Public sector pay increase

KomradeBishop · 01-05-2015 04:56PM

jank wrote: »

Yet, your theories seem to be changing monthly. Remember the time when you wanted to burn tax revenue, or when you thought your pal in Greece, Varoufakis was going to be the saviour of Europe? Well as it turns out even his own government stopped listening to him. So many theories, so little reality.

"wanted to burn tax revenue"
That is a lie - quote that.

"when you thought your pal in Greece, Varoufakis was going to be the saviour of Europe"
That again is a lie, I never said Varoufakis would be the 'saviour of Europe'. There is almost zero chance of his policies ever being enacted within Europe - despite me thinking that if the EU did engage in his 'Modest Proposal', that it would bring recovery.

True to form jank, you only post lies/straw-men, about what other posters have said - so you can fling shít at them. That is exclusively your method of argument - and it forces me into replying to you, to rebut words being put in my mouth, when I'd rather just ignore you.

jcon1913 · 01-05-2015 05:14PM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

"wanted to burn tax revenue"
That is a lie - quote that.

"when you thought your pal in Greece, Varoufakis was going to be the saviour of Europe"
That again is a lie, I never said Varoufakis would be the 'saviour of Europe'. There is almost zero chance of his policies ever being enacted within Europe - despite me thinking that if the EU did engage in his 'Modest Proposal', that it would bring recovery.

True to form jank, you only post lies/straw-men, about what other posters have said - so you can fling shít at them. That is exclusively your method of argument - and it forces me into replying to you, to rebut words being put in my mouth, when I'd rather just ignore you.

Another high minded post KB as ever. Just look at the strip along the top of the screen - ''Social & fun > After Hours'' not ''Re-education centre 3248A''

Goodbye Komrade.

KomradeBishop · 01-05-2015 05:23PM

jcon1913 wrote: »

Another high minded post KB as ever. Just look at the strip along the top of the screen - ''Social & fun > After Hours'' not ''Re-education centre 3248A''

Goodbye Komrade.

Yes because lying about what someone has said to misrepresent them in a malignant way is 'Social & fun' - and After Hours has never been a place where any serious debate has happened :rolleyes:

jcon1913 · 01-05-2015 05:37PM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Yes because lying about what someone has said to misrepresent them in a malignant way is 'Social & fun' - and After Hours has never been a place where any serious debate has happened :rolleyes:

Well if I want a lecture I'll mosey over to the Economics forum- in the meanwhile if you read back over the posts many of them are helpful in suggesting that you , eh , lighten up. Komrade.

01-05-2015 05:44PM

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I have absolutely no idea what you are on about or what your friend is spinning you. At the very best privately paid teachers in fee paying schools are paid on a par with dept paid teachers (minus pension entitlements)... but from what I hear talking to other privately paid teachers, those days are coming to an end because labour is cheap and any teacher will take whatever contract is thrown at them. Privately paid teaching is an albatross that any sane teacher would do well to get away from.

Teachers in the fee paying and voluntary non fee paying all went to the same teacher training colleges. There are excellent teachers I know of who have written text books/revision books/oversee examiners for exams etc in the public system as well as the fee paying system system.

Maybe you are confusing things with private 'grind schools' which are a whole different kettle of fish all together. (I've worked in those too BTW and it's the same ding dong... (much the same pay/ no pension) most of the money is made through revision courses or extra grinds.

It's because they listen to idiots here or Eddie Hobbs and their Mammy who think "Ah shur anyone would want to be mad not to be a teacher".
Here's my story.
4 yrs in college. 1 year Hdip (it's been changed to 2 years self funded now). Masters of my own volition (self funded (with some tax relief though!). Postgrad on top.
10 years teaching... only got CID in the last 5.
=43k Gross

Pension system has now changed to career average instead of defined benefit so ignore what eddie hobbs says.

Don't get me wrong, the holidays are a definite perk and if you're a woman then mat leave is better than private sector.

Anyone who want's to become a teacher now should be prepared to be doing it as a part time hobby.

ANyhow's that's for a different thread.

Yes some teachers do extra work... some don't. Fee paying/privately paid or voluntary/public it doesn't matter which it is.

What do you think you should be getting paid then? 60K? 80K? 100K?

There is an entrenched greed in the public sector. Whatever they get paid will never be enough.

There's plenty of people in the private sector who would love to be paid more for less work as well, but know it's just not realistic . The difference is there is not the same level of bitching and moaning and threats to go on strike.

Generally speaking, people in the private sector are fairly content with what they've got and can live a good life within whatever means they have and can adapt according to circumstances .

Compare to the public/semistate sector workers who are constantly poor mouthing, inflexible and would literary screw their own neighbour to further their own means (like today with the bus strikes leaving people at the side of the road).

I would agree that there are some very low paid public sector workers who should see some increases to net pay and I'd also agree with a Dublin allowance for anyone living in Dublin due to the crazy cost of living there.

But to see someone poor mouthing on 43K gross is just incomprehensible to so many people ... what exactly do you want to be paid? Is it causing you to go hungry? How do you think people on half that manage to live ?

Will the public sector worker ever say enough, for the sake of the country and society as a whole? Or will it be me,me,me forever more? How can anyone stay sane working in such organizations, with the constant union bleating of how undermined we all are ?

It's baffling stuff.

jobbridge4life · 01-05-2015 05:45PM

salonfire wrote: »

What do you think you should be getting paid then? 60K? 80K? 100K?

There is an entrenched greed in the public sector. Whatever they get paid will never be enough.

There's plenty of people in the private sector who would love to be paid more for less work as well, but know it's just not realistic . The difference is there is not the same level of bitching and moaning and threats to go on strike.

Generally speaking, people in the private sector are fairly content with what they've got and can live a good life within whatever means they have and can adapt according to circumstances .

Compare to the public/semistate sector workers who are constantly poor mouthing, inflexible and would literary screw their own neighbour to further their own means (like today with the bus strikes leaving people at the side of the road).

I would agree that there are some very low paid public sector workers who should see some increases to net pay and I'd also agree with a Dublin allowance for anyone living in Dublin due to the crazy cost of living there.

But to see someone poor mouthing on 43K gross is just incomprehensible to so many people ... what exactly do you want to be paid? Is it causing you to go hungry? How do you think people on half that manage to live ?

Will the public sector worker ever say enough, for the sake of the country and society as a whole? Or will it be me,me,me forever more? How can anyone stay sane working in such organizations, with the constant union bleating of how undermined we all are ?

It's baffling stuff.

Virtually every single line of that is unsubstantiated generalisation or tired rhetoric.

The_Valeyard · 01-05-2015 05:46PM

salonfire wrote: »

What do you think you should be getting paid then? 60K? 80K? 100K?

There is an entrenched greed in the public sector. Whatever they get paid will never be enough.

There's plenty of people in the private sector who would love to be paid more for less work as well, but know it's just not realistic . The difference is there is not the same level of bitching and moaning and threats to go on strike.

Generally speaking, people in the private sector are fairly content with what they've got and can live a good life within whatever means they have and can adapt according to circumstances .

Compare to the public/semistate sector workers who are constantly poor mouthing, inflexible and would literary screw their own neighbour to further their own means (like today with the bus strikes leaving people at the side of the road).

I would agree that there are some very low paid public sector workers who should see some increases to net pay and I'd also agree with a Dublin allowance for anyone living in Dublin due to the crazy cost of living there.

But to see someone poor mouthing on 43K gross is just incomprehensible to so many people ... what exactly do you want to be paid? Is it causing you to go hungry? How do you think people on half that manage to live ?

Will the public sector worker ever say enough, for the sake of the country and society as a whole? Or will it be me,me,me forever more? How can anyone stay sane working in such organizations, with the constant union bleating of how undermined we all are ?

It's baffling stuff.

For a man complaining that the PS are nevery happy, you do not seem happy yourself

ardmacha · 01-05-2015 05:52PM

But to see someone poor mouthing on 43K gross is just incomprehensible to so many people ... what exactly do you want to be paid? Is it causing you to go hungry? How do you think people on half that manage to live ?

yes, no public servant should be paid more than the amount required not to go hungry, so what if they are brain surgeons or the like.
Good one.

01-05-2015 05:57PM

ardmacha wrote: »

yes, no public servant should be paid more than the amount required not to go hungry, so what if they are brain surgeons or the like.
Good one.

That's not my point at all. Just trying to understand why the need to highlight that teachers are 'only' paid 43K?

It is because of this gulf between the two sectors' cultures that causes threads such as these to flare up to such an extend every time with the mud slinging.

01-05-2015 08:14PM

salonfire wrote: »

What do you think you should be getting paid then? 60K? 80K? 100K?

With 5 years in college and 10 years teaching experience I would personally think a salary approaching 60k would be fair.

01-05-2015 08:50PM

Yara Old Backyard wrote: »

With 5 years in college and 10 years teaching experience I would personally think a salary approaching 60k would be fair.

Fair enough. What's that, around 3k net a month?

That's a 39% increase in gross. Then you'd want the Pension Levy removed as well I assume.

How exactly to you think this increased spending should be funded? By cutting back on services? Increases taxes?

Thing is though, that still wouldn't be enough. We had the story a couple of years ago of the Garda Sergent's family on 75K moaning that they were reduced to eating cornflakes for every meal.

No matter how much money is poured into the public service, either in services or payroll, it will never be enough.

evolving_doors · 01-05-2015 09:26PM

salonfire wrote: »

Fair enough. What's that, around 3k net a month?

That's a 39% increase in gross. Then you'd want the Pension Levy removed as well I assume.

How exactly to you think this increased spending should be funded? By cutting back on services? Increases taxes?

Thing is though, that still wouldn't be enough. We had the story a couple of years ago of the Garda Sergent's family on 75K moaning that they were reduced to eating cornflakes for every meal.

No matter how much money is poured into the public service, either in services or payroll, it will never be enough.

OK so, fair enough you don't think my experience and qualifications are worth 43k. The whole point of my post wasn't to give the poor mouth, but to show I had what I considered a decent level of quals and experience so didn't deserve to be villified just because I was supposedly a professional working in the public service.

May I ask what your own job/qualifications are?

ardmacha · 01-05-2015 09:32PM

salonfire wrote: »

Thing is though, that still wouldn't be enough. We had the story a couple of years ago of the Garda Sergent's family on 75K moaning that they were reduced to eating cornflakes for every meal.

No matter how much money is poured into the public service, either in services or payroll, it will never be enough.

No doubt among some of the 280,000 public servants there will be some who feel they should get more.

However, teachers have suggested teachers in Ireland earn a smaller proportion of the typical graduate salary than other countries.

Bristolscale7 · 01-05-2015 09:54PM

Like my daddy used to say, the three best reasons to be a teacher are June, July, and August...

01-05-2015 10:43PM

Gebgbegb wrote: »

OK so, fair enough you don't think my experience and qualifications are worth 43k. The whole point of my post wasn't to give the poor mouth, but to show I had what I considered a decent level of quals and experience so didn't deserve to be villified just because I was supposedly a professional working in the public service.

May I ask what your own job/qualifications are?

I didn't say I thought you weren't worth that.
If you are a good teacher, then you are worth every penny of that.

My point is: despite being on a not too shabby a salary (ok, it's not going to set the world on fire), yet you still demand more. You will be getting more anyway with increments, but as soon as the economy begins to turn, then out comes the public service unions demanding more. To hell with anything else.

I'm in IT and in the mid 30s range + bonus/stock option/healthcare.

Would I like more? Of course I would. But then again I'm content with what I have currently.

- living in one of the cheapest parts of the country
- flexible working hours/arrangements
- I know that a larger gross salary does not mean a correspondingly larger increase in net pay (that 40% tax rate)

Imagine the kind of country we'd have if we all had the same mindset has the public sector of intransigence, threats and demands. Who would ever invest here? The country would be a basket case.

barneystinson · 01-05-2015 10:45PM

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

Like my daddy used to say, the three best reasons to be a teacher are June, July, and August...

3 worst would be Obnoxious Little Cûnts...

evolving_doors · 01-05-2015 11:03PM

salonfire wrote: »

I didn't say I thought you weren't worth that.
If you are a good teacher, then you are worth every penny of that.

My point is: despite being on a not too shabby a salary (ok, it's not going to set the world on fire), yet you still demand more. You will be getting more anyway with increments, but as soon as the economy begins to turn, then out comes the public service unions demanding more. To hell with anything else.

I'm in IT and in the mid 30s range + bonus/stock option/healthcare.

Would I like more? Of course I would. But then again I'm content with what I have currently.

- living in one of the cheapest parts of the country
- flexible working hours/arrangements
- I know that a larger gross salary does not mean a correspondingly larger increase in net pay (that 40% tax rate)

Imagine the kind of country we'd have if we all had the same mindset has the public sector of intransigence, threats and demands. Who would ever invest here? The country would be a basket case.

You see this is what I don't get. I took a pay cut, freeze on increment, degradation in conditions, unpaid extra on-call hours,extra hours 'planning' (but funnily enough not allowed to teach those extra hours... just attend BS makey uppey meetings). All other regular meetings about students/exams/subject development take place every day during lunch time (between voluntary extra curricular).

all under the agreement that there would be a restoration of pay when things improved .... NOT a pay rise.

Ive upheld my part... all these crazy working conditions will never be gotten rid of but ill carry on. I just think that fair is fair!

edit: Sorry I missed where you stated your gross pay and qualifications.
Seems only fair seeing as my families bread and butter is dissected on a daily basis as if I dont deserve it (or god forbid MORE in the future).

Iwasfrozen · 02-05-2015 02:56AM

Gebgbegb wrote: »

You see this is what I don't get. I took a pay cut, freeze on increment, degradation in conditions, unpaid extra on-call hours,extra hours 'planning' (but funnily enough not allowed to teach those extra hours... just attend BS makey uppey meetings). All other regular meetings about students/exams/subject development take place every day during lunch time (between voluntary extra curricular).

all under the agreement that there would be a restoration of pay when things improved .... NOT a pay rise.

Ive upheld my part... all these crazy working conditions will never be gotten rid of but ill carry on. I just think that fair is fair!

edit: Sorry I missed where you stated your gross pay and qualifications.
Seems only fair seeing as my families bread and butter is dissected on a daily basis as if I dont deserve it (or god forbid MORE in the future).

This is the important part, thing's haven't improved. We're still in deficit, which means we're still borrowing to run the country and you want a pay increase. Seriously?

Yara Old Backyard wrote: »

With 5 years in college and 10 years teaching experience I would personally think a salary approaching 60k would be fair.

That's crazy talk.

evolving_doors · 02-05-2015 08:27AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

This is the important part, thing's haven't improved. We're still in deficit, which means we're still borrowing to run the country and you want a pay increase. Seriously?

That's crazy talk.

Ok thats your position. Out of interest whats your own gross pay and qualifications?I won't badger you if you dont want to answer.

In terms of the next budget would you be in favour of raising tax levels/USC to get the country out if debt?

02-05-2015 11:24AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That's crazy talk.

What's crazy about it? Plenty of degree graduates in private industry would be on that and more with similar or even less years on the job and wouldn't have the responsibility of educating the next generation.

evolving_doors · 02-05-2015 11:57AM

Yara Old Backyard wrote: »

What's crazy about it? Plenty of degree graduates in private industry would be on that and more with similar or even less years on the job and wouldn't have the responsibility of educating the next generation.

True, Id also be interested to know what the hourly rate for just babysitting 20-30 'odd' teenagers is... nevermind throwing in a bit of education. Public service has to have a price. But for some the price is ALWAYS too much (untill maybr when they find they or their children is looking to avail of that service).

The previous poster stated earlier that between 30 and 50k should be sufficient.. however, when I mention I'm getting in the middle of this and looking for pay restoration (and willing to keep on all the extra work practices ) there's coffee sputtered all over their screen.
Let them eat cake, comes to mind.

Iwasfrozen · 02-05-2015 01:52PM

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Ok thats your position. Out of interest whats your own gross pay and qualifications?I won't badger you if you dont want to answer.

In terms of the next budget would you be in favour of raising tax levels/USC to get the country out if debt?

I'd rather not say what I make because if I say I make more than a teacher I'll be called out of touch and if I say I make less I'll be called a begrudger.

I'd like to see us balance our budget and even work towards a surplus so we can pay off our debt. If that means rising tax / USC so be it but there is still a lot of waste in the public service we can cut before we have to increase tax.

For one the pay freeze and extra hours should they apply should remain in place, secondly the sector needs to be de-unionized so the government can enforce changes without being held to ransom. Thirdly the extremely generous pay and perks of the senior staff should be redistributed to lower end entrants to make their lives easier without costing the state any more funds.

Iwasfrozen · 02-05-2015 02:03PM

Yara Old Backyard wrote: »

What's crazy about it? Plenty of degree graduates in private industry would be on that and more with similar or even less years on the job and wouldn't have the responsibility of educating the next generation.

Perhaps for accountants, engineers, solicitors or actuaries yes but teachers are not accountants, engineers, solicitors or actuaries.

Teachers have three months of the year off, excellent working conditions and they can't be sacked.These are perks that add to the desirability of the job and of course the more desirable a job the less the employer can pay to meet demand.

We know the teaching profession is over subscribed, many young teachers find it extremely hard to find a full time position, this is their fault for not researching their industry but it's also the governments fault as they have allowed the supply of new graduates to outmatch demand.

What I would propose is to continue to lower teachers wages (or keep the wage freeze, same thing only slower) until the supply of potential teaching candidates reaches the demand.

If schools are finding it hard to fill positions we can look at giving individual schools the right to pay more under certain circumstances.

evolving_doors · 02-05-2015 02:09PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I'd rather not say what I make because if I say I make more than a teacher I'll be called out of touch and if I say I make less I'll be called a begrudger.

Ok fair enough I'll respect the anonymity that boards members deserve. I wouldn't mind if you made more or less than me in any event though. I was just wondering if we could compare your qualifications and/or years experience to mine. After all if we can;t compare then it's just apples and oranges

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I'd like to see us balance our budget and even work towards a surplus so we can pay off our debt. If that means rising tax / USC so be it but there is still a lot of waste in the public service we can cut before we have to increase tax.

For one the pay freeze and extra hours should they apply should remain in place, secondly the sector needs to be de-unionized so the government can enforce changes without being held to ransom. Thirdly the extremely generous pay and perks of the senior staff should be redistributed to lower end entrants to make their lives easier without costing the state any more funds.

Iwasfrozen · 02-05-2015 02:15PM

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Ok fair enough I'll respect the anonymity that boards members deserve. I wouldn't mind if you made more or less than me in any event though. I was just wondering if we could compare your qualifications and/or years experience to mine. After all if we can;t compare then it's just apples and oranges

Fair enough, I have a post graduate degree and a little over a year working for a multi national on 25k in Dublin.

In future when I finish my professional exams I'll probably make more than a teacher but like most private sector workers I start out on less.

evolving_doors · 02-05-2015 06:19PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Fair enough, I have a post graduate degree and a little over a year working for a multi national on 25k a year in Dublin.

In future when I finish my professional exams I'll probably make more than a teacher but like most private sector workers I start out on less.

Well no actually , if I had started out on 25K I would have been delighted.. like most teachers I started out part time in the secondary system. It took about 4 years to average up to 30k , with no 'summer holiday pay'.

The starting fulltime is 30k... Ive yet to meet a teacher just out of college who secures this, it does happen but not the norm. So going back to my extortionate 43k after 10 odd years, I think it more than compensates for the years I spent on part time wages.

So if people are advocating paying even less to new entrants then they are ignorant of the reality that most new entrants are on a portion of a salary (and not necessairily paid during the holidays either).

Anyhow, sorry for dragging it onto teacher woes, but I think its important to realise its not all rosy in the public sector garden. If it were we'd have sensible folk like yissr good selves leaving yer grind and joining the 'gravy train'... but we dont.

BTW who ever stated that teachers have good working conditions had a very unique education experience.

Iwasfrozen · 02-05-2015 06:25PM

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Well no actually , if I had started out on 25K I would have been delighted.. like most teachers I started out part time in the secondary system. It took about 4 years to average up to 30k , with no 'summer holiday pay'.

The starting fulltime is 30k... Ive yet to meet a teacher just out of college who secures this, it does happen but not the norm. So

But why is it hard for new teachers to find roles? Because the supply of teachers is greater than demand. What do you do when supply is greater than demand? You lower wages until the two balance out.

You would have loved 25k, great. If we lower the starting wage to 25k, people like you would face much less competition.

evolving_doors · 02-05-2015 07:35PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Because the supply of teachers is greater than demand. What do you do when supply is greater than demand? You lower wages until the two balance out.

I think you'll find its the oversupply of teachers and part time sub work thats propping our education system up.

Lowering wages is rediculous pettyness considering teachers starting out are on a portion of a wage.

But then I suppose yould only be happy if the public sector worked for free alltogether, its not like its a 'real job' anyway.
Pity there isnt some 'internship' scheme where people could 'keep' their dole and 'gain valuable experience' at the same time...

Thank fech for the unions I say.

evolving_doors · 02-05-2015 07:39PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

But why is it hard for new teachers to find roles? Because the supply of teachers is greater than demand. What do you do when supply is greater than demand? You lower wages until the two balance out.

You would have loved 25k, great. If we lower the starting wage to 25k, people like you would face much less competition.

Ya, the last thing you'ld want is to encourage someone with high expectations of a decent living into a job right?

Iwasfrozen · 02-05-2015 07:58PM

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I think you'll find its the oversupply of teachers and part time sub work thats propping our education system up.

Lowering wages is rediculous pettyness considering teachers starting out are on a portion of a wage.

But then I suppose yould only be happy if the public sector worked for free alltogether, its not like its a 'real job' anyway.
Pity there isnt some 'internship' scheme where people could 'keep' their dole and 'gain valuable experience' at the same time...

Thank fech for the unions I say.

Cutting teachers wages would decrease competition while keeping the number of positions constant making it easier for junior teachers to find a full time job.

Public sector pay increase

Comments