How will you vote in the Marriage Equality referendum? Mod Note Post 1

Zen65 · 02-05-2015 02:07PM

mikemac1 wrote: »

There is nothing in Article 41 preventing SSM. So why didn't they just introduce legislation

There are two reasons why our politicians needed a referendum:

(1) Firstly our Supreme Court issued a ruling to say that the reference to 'marriage' in the Constitution can only have been intended in its time to refer to heterosexual marriage, since SSM was a concept that was unknown.

(2) Secondly - and this is just my opinion - our political leaders were of the view that if they introduced SSM without a ballot of all citizens then this would be used by the conservative right against them at the time of the next election. FF, SF and others support the referendum because it is being put to the popular vote and so setting themselves against it would probably back-fire, but if the vote had simply been to introduce legislation through normal Dáil business then I'm not so sure they would have supported it.

househero · 02-05-2015 02:14PM

Are any gay people voting no?

lazygal · 02-05-2015 02:16PM

househero wrote: »

Are any gay people voting no?

Paddy and Keith.

Bannasidhe · 02-05-2015 02:17PM

househero wrote: »

Are any gay people voting no?

Paddy and Keith and if an email Rabble have shared from Keith is kosher there is Peter too.

Dimithy · 02-05-2015 02:22PM

Deleted User wrote: »

dont have the energy to continue this .... there's more important things in life and I'm kinda tired of the non stop debate.

Perhaps its not important to you because you dont have to ask permission from millions of strangers if you want to get married?

lazygal · 02-05-2015 02:23PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Paddy and Keith and if an email Rabble have shared from Keith is kosher there is Peter too.

It's like new set of disciples.

MRnotlob606 · 02-05-2015 02:26PM

I do not know which way to vote to be quite honest.

smash · 02-05-2015 02:27PM

MRnotlob606 wrote: »

I do not know which way to vote to be quite honest.

Well it's vote for equality to move society forward. Or stay in the dark ages. It's up to you.

ScumLord · 02-05-2015 02:38PM

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Are we talking about children or teenager's. Parents are usually , nearly always the center of any childs life. Who else will wipe your arse and spoon feed ya.

Granny, Aunts, uncles, brothers and sisters, neighbours, child care. Most people have no problem doing any of that stuff, bar maybe changing nappies. Kid's look to other kids and TV for role models. Parents would probably love if their kids saw them as the centre of their universe but it's rarely the case. If anything a kid doesn't fully appreciate their parents until they're grown and understand the hardships and responsibilities of being a parent themselves.

El_Duderino 09 · 02-05-2015 02:42PM

househero wrote: »

Are any gay people voting no?

There was a gay fella on the late late last night who's voting no because marriage is about having children. He didn't agree that infertile couples should be banned from getting married so it wasn't a consistent argument.

SpaceTime · 02-05-2015 02:53PM

That's because when push comes to shove, the no argument all comes down to being uncomfortable with the idea of homosexuality at all.

It can never be a consistent argument because they're looking for narrow reasons to argue against something. They're always constructed arguments and they'll always have flaws and weaknesses.

The yes side is just presenting an honest human rights based argument. That's not going to have inconsistencies.

The reality is that a % of *us* are gay. That's nothing new. You can embrace it and be realistic or get uncomfortable about it and pretend it's not there because of dogmatic belief systems and cultural homophobia that was injected into society over the centuries.

If you're not gay or bi yourself, you undoubtably are related to someone who is or you could have a son or daughter who will be. You may well have gay friends and don't know it too.

I'd much rather meet their partners, be part of their life than pretend they don't exist.

I'm all for just being realistic, accepting that Ireland and humans in general are quite a bit gay and just getting on with it!

EuropeanSon · 02-05-2015 03:00PM

I hate the "I am entitled to my opinion" loons.

That phrase doesn't mean anyone has to respect your opinion, or that people aren't allowed to tell you how stupid your opinion is, and yet people try to use it as a way of defending their position.

I am entitled to be of the opinion that the world is probably flat, but it doesn't mean people cannot tell me I'm an idiot for believing it.

WoolyJumper · 02-05-2015 03:26PM

MRnotlob606 wrote: »

I do not know which way to vote to be quite honest.

What are your concerns? If you have genuine questions or worries people here will happily talk about them with you.

WoolyJumper · 02-05-2015 03:27PM

EuropeanSon wrote: »

I hate the "I am entitled to my opinion" loons.

That phrase doesn't mean anyone has to respect your opinion, or that people aren't allowed to tell you how stupid your opinion is, and yet people try to use it as a way of defending their position.

I am entitled to be of the opinion that the world is probably flat, but it doesn't mean people cannot tell me I'm an idiot for believing it.

"stop having an opinion on my opinion, it's undemocratic!"

bb1234567 · 02-05-2015 03:33PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Soooo.... there is NO comparison between the Civil Rights Movement and Marriage Equality you say.... hummmmmm...

good lord if you replaced the word SSM with mixed race marriage in many anti SSM's rants it would sound almost exactly like that

bb1234567 · 02-05-2015 03:34PM

househero wrote: »

Are any gay people voting no?

A gay man on the late late show debate is voting no. It was quite an interesting debate, the two NO side debaters actually were very reasonable and the straight women seemed like a very lovely person despite being against SSM. It was a very good debate Id recommend watching it on RTE player.

Stinicker · 02-05-2015 03:36PM

I had originally decided to vote No but I have recently changed my mind and am now voting Yes. I had several reservations about the referendum and I still do but what really swung it for me was a long conversation I just happened to have with a person who is campaigning for a Yes vote, also another fact is the majority of the Fianna Fail voting bloc is Anti Gay Marriage so it will be sweet to see another electoral blow landed upon this traitorous demographic element of society.

My Religious considerations also play a big part in this, and despite many Religious leaders stating the opposite I think it is the compassionate thing to do, I believe in a loving and a forgiving god and that god loves all his children whether they are Gay or Straight. Yes being gay is a sin but so is sex outside of marriage with a woman so I think those without sin can cast the first stone and it is about equality also. I am both a very right wing and left wing person and having considered all the arguments and feel that I should vote Yes.

I will vote No to lowering the Presidential age limit however.

marienbad · 02-05-2015 03:45PM

Stinicker wrote: »

I had originally decided to vote No but I have recently changed my mind and am now voting Yes. I had several reservations about the referendum and I still do but what really swung it for me was a long conversation I just happened to have with a person who is campaigning for a Yes vote, also another fact is the majority of the Fianna Fail voting bloc is Anti Gay Marriage so it will be sweet to see another electoral blow landed upon this traitorous demographic element of society.

My Religious considerations also play a big part in this, and despite many Religious leaders stating the opposite I think it is the compassionate thing to do, I believe in a loving and a forgiving god and that god loves all his children whether they are Gay or Straight. Yes being gay is a sin but so is sex outside of marriage with a woman so I think those without sin can cast the first stone and it is about equality also. I am both a very right wing and left wing person and having considered all the arguments and feel that I should vote Yes.

I will vote No to lowering the Presidential age limit however.

Great post , I wish all voters , both yes and no were as thoughtful . just fantastic to read after so much insult and invective . Thank you

mikemac1 · 02-05-2015 04:02PM

Zen65 wrote: »

(1) Firstly our Supreme Court issued a ruling to say that the reference to 'marriage' in the Constitution can only have been intended in its time to refer to heterosexual marriage, since SSM was a concept that was unknown.

That makes sense and the supreme court judges looked at the world back in the 1930's

Grand so, seems a referendum was the way to go

El_Duderino 09 · 02-05-2015 04:10PM

bb1234567 wrote: »

A gay man on the late late show debate is voting no. It was quite an interesting debate, the two NO side debaters actually were very reasonable and the straight women seemed like a very lovely person despite being against SSM. It was a very good debate Id recommend watching it on RTE player.

Yeah both of the 'no' side looked toilet trained at least. I could follow their argument alright one was saying this isn't about equality because gays are already equal and this is just an over correction for the discrimination which ended in the 70.

The woman was more about how there have to be a man and a woman to be a family which is ironic because she was a single mother which means she is already raisingher children with single sex parenting. So she is falling short of her own standard.

They both harped on about the constitution and how it states that family is the cornerstone of society and the purpose of marriage is to beget children. I got the point buy what I couldn't understand is why they were so married to the constitution. Why would we assume the constitution was divinely inspired and never needs to change? If the constitution doesn't recognise the value of co-dependand couples and won't allow them to marry, then change the constitution!

shooterjay · 02-05-2015 04:11PM

im a 30ish yr old male. i never understood homosexuality, but this vote made me think. i have to admit i am somewhat of a homophobic, i have and still do make gay jokes. i can tend to be a complete asshole as my long suffering wife will attest. i have one gay friend, who i never speak to anymore, not caus hes gay, caus he moved away, i prob should make more of an effort but so should he, i just assumed he was happy living his new gay life. i would have like to discuss this with him actually.
so, im gonna vote yes. why ? well i might be a an asshole, but we live in a free country, so if im free to be an asshole then they should be free to be gay and marry who ever the funk they want. t he fact that my formally "normal" friend is now in doneygall sleeping with another man, hasnt made one bit of difference to my life has made me see it would be stupid to vote no, there are plenty of other ways i can continue to be a asshole in everyday life.

Santa Cruz · 02-05-2015 04:37PM

The aggressive behaviour of some of the Yes supporters e.g. tearing down No posters, attacking anyone with an opposing view etc. are putting off a lot of the soft Yes voters. I dont trust the polls as it seems to be unpopular to give the view that you might vote No so people wont tell the truth to the pollsters

Santa Cruz · 02-05-2015 04:39PM

WoolyJumper wrote: »

"stop having an opinion on my opinion, it's undemocratic!"

Down with free speech and that type of thing

efb · 02-05-2015 04:41PM

Stinicker wrote: »

I had originally decided to vote No but I have recently changed my mind and am now voting Yes. I had several reservations about the referendum and I still do but what really swung it for me was a long conversation I just happened to have with a person who is campaigning for a Yes vote, also another fact is the majority of the Fianna Fail voting bloc is Anti Gay Marriage so it will be sweet to see another electoral blow landed upon this traitorous demographic element of society.

My Religious considerations also play a big part in this, and despite many Religious leaders stating the opposite I think it is the compassionate thing to do, I believe in a loving and a forgiving god and that god loves all his children whether they are Gay or Straight. Yes being gay is a sin but so is sex outside of marriage with a woman so I think those without sin can cast the first stone and it is about equality also. I am both a very right wing and left wing person and having considered all the arguments and feel that I should vote Yes.

I will vote No to lowering the Presidential age limit however.

Cheers.

Anita Blow · 02-05-2015 04:42PM

shooterjay wrote: »

im a 30ish yr old male. i never understood homosexuality, but this vote made me think. i have to admit i am somewhat of a homophobic, i have and still do make gay jokes. i can tend to be a complete asshole as my long suffering wife will attest. i have one gay friend, who i never speak to anymore, not caus hes gay, caus he moved away, i prob should make more of an effort but so should he, i just assumed he was happy living his new gay life. i would have like to discuss this with him actually.
so, im gonna vote yes. why ? well i might be a an asshole, but we live in a free country, so if im free to be an asshole then they should be free to be gay and marry who ever the funk they want. t he fact that my formally "normal" friend is now in doneygall sleeping with another man, hasnt made one bit of difference to my life has made me see it would be stupid to vote no, there are plenty of other ways i can continue to be a asshole in everyday life.

This is a complete aside to the whole debate thing but as a gay guy I can tell you that making gay jokes doesn't make you a homophobe in the slightest, especially after you've come across so reasoned about ultimately coming to vote yes.

I'm the only gay lad in my group of friends who are all proper lads and I get it ripped out of me all the time for being gay, just like we rip it out of one of the other lads for being ginger, or another for his accent etc. etc. These very same lads have all registered to vote for the very first time and are liking every Yes page under the Sun on Facebook to show support for me.
It's just one of the aspects of us that make us who we are and open to just as much light-hearted slagging.

efb · 02-05-2015 04:43PM

shooterjay wrote: »

im a 30ish yr old male. i never understood homosexuality, but this vote made me think. i have to admit i am somewhat of a homophobic, i have and still do make gay jokes. i can tend to be a complete asshole as my long suffering wife will attest. i have one gay friend, who i never speak to anymore, not caus hes gay, caus he moved away, i prob should make more of an effort but so should he, i just assumed he was happy living his new gay life. i would have like to discuss this with him actually.
so, im gonna vote yes. why ? well i might be a an asshole, but we live in a free country, so if im free to be an asshole then they should be free to be gay and marry who ever the funk they want. t he fact that my formally "normal" friend is now in doneygall sleeping with another man, hasnt made one bit of difference to my life has made me see it would be stupid to vote no, there are plenty of other ways i can continue to be a asshole in everyday life.

You don't have to be friends with us but seeing us as entitled to the same freedoms is very appreciated

Santa Cruz · 02-05-2015 04:46PM

efb wrote: »

You don't have to be friends with us but seeing us as entitled to the same freedoms is very appreciated

Agreed. Why should 'straight' men be the only ones to suffer.

p.s. Good luck with the "I'm only going for a quick pint" line

El Weirdo · 02-05-2015 04:48PM

Santa Cruz wrote: »

The aggressive behaviour of some of the Yes supporters e.g. tearing down No posters, attacking anyone with an opposing view etc. are putting off a lot of the soft Yes voters. I dont trust the polls as it seems to be unpopular to give the view that you might vote No so people wont tell the truth to the pollsters

Oh no, the poor No voters. It must be awful to live in a country when, as a minority, you have to listen to people tell you that you're doing is wrong.

Anita Blow · 02-05-2015 04:50PM

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Down with free speech and that type of thing

I don't think it's anything to do with silencing free speech. I think the point being made is that the No campaign is largely based around red herrings and false premises. And when I say 'No campaign' I don't mean those who may vote No, I'm speaking about Mothers & Fathers Matter, Iona etc. who are deliberately bringing in unrelated topics which will not be affected by the debate in order to confuse people into voting no. What people find frustrating is that when such No campaigners are ultimately caught out, they fall back on playing the victim and saying 'Well it's my opinion'. Take last night for example, on the Late Late when Keith Mills & Petra spent the whole time speaking about how children would be affected, and then the ISPCC (representing 14 Irish children's charities) and an actual young woman brought up by 2 women spoke up against them, suddenly both of them turned around and stated that children in the debate was a 'red herring'. Similarly the other No campaigner saying he didn't care what children's charities & the evidence says, because this is how he feels. I can say 2 + 2 = 5 all I want, but it doesn't change the fact that 2 + 2 = 4. You're not entitled to your opinion, you're entitled to what you can argue for.

In those cases, it's perfectly legitimate to call them out on such anti-democratic attempts to confuse the electorate.

househero · 02-05-2015 05:01PM

SpaceTime wrote: »

That's because when push comes to shove, the no argument all comes down to being uncomfortable with the idea of homosexuality at all.

It can never be a consistent argument because they're looking for narrow reasons to argue against something. They're always constructed arguments and they'll always have flaws and weaknesses.

The yes side is just presenting an honest human rights based argument. That's not going to have inconsistencies.

The reality is that a % of *us* are gay. That's nothing new. You can embrace it and be realistic or get uncomfortable about it and pretend it's not there because of dogmatic belief systems and cultural homophobia that was injected into society over the centuries.

If you're not gay or bi yourself, you undoubtably are related to someone who is or you could have a son or daughter who will be. You may well have gay friends and don't know it too.

I'd much rather meet their partners, be part of their life than pretend they don't exist.

I'm not 100% comfortable with gay people. But I know gay people and family... Some got married to straight people to have families and then split up. I think that all people have a right to live their life without state discrimination or be forced in to what is seen as normal only to ruin peoples lives because of societies pressure an inequalities.

Im straight and i'm voting Yes. For freedom.

How will you vote in the Marriage Equality referendum? Mod Note Post 1

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