How will you vote in the Marriage Equality referendum? Mod Note Post 1

05-05-2015 05:02PM

SpaceTime wrote: »

I'm finding a lot of the older generation is quite disillusioned with the church authorities, especially the ones who had encounters with it in the old days when it was all powerful.
They're a LOT less conservative than people think. This isn't the US or the UK in that regard.

And what a great thing that is I think we agree?

Being a yes voter though I wish I could influence more of those older people to actually vote - because while a number of them have expressed no interest as it does not affect them - the majority of those would be - I am convinced - yes voters were they to vote.

I have found few arguments to compel them however - as they genuinely see no affect on themselves from this vote. The single argument I have come up with so far that has at least given them good pause - and maybe compelled one or two of them to vote - is to point out it is THEIR constitution that is being changed - and that essentially affects them.

Anyone else who has better arguments to suggest to the "Does not affect me" crowd though - I am all ears!

endacl · 05-05-2015 05:03PM

gravehold wrote: »

Care to point out specific lies on offical posters.

Anything to do with 'surrogacy'. For a start.

Maximus Alexander · 05-05-2015 05:03PM

gravehold wrote: »

They are upholding their beliefs just as the yes side is upholding theirs on the day everyone get a freedom to vote and side that has the majority will win. The no side is no more forcing on people then the yes side are in the end the most popular opinion will be decided in a democratic way.

The no side are absolutely forcing themselves on people.

They are taking something which can have no effect on themselves, same sex marriage, and saying to other people "No, you can't have it because of what I believe."

Since there is no way to sincerely hold an evidence-based position in opposition to same sex marriage, the only reasons to do this are out of either ignorance, or cruelty.

gravehold · 05-05-2015 05:04PM

Deleted User wrote: »

- is to point out it is THEIR constitution that is being changed - and that essentially affects them.

Anyone else who has better arguments to suggest to the "Does not affect me" crowd though - I am all ears!

Wouldn't that only just get people that don't want it to change to vote.

efb · 05-05-2015 05:05PM

Well I got a very positive response across all th the ages in Tullamore today

Maximus Alexander · 05-05-2015 05:07PM

efb wrote: »

Well I got a very positive response across all th the ages in Tullamore today

What was happening in Tullamore?

gravehold · 05-05-2015 05:07PM

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

The no side are absolutely forcing themselves on people.

They are taking something which can have no effect on themselves, same sex marriage, and saying to other people "No, you can't have it because of what I believe."

Since there is no way to sincerely hold an evidence-based position in opposition to same sex marriage, the only reasons to do this are out of either ignorance, or cruelty.

Their faith is a valid a reason as any for them to vote no and that's their right. If that opinion is the minority then it won't effect you everyone gets a choice yours is no more valid then the next.

gravehold · 05-05-2015 05:08PM

endacl wrote: »

Anything to do with 'surrogacy'. For a start.

I havn't read the no stuff, post the exact lie as it's on the poster.

Mousewar · 05-05-2015 05:08PM

Long thread so the answer to this question may be within so forgive me but...

I'm having something of a debate with a no voter. The sticking point with them, as it seems to be for many, is the adoption thing. A few people here have pointed out the fallacy in this line of thinking as Adoption is governed by separate legislation.

However, I'm looking for a straightforward answer to this particular question.

At the moment, in adoption, are married adopting couples given any kind of precedence over a)unmarried couples, b)single people. (i.e. will a married couple have a greater chance of successfully adopting than an unmarried couple or a single person?)

And, if this is the case will that precedence be affected by a Yes vote in this referendum (i.e., will a Yes vote result in married same sex couples now being as likely as married alternate sex couples to successfully adopt?)

Maximus Alexander · 05-05-2015 05:09PM

gravehold wrote: »

Their faith is a valid a reason as any for them to vote no and that's their right. If that opinion is the minority then it won't effect you everyone gets a choice yours is no more valid then the next.

They can vote as they wish, for whatever reason that they wish. And I can say what I think of them for doing so.

endacl · 05-05-2015 05:09PM

gravehold wrote: »

Their faith is a valid a reason as any for them to vote no and that's their right. If that opinion is the minority then it won't effect you everyone gets a choice yours is no more valid then the next.

Their faith is a valid factor in how they inform their vote. There are other factors. Education, life experience, personal conscience etc. Religious faith does not require an abdication of free thought.

endacl · 05-05-2015 05:14PM

gravehold wrote: »

I havn't read the no stuff, post the exact lie as it's on the poster.

You haven't read the no stuff? Really?

You can read it now, if your Google machine is working.

osarusan · 05-05-2015 05:17PM

gravehold wrote: »

I havn't read the no stuff.

How convenient.

gravehold · 05-05-2015 05:20PM

endacl wrote: »

You haven't read the no stuff? Really?

You can read it now, if your Google machine is working.

I am voting yes I have no reason to look at the posters, you said some had lies I just wanted to read the specific lies as they can be reported, google one with the lies as you know which poster it is and could find it quicker then me looking at each one.

I hope you took photo's and reported ones with legitimate lies to the council so they can remove them.

PopePalpatine · 05-05-2015 05:20PM

Mousewar wrote: »

Long thread so the answer to this question may be within so forgive me but...

I'm having something of a debate with a no voter. The sticking point with them, as it seems to be for many, is the adoption thing. A few people here have pointed out the fallacy in this line of thinking as Adoption is governed by separate legislation.

However, I'm looking for a straightforward answer to this particular question.

At the moment, in adoption, are married adopting couples given any kind of precedence over a)unmarried couples, b)single people. (i.e. will a married couple have a greater chance of successfully adopting than an unmarried couple or a single person?)

And, if this is the case will that precedence be affected by a Yes vote in this referendum (i.e., will a Yes vote result in married same sex couples now being as likely as married alternate sex couples to successfully adopt?)

I don't think married couples are given precedence over anyone just on the basis that they're married, and that shouldn't change if a the referendum passes.

05-05-2015 05:21PM

gravehold wrote: »

Wouldn't that only just get people that don't want it to change to vote.

I have no doubt it would get SOME such people to vote yes. But as I said my experience (anecdotal only) is that the older generation of the "Wont vote - does not affect me" group are predominantly people who would vote yes if they found reason to do so.

I am under no illusion that if I suddenly magically made 1000 old people vote who were not going to - that they would all vote yes - and I realise I would be generating no voters too - but I feel the majority would be yes voters. Again anecdotal - but I suspect it strongly enough to have no qualms about motivating them to vote.

RobertKK · 05-05-2015 05:23PM

Both sides using incredulous arguments.

No one forcing yes or no views on me. I'm fed up with both sides to be honest.
Each side believes thrir argument whether it involves using children, jobs, equality, their own view on the definition of marriage.
No one canvassed me yet, missed the politicians who popped by campaigning for the by election.
I expect in rural Kilkenny and Carlow most of them will avoid the issue.

efb · 05-05-2015 05:23PM

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

What was happening in Tullamore?

Yes bus came we were canvassing

RobertKK · 05-05-2015 05:25PM

I think most people treat canvassers like the Jehovah Witnesses, you just go along with them so you hurry up their departure.

Hyzepher · 05-05-2015 05:25PM

This report from the Adoption Authority of Ireland is very interesting - especially for those who would like to get a good indication of the real type of families living in Ireland.

PDF
http://www.aai.gov.ie/attachments/article/32/Annual_Report_2013.pdf

The number of adoptions is really low and within the gay community I'd say it was bordering on non-existent.

The number of births outside marriage is incredible - I'd be willing to bet that all consider themselves a family.

seamus · 05-05-2015 05:26PM

Mousewar wrote: »

At the moment, in adoption, are married adopting couples given any kind of precedence over a)unmarried couples, b)single people. (i.e. will a married couple have a greater chance of successfully adopting than an unmarried couple or a single person?)

No, basically. The Children and Family Relationships act basically levelled the playing field in relation to adoption such that married couples, civil partners and cohabiting partners of more than 3 years are all treated on a equal footing where it comes to adoption.

And, if this is the case will that precedence be affected by a Yes vote in this referendum (i.e., will a Yes vote result in married same sex couples now being as likely as married alternate sex couples to successfully adopt?)

So a Yes vote will not change a gay couple's eligibility for adoption.

Maximus Alexander · 05-05-2015 05:27PM

efb wrote: »

Yes bus came we were canvassing

Good stuff. The best possible thing to do to pick up yes votes is for gay people to get out and speak face to face with voters. Delighted to hear you got a positive response.

gravehold · 05-05-2015 05:27PM

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I don't think married couples are given precedence over anyone just on the basis that they're married, and that shouldn't change if a the referendum passes.

aai.gov.ie/index.php/domestic-adoption/faq-domestic-adoption.html

Atm they are, this might change without the referendum though.

MrWalsh · 05-05-2015 05:28PM

gravehold wrote: »

aai.gov.ie/index.php/domestic-adoption/faq-domestic-adoption.html

Atm they are, this might change without the referendum though.

Its already changed in the Children and Family Relationships Act.

gravehold · 05-05-2015 05:29PM

MrWalsh wrote: »

Its already changed in the Children and Family Relationships Act.

There guidlines still say married couples so why havn't they updated it?

Hyzepher · 05-05-2015 05:30PM

gravehold wrote: »

There guidlines still say married couples so why havn't they updated it?

They list who is eligible to adopt - they don't rank them

Maximus Alexander · 05-05-2015 05:32PM

gravehold wrote: »

There guidlines still say married couples so why havn't they updated it?

Probably because the legislation hasn't come into force yet.

I really would recommend reading about this stuff.

gravehold · 05-05-2015 05:33PM

Hyzepher wrote: »

They list who is eligible to adopt - they don't rank them

"(a) a married couple living together; this is the only circumstance where the law permits the adoption of a child by more than one person;"

This needs to be changed cause it reads as a CP gay couple cannot adopt as a couple ATM and this is from an offical government site. If it's wrong people should email them to correct the info.

gravehold · 05-05-2015 05:35PM

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Probably because the legislation hasn't come into force yet.

I really would recommend reading about this stuff.

Will it come in before the referendum? Because if not then atm voting for SSM will allow gay couple to adopt that is not allowed at this moment in time.

Maximus Alexander · 05-05-2015 05:36PM

gravehold wrote: »

Will it come in before the referendum? Because if not then atm voting for SSM will allow gay couple to adopt that is not allowed at this moment in time.

It will come into force regardless of the result of the referendum. It was signed into law on the 6th of April.

How will you vote in the Marriage Equality referendum? Mod Note Post 1

Comments