How will you vote in the Marriage Equality referendum? Mod Note Post 1

SpaceTime · 05-05-2015 10:50AM

Grayditch wrote: »

I always pretend I'm gay in those situations and just say "Yeah, I'm gay" I'd rather an awkward silence for the rest of the journey than listen to that ****e.

There's nothing worse than being on your way to/from a stressful meeting and being stuck in a small space with someone ranting at you like that though.

I just said : look! I'm not interested. Stop the cab please - I want to get out.

My life is stressful enough without paying someone and receiving that kind of "friendly service". I'd rather just get soaked in the rain.

MrWalsh · 05-05-2015 10:52AM

SpaceTime wrote: »

There's nothing worse than being on your way to/from a stressful meeting and being stuck in a small space with someone ranting at you like that though.

I just said : look! I'm not interested. Stop the cab please - I want to get out.

My life is stressful enough without paying someone and receiving that kind of "friendly service". I'd rather just get soaked in the rain.

Id rather the default in taxis was silence tbh. Ive been subjected to plenty of racism, sexism, homophobia and just plain boring nonsense in my time - Id really rather just zone out and get from A to B quietly.

One eyed Jack · 05-05-2015 10:53AM

noway12345 wrote: »

It's why most will be voting no. Not many really care about gay people marrying, get over yourselves. It's the future of kids that people care about.

If it is indeed children's futures you care about, do you not realise that every adult here was a child once, and that the present generation of children will be the future generations adults, and when they grow up, it will have been this generation will have denied them the opportunity to be treated as equal citizens on the basis of their sexual orientation, just like you are proposing we should do now.

You say that "not many people care about gay people marrying", yet as it turns out, you are one of the people who would see them denied that opportunity because you think it will prevent them from being or becoming parents. It won't. All your no vote will do is mean that the children you care so much about, will not have the same protection of society as other children.

If you actually do care about children, then a yes vote is one of the ways in which you can ensure that children are protected. After all, their parents being married is no skin off your nose, right?

Shrap · 05-05-2015 10:53AM

noway12345 wrote: »

It isn't homophobic in the slightest. Single parents can't do as good a job as a mum and a dad either.

Would love you to say that to my face. You'd get short shrift from me and my kids buddy :mad:

Grayditch · 05-05-2015 10:54AM

Ha. I know plenty of people who grew up with both parents in the house, but only one of them present, if you get me. They've told me if was harder than if the dad had just legged it before they were born, so that they could reason with the fact that the dad was staying away because of selfishness or fear or whatever, rather than a parent in the house who knew you, saw you every day and ignored you.

Can you see where I'm going with this? An every day reminder of how one parent was disgusted at them being gay. Seeing it in their eyes every day.

Is that better than having just one parent who loved you in a house you felt accepted? Every household is different. Voting No doesn't create a perfect family utopia for everyone, and it doesn't preserve anything that's already there. This isn't about kids, anyway.

Ash.J.Williams · 05-05-2015 10:56AM

A casual observation: the No side are treating the YES side as a child stealing cult

humanji · 05-05-2015 10:57AM

Shrap wrote: »

Would love you to say that to my face. You'd get short shrift from me and my kids buddy :mad:

MOD: He's a troll who's banned from this thread and currently banned from the forum, so you don't have to worry about them.

Delirium · 05-05-2015 11:01AM

noway12345 wrote: »

It isn't homophobic in the slightest. Single parents can't do as good a job as a mum and a dad either.

nonsense. It would depend entirely on the single parent you compare to a two-parent household.

Plus you're being somewhat disingenious seeing as you posted the following:

Children are better off with a mum and a dad. This is not homophobic and this is why most of the no voters will vote that way. Get over it.

as an argument against same-sex marriage. So you're only stating two parents are better than one when it's a male+female couple.

Shrap · 05-05-2015 11:02AM

humanji wrote: »

MOD: He's a troll who's banned from this thread and currently banned from the forum, so you don't have to worry about them.

Thanks. Genuinely feel like gay parents and single parents are in this together due to the outrageous attempts to make this referendum about parenting.

Solidarity, not notional, uninformed idealism!!

smash · 05-05-2015 11:04AM

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

A casual observation: the No side are treating the YES side as a child stealing cult

Any debate where children become the hot topic will end badly. In an abortion debate the no side will call themselves "pro life" which infers that the pro choice side are anti life. In this debate the no side are classing themselves as "pro family" which infers that all yes campaigners are anti family.

hallo dare · 05-05-2015 11:06AM

I know that I'll get shot down for this by the YES brigade and I know it has nothing to do with the REF, but i'm only going on my own personal experience on this one. I'm not looking for any bitching or such.

Personally, I always found talking to my Mam about any difficulties I was having alot easier than talking to my Dad. Not that there was anything I needed to have feared in talking to him. It was just easier.

With my Dad, I always found it easier to quiz him on stuff I was interested in and go for a few pints at the weekend and stuff. To bring me fishing and shooting. Who thought me Construction, engines, mechanics, etc.

I'm not explaining it very well, and I know you will say that two Mams or two Dads can do all these things, maybe they can, but I just believe it's easier on a child to have a Mam and a Dad. I know it was for me anyway. Two different genders for possibly a multitude of different questions a little mind will always need answered.

Even now, I'm a Dad with 3 yound kids. There is stuff they tell me and stuff they tell their Mam. Again, I'm sure this can be done in a same sex marriage, but different genders for different situations sometimes helps.

Don't go mental.

SpaceTime · 05-05-2015 11:07AM

irishfeen wrote: »

"Marriage may be contracted in accordance with law by two persons without distinction as to their sex"

To be fair to the government they have worded the proposed ammendment very well. Simple and effective.

I think they're going to have to hammer that home. It's not a very complex amendment and it says absolutely nothing about any of the other subjects bring brought up.

Nor will it have any impact on religious marriage ceremonies. Churches and religious communities already exclude people from marrying in their venues - people not from their group, divorcees etc... If they don't want to offer same sex marriage, it'll make no difference to them.

This is about a CIVIL right to CIVIL marriage ... Nothing to do with sacraments or religious belief.

SpaceTime · 05-05-2015 11:10AM

hallo dare wrote: »

I know that I'll get shot down for this by the YES brigade and I know it has nothing to do with the REF, but i'm only going on my own personal experience on this one. I'm not looking for any bitching or such.

Personally, I always found talking to my Mam about any difficulties I was having alot easier than talking to my Dad. Not that there was anything I needed to have feared in talking to him. It was just easier.

With my Dad, I always found it easier to quiz him on stuff I was interested in and go for a few pints at the weekend and stuff. To bring me fishing and shooting. Who thought me Construction, engines, mechanics, etc.

I'm not explaining it very well, and I know you will say that two Mams or two Dads can do all these things, maybe they can, but I just believe it's easier on a child to have a Mam and a Dad. I know it was for me anyway. Two different genders for possibly a multitude of different questions a little mind will always need answered.

Even now, I'm a Dad with 3 yound kids. There is stuff they tell me and stuff they tell their Mam. Again, I'm sure this can be done in a same sex marriage, but different genders for different situations sometimes helps.

Don't go mental.

That's pretty subjective and about personalities though.
I know plenty of mams that are the last person you'd talk to as they are totally judgemental and fly off the handle.
I also know families where the dad was a complete dote and the mom was a disciplinarian who could rival a military dictator!

Different parents are different! I'm not so sure about every mam being easier to talk to than every dad. That's just how it worked in your household.

timetogo · 05-05-2015 11:12AM

hallo dare wrote: »

I know that I'll get shot down for this by the YES brigade and I know it has nothing to do with the REF, but i'm only going on my own personal experience on this one. I'm not looking for any bitching or such.

Personally, I always found talking to my Mam about any difficulties I was having alot easier than talking to my Dad. Not that there was anything I needed to have feared in talking to him. It was just easier.

Absolutely the same experience for me. But I think that was less of a gender thing than a sign of the times thing. When I was a kid my dad went out to work while my mam was a housewife. My dad came home tired and spent less time with us so we were more distant.

I'm sure you can see kids these days seem to have better relationships with their fathers than 30 or 40 years ago. They will still favour one over the other I'm sure but dads are much more involved with their kids lives these days.

And as you say, nothing to do with the referendum.

SireOfSeth · 05-05-2015 11:14AM

hallo dare wrote: »

I know that I'll get shot down for this by the YES brigade and I know it has nothing to do with the REF, but i'm only going on my own personal experience on this one. I'm not looking for any bitching or such.

Personally, I always found talking to my Mam about any difficulties I was having alot easier than talking to my Dad. Not that there was anything I needed to have feared in talking to him. It was just easier.

With my Dad, I always found it easier to quiz him on stuff I was interested in and go for a few pints at the weekend and stuff. To bring me fishing and shooting. Who thought me Construction, engines, mechanics, etc.

I'm not explaining it very well, and I know you will say that two Mams or two Dads can do all these things, maybe they can, but I just believe it's easier on a child to have a Mam and a Dad. I know it was for me anyway. Two different genders for possibly a multitude of different questions a little mind will always need answered.

Even now, I'm a Dad with 3 yound kids. There is stuff they tell me and stuff they tell their Mam. Again, I'm sure this can be done in a same sex marriage, but different genders for different situations sometimes helps.

Don't go mental.

Sounds like you grew up in a loving environment - which is the most important thing. (Obviously, not that any of that matters from the Ref point-of-view - as it only has to do with marriage, as opposed to children.)

Grayditch · 05-05-2015 11:14AM

hallo dare wrote: »

Don't go mental.

Your posts reads like you haven't been reading/researching anything further than the "Children deserve..." posters. Even try the last page of this thread.

Shrap · 05-05-2015 11:14AM

hallo dare wrote: »

I know that I'll get shot down for this by the YES brigade and I know it has nothing to do with the REF, but i'm only going on my own personal experience on this one. I'm not looking for any bitching or such.

Personally, I always found talking to my Mam about any difficulties I was having alot easier than talking to my Dad. Not that there was anything I needed to have feared in talking to him. It was just easier.

With my Dad, I always found it easier to quiz him on stuff I was interested in and go for a few pints at the weekend and stuff. To bring me fishing and shooting. Who thought me Construction, engines, mechanics, etc.

I'm not explaining it very well, and I know you will say that two Mams or two Dads can do all these things, maybe they can, but I just believe it's easier on a child to have a Mam and a Dad. I know it was for me anyway. Two different genders for possibly a multitude of different questions a little mind will always need answered.

Even now, I'm a Dad with 3 yound kids. There is stuff they tell me and stuff they tell their Mam. Again, I'm sure this can be done in a same sex marriage, but different genders for different situations sometimes helps.

Don't go mental.

Not going mental at all, but I've underlined what jumped out at me - your personal experience can't be applied to others. The existing children of same sex couples will not feel the same way as you. There may indeed be one parent who is more of the nurturing and emotionally available type, and the other may be the complimentary type who does the spontaneous DIY stuff and brings kids to football, etc.

These attributes are in no way linked to gender. In my relationship (hetero), I am the one with the power tools, the tractor and the DIY skills, whereas my boyfriend is the awesome cook and (although he is not my kid's father) the patient listener. If you asked my kids to write the comment you just made, they'd have it the other way round.

05-05-2015 11:19AM

hallo dare wrote: »

Personally, I always found talking to my Mam about any difficulties I was having alot easier than talking to my Dad. Not that there was anything I needed to have feared in talking to him. It was just easier.

I do not think you will be shot down too badly for your opinion. I think people are more tired of having this topic derailed into children - because it has been a tactic of the no side to use that red herring. The referendum has essentially nothing to do with that.

It is not that we do not want to have this discussion however. Start another thread on homosexual parenting or single parenting and we will discuss it happily and with gusto. Time and a place as they say!

That said the type of anecdote you offer above is very common in the discussion of same sex parenting. But it has nothing to do with the sex of your parent. It has to do with the fact that when you have more than one parent - they are likely different people and characters. And many children do gravitate towards one parent or the other on different issues. This is very natural.

And where you found your mother easier to approach - other kids would be the opposite. It has _nothing_ to do with what sex your parents are generally and even with same sex parenting the children might find one parent easier to approach on certain issues than the other.

hallo dare wrote: »

I'm not explaining it very well, and I know you will say that two Mams or two Dads can do all these things, maybe they can, but I just believe it's easier on a child to have a Mam and a Dad. I know it was for me anyway.

You are not explaining it well - but not that badly either. I have seen and heard MUCH worse. But I doubt there is anyone who is not getting the point you want to make. The problem is the point itself is a personal anecdote - what you found "easier" - which you are exploding into an assumption and generalisation that is itself groundless.

Further claiming it was easier is likely something you have no grounding for either. Because you only knew one configuration. So how do you know it was "easier" for you if you never had the alternatives?

I think what would make it "easier" is having a diversity of characters in your parents. The differences between them bring strength to the relationship and the family every bit as much as the commonalities. But their sex - the content of their underpants - has little to do with this. Yet that is what you appear to be hanging it off (no pun intended).

The genders have little to do with the capability of answering the "little minds questions". I am the M in an MFF relationship and we have two kids with two more planned for the future.

The older of our kids is a 4.5 year old girl. And already there are things she will approach one of us with and not the others. Even between the two mammies. That shows it has little to do with gender - as they are both female so if was to do with gender why the distinction in her mind already - and that it has everything to do with personalities and the relationships a child has with each parent.

hallo dare wrote: »

Don't go mental.

I trust you found my response fair, civil, and not at all fitting with your expectations of fire and brimestone. I would repeat one point I just made though - that it would be worth exploring why you think you "found it easier" when you never actually experienced the alternative. And maybe a lot of the rest of what you have written will unravel itself from there when you unpack why you phrased it quite like that.

jobbridge4life · 05-05-2015 11:21AM

hallo dare wrote: »

I know that I'll get shot down for this by the YES brigade and I know it has nothing to do with the REF, but i'm only going on my own personal experience on this one. I'm not looking for any bitching or such.

Personally, I always found talking to my Mam about any difficulties I was having alot easier than talking to my Dad. Not that there was anything I needed to have feared in talking to him. It was just easier.

With my Dad, I always found it easier to quiz him on stuff I was interested in and go for a few pints at the weekend and stuff. To bring me fishing and shooting. Who thought me Construction, engines, mechanics, etc.

I'm not explaining it very well, and I know you will say that two Mams or two Dads can do all these things, maybe they can, but I just believe it's easier on a child to have a Mam and a Dad. I know it was for me anyway. Two different genders for possibly a multitude of different questions a little mind will always need answered.

Even now, I'm a Dad with 3 yound kids. There is stuff they tell me and stuff they tell their Mam. Again, I'm sure this can be done in a same sex marriage, but different genders for different situations sometimes helps.

Don't go mental.

The referendum will have no affect on gay couples capacity to become parents under the law. This has already been dealt with in separate legislation. Please vote yes so that if one of your children happens to be gay they can grow up knowing their Father loved them equally and wanted all the same for them as he did for his other children.

SpaceTime · 05-05-2015 11:23AM

My personal experience: my "go to person" as a kid was was my grandad!

He could solve any problem I ever had and I could tell him anything / discuss anything.

Yeah mams are great but, I think it's underestimating dads and grandparents!

Not that this has anything to do with the referendum but I think some posters are extrapolating their family to everyone else's family.

Same sex patents already exist and have legal rights. This doesn't change that.

Maximus Alexander · 05-05-2015 11:25AM

SpaceTime wrote: »

I also know families where the dad was a complete dote and the mom was a disciplinarian who could rival a military dictator!

Yep, thems were my parents.

Kiwi in IE · 05-05-2015 11:29AM

hallo dare wrote: »

I know that I'll get shot down for this by the YES brigade and I know it has nothing to do with the REF, but i'm only going on my own personal experience on this one. I'm not looking for any bitching or such.

Personally, I always found talking to my Mam about any difficulties I was having alot easier than talking to my Dad. Not that there was anything I needed to have feared in talking to him. It was just easier.

With my Dad, I always found it easier to quiz him on stuff I was interested in and go for a few pints at the weekend and stuff. To bring me fishing and shooting. Who thought me Construction, engines, mechanics, etc.

I'm not explaining it very well, and I know you will say that two Mams or two Dads can do all these things, maybe they can, but I just believe it's easier on a child to have a Mam and a Dad. I know it was for me anyway. Two different genders for possibly a multitude of different questions a little mind will always need answered.

Even now, I'm a Dad with 3 yound kids. There is stuff they tell me and stuff they tell their Mam. Again, I'm sure this can be done in a same sex marriage, but different genders for different situations sometimes helps.

Don't go mental.

Do you think that the issues that you raise here could be to do with the personality mixes of the parents/children and how they relate to each other, rather than anything to do with the gender of the parents?

Magenta · 05-05-2015 11:29AM

Magenta wrote: »

Fred and Rose West would be delighted with your compliment I'm sure.

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

That's different, because it is, what do you mean 'evidence'? STOP OPPRESSING MY OPINION!

What?!

Shrap · 05-05-2015 11:29AM

SpaceTime wrote: »

My personal experience: my "go to person" as a kid was was my grandad!

Now I think about it, my Dad was and still is my "go to" person, which is probably how I know so much about DIY! It is an unfortunate legacy in my family that the women folk (going back 3 generations) are emotionally unavailable. Glad my Dad took up those reins so I didn't turn out quite the same way as my distant and messy female relations!

Edit: Still though, as tax said, this is a topic for a different thread because parenting has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE REFERENDUM.

MrWalsh · 05-05-2015 11:32AM

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Do you think that the issues that you raise here could be to do with the personality mixes of the parents/children and how they relate to each other, rather than anything to do with the gender of the parents?

And not only that, but right up until the 70s women had to leave their job if they were civil servants, but it was common in all jobs for women to quit after marriage - so kids tended to know their mammies better simply because they spent more time with them.

Thats going to be a big change for future generations seeing as these days many families have to have both parents working or they couldnt pay the mortgage!!

Bannasidhe · 05-05-2015 11:34AM

hallo dare wrote: »

I know that I'll get shot down for this by the YES brigade and I know it has nothing to do with the REF, but i'm only going on my own personal experience on this one. I'm not looking for any bitching or such.

Personally, I always found talking to my Mam about any difficulties I was having alot easier than talking to my Dad. Not that there was anything I needed to have feared in talking to him. It was just easier.

With my Dad, I always found it easier to quiz him on stuff I was interested in and go for a few pints at the weekend and stuff. To bring me fishing and shooting. Who thought me Construction, engines, mechanics, etc.

I'm not explaining it very well, and I know you will say that two Mams or two Dads can do all these things, maybe they can, but I just believe it's easier on a child to have a Mam and a Dad. I know it was for me anyway. Two different genders for possibly a multitude of different questions a little mind will always need answered.

Even now, I'm a Dad with 3 yound kids. There is stuff they tell me and stuff they tell their Mam. Again, I'm sure this can be done in a same sex marriage, but different genders for different situations sometimes helps.

Don't go mental.

Personally if I wanted to know any thing I asked my grandmother.

My mother taught me how to fix a puncture on a bike - her father taught her. He also taught her how to knit. I never got the hang of knitting. My brother was quite good at it.
My Dad taught me how to bake. I can do that. I used to bake fancy bread which was sold in the Old English Market in Cork. My brother can't bake to save his life. He can cook.

I taught my son how to cook, iron, put up shelves, check the oil in a car, fix punctures, basic First Aid, archery and gave him a life long appreciation of art.
His Other Mother taught him how to read, took him hiking, showed him how to construct a Den, fish, herd sheep and gave him a life long appreciation of poetry.

I was the main 'disciplinarian' but all she had to do was say 'I'm very disappointed' and he crumbled. Still works dammit and he's 30. I, however, can silence him with a look. The same look I used to get. The same look he gives his children.... and me on occasion...

To say all men have x skills and all women have y skills is to reduce both genders down to little more than automatons. We are far far more than that.

No parent is perfect. There is no manual - you know that with three of them!
Are all three of your children the same? Do they have the same skills/interests?
No. They have their own strengths and weaknesses - just like parents of all genders and combinations.

I don't know why you think you would get shot down tbh. You will get disagreed with (in a 'not how it was for me' way) because you gave your life experiences and naturally other people have different life experiences. A lot of straight married couples would also disagree with you as their life experiences would also differ...

SpaceTime · 05-05-2015 11:40AM

The parenting argument being thrown out by the no side is actually nonsense because you've already got same-gender parents both in terms of gay couples and also de facto setups like families being raised by say an older brother and an uncle (I know a family of ten who were raised like that in the 50s and they're all great!)

This isn't s referendum on parenting !

smash · 05-05-2015 11:43AM

SpaceTime wrote: »

The parenting argument being thrown out by the no side is actually nonsense because you've already got same-gender parents both in terms of gay couples and also de facto setups like families being raised by say an older brother and an uncle (I know a family of ten who were raised like that in the 50s and they're all great!)

This isn't s referendum on parenting !

But if they don't have an argument which revolves around an archaic view of parenting then they have no argument. Most people with an ounce of intelligence can see through it.

SpaceTime · 05-05-2015 11:45AM

Also on adoption and suragacy - these aren't anything unique to gay couples and regulation of adoptive rights is needed in general in Ireland.

Ironically, it's been the religious here who have been responsible for cutting off parents from their offspring and who have hidden records and refused to provide information when people looked for their birth mother.

Also because of extreme conservatism many biological fathers were completely hidden away and some people may simply never know who their dad is!

That all happened thanks to religious conservatism, church organisations and a paranoia about "illegitimate" children and single parents.

So if you want to fix adoptive rights there's a good place to start. Gay marriage has nothing whatsoever to do with it!!

smash · 05-05-2015 11:51AM

SpaceTime wrote: »

That all happened thanks to religious conservatism, church organisations and a paranoia about "illegitimate" children and single parents.

And now to top it all off they're trying to hold the country to ransom by threatening to discontinue performing full weddings.

the Catholic Primate and Archbishop of Armagh Eamon Martin said the Church would have to consider whether or not it would continue to perform the civil part of wedding ceremonies in the event of a change following the upcoming marriage referendum on 22 May

In my opinion they should be left to it and we can watch them crumble away.

How will you vote in the Marriage Equality referendum? Mod Note Post 1

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