How will you vote in the Marriage Equality referendum? Mod Note Post 1

gravehold wrote: »

I am voting yes I have no reason to look at the posters, you said some had lies I just wanted to read the specific lies as they can be reported, google one with the lies as you know which poster it is and could find it quicker then me looking at each one.

I hope you took photo's and reported ones with legitimate lies to the council so they can remove them.

The big fat lie on two of the posters is that there are children referenced at all.

Poster 1. "Surrogacy, She needs her mother for life, not just for 9 months", with photo of upset looking toddler - the lie is that this is not a referendum on surrogacy. The outcome either way will have no effect on surrogacy whatsoever.

Poster 2. "Children deserve a mother and a father". Again, the lie is that this has nothing to do with the referendum. In this they are also lying by omission of the truth, in that a) there is no child that deserves a bad mother and a bad father, many are far better off without one or both, and b) The implication that having a mother and a father is better (making by default, all other parenting combinations inferior) is completely unsupported by any peer reviewed research anywhere.

Poster 3. Not about children, but makes out Civil Partnership to be going as far as needed. "We already have Civil Partnerships. Don't redefine Marriage." This is at least addressing the actual referendum topic, so I can't include that in their lies.

gravehold wrote: »

Will it come in before the referendum? Because if not then atm voting for SSM will allow gay couple to adopt that is not allowed at this moment in time.

The legislation has been signed into law but not come into force yet - far as I know that is due on the 19th May - until it does come into force govt websites will contain the old info because, technically, the old stuff is still the law.

It's like if they said we have enacted legislation that anyone smoking a pipe while driving a convertible will get 3 penalty points. This will come into force at 11 pm on May 30th. At 10.59 pm you can puff away - at 11.01 you are risking points and being very very bold.

gravehold wrote: »

These are just opinions not lies

The lie is, and I repeat, that surrogacy is not a referendum issue here. When it is, I will consider the opinions carefully. Right now, it is an insidious lie to link it to same sex marriage.

Shrap wrote: »

The second is an opinion that is heavily overridden by all credible research. It has no business being proposed as a fact, nor does it have any baring on the referendum. Therefore it is misleading, to the point of lying.

Well, the first one is overridden by all credible research, which makes it a lie. For every measurable value of 'need', the evidence shows that she doesn't.

The reason I call the second one an opinion is because you can't measure what someone 'deserves'. It's not technically a lie, it's just airy-fairy, irrelevant nonsense.

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Well, the first one is overridden by all credible research, which makes it a lie. For every measurable value of 'need', the evidence shows that she doesn't.

The reason I call the second one an opinion is because you can't measure what someone 'deserves'. It's not technically a lie, it's just airy-fairy, irrelevant nonsense.

Fair enough! They're both a far cry from relevant though, and to my mind it's outrageous that referendum sloganeering isn't held to at least that standard.

gravehold wrote: »

If you can prove they are a lie the council will remove them, email your local council

It's grand, there are people going around removing them anyway.

Mousewar wrote: »

At the moment, in adoption, are married adopting couples given any kind of precedence over a)unmarried couples, b)single people. (i.e. will a married couple have a greater chance of successfully adopting than an unmarried couple or a single person?)

And, if this is the case will that precedence be affected by a Yes vote in this referendum (i.e., will a Yes vote result in married same sex couples now being as likely as married alternate sex couples to successfully adopt?)

Firstly, you are right to state that the adoption thing is covered by separate legislation, and as such is unconnected to the referendum.

Secondly, the issue of adoption criteria is complex. There are minimum criteria, which are set out by the Adoption Authority of Ireland as follows:

The following persons are eligible to adopt:-

(a) a married couple living together; this is the only circumstance where the law permits the adoption of a child by more than one person;

(b) a married person alone; in this circumstance the spouse’s consent to adopt must be obtained unless they are living apart and are separated under (i) a court decree or (ii) deed of separation or (iii) the spouse has deserted the prospective adopter or (iv) conduct on the part of the spouse results in the prospective adopter with just cause leaving the spouse and living apart;

(c) the mother, father or relative of the child (relative meaning a grandparent, brother, sister, uncle or aunt of the child and /or the spouse of any such person, the relationship to the child being traced through the mother or the father);

(d) a widow or widower

A sole applicant who does not come within the classes of person defined under (c) and (d) above may only adopt where the Adoption Authority is satisfied that, in the particular circumstances of the case, it is desirable to grant an order. It is not possible for two unmarried persons to adopt jointly.

So as you can see a LGBT person is is currently eligible to adopt provided they are related to the child, but a LGBT couple is not. This would be changed by the passing of the referendum, so that the child's adoptive parents now have custodial protection afforded by the state in the event of one parent dying.

However the 2015 act also allows for couples in a CP and co-habitating couples to adopt, though the guidelines have not been updated on the AAI website yet.

The criteria for assessing / ranking of candidates for adoption is not shown on the website, and might not in fact even be published anywhere. This is where the accredited agency carries out an assessment of the suitability of proposed adoptive parents. I can only assume that criteria would include important issues such as

• Means to provide for the child's needs
• Environment for care
• Education of parents, attitudes towards education
• General health of the proposed adopter

but I just do not know for sure. The Child and Family Agency explains the assessment process as follows:

Applicants being considered by an adoption agency will undergo a detailed assessment. This assessment takes place over a period of time, ranging from 9 to 15 months, sometimes longer. The purpose of this assessment is to establish applicants' suitability as prospective adoptive parents. The assessment is carried out by a social worker. It includes a number of interviews and home visits. Where the application is from a married couple, there will be both individual and joint interviews. The social worker will discuss such areas as previous and/or current relationships, motives for adopting, expectations of the child and the ability to help a child to develop his/her knowledge and understanding of his/her natural background. All applicants are required to undergo a medical examination. If planning to adopt abroad, the assessment will include issues surrounding the child's cultural background and possible special needs.

I would interpret this to mean that the very few adoption orders issued in Ireland are in fact very well assessed, insofar as is possible to do so.

So does the referendum mean that a man who marries another man who has divorced his wife can adopt the children from his partner's first marriage? (This bizarre circumstance is being touted by many in the "NO" camp)

- No. Adoption of children from a prior marriage is not permitted (source)

My particular misgiving with the "NO" campaign is that they are taking the view that because it will be possible for an abusive LGBT couple to apply for adoption, then all LGBTs should be denied marriage. In reality most abuse of children comes from their natural heterosexual parents, so legislating for the extremes within LGBT while ignoring the same extremes in heterosexual couples is simply . . . . homophobic. It is absolutely no different to passing a law to refuse the award of social welfare to (insert ethnic group here) on the basis that there may be some within that ethnic group who would defraud the social welfare system.

As for the 'denying them a father or mother' argument . . . well if the state & people believed in that then we would never have allowed our constitution to provide for divorce.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

No.

It's a down right lie.
One has nothing to do with the other.

It's like saying if you vote yes penalty points for using a mobile phone while driving will be increased.

The legislation will come into force even if there is a no vote.

Hightlighted part is correct, but the change to the law is due to the referendum in the expectation of a yes vote.

RobertKK wrote: »

Hightlighted part is correct, but the change to the law is due to the referendum in the expectation of a yes vote.

No.

The change in the law is due to the yes in the Children's Referendum.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

No.

The change in the law is due to the yes in the Children's Referendum.

Government stated that they would have the changes brought in before the referendum so the law is the same for same sex couples.

gravehold wrote: »

Unless the referendum comes into force before the c&fr act does. When is the c&fr act coming into force?

I believe it is already in force.