord wrote: »

What, like a giant boat?

Yes.

I don't know if it has been investigated yet or not. All I know is that either a drone or satellite or something took a photo of some isolated mountains that nobody goes near and the object is in the shape of a boat and it's big and they think it's Noah's Ark.

Benny_Cake · 07-05-2015 05:46PM

Father Ted Crilly wrote: »

Yes.

I don't know if it has been investigated yet or not. All I know is that either a drone or satellite or something took a photo of some isolated mountains that nobody goes near and the object is in the shape of a boat and it's big and they think it's Noah's Ark.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ararat_anomaly

Plenty of people visit Mount Ararat, and climb it. I'd imagine if there was a large boat there it would have been noticed, or at least chopped up and used for souvenirs.

Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

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