Assisted Suicide

28-04-2015 05:56PM

nathang20 wrote: »

I think the Jury was probably comprised of normal, decent people. They understand the age we live in. We all lose so many rights, one right shouldn't be wether or not the choice to live or die.

If someone exacts revenge on someone there may well be a lot of sympathy from a jury depending on circumstances. The jury would be instructed to base their verdict on facts, not compassion or empathy.
If there's evidence that's not been widely reported then I'd like to see it.

folamh · 28-04-2015 05:58PM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

People keep talking about the Devil being in the details but its something thats impossible to work out adequately.
Take the Belgian brothers who were going blind (on mobile so no link), that occurred in a system with plenty of checks and balances and was a condition that many have to live through.
Just because people may be judged mentally competent doesn't mean they have in anyway typical priorities and judgements.

IMO easiest ethical way through this, in case of physical pain let medical professionals medicate without concern for patient death, we don't just rely on 19th century opiates

If they had the ability to commit suicide themselves, the question of state assistance shouldn't apply to them.

28-04-2015 05:58PM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

People keep talking about the Devil being in the details but its something thats impossible to work out adequately.
Take the Belgian brothers who were going blind (on mobile so no link), that occurred in a system with plenty of checks and balances and was a condition that many have to live through.
Just because people may be judged mentally competent doesn't mean they have in anyway typical priorities and judgements.

I'd like to know the details of that story and what your issue is, it's really hard to gauge your point.

IMO easiest ethical way through this, in case of physical pain let medical professionals medicate without concern for patient death, we don't just rely on 19th century opiates

Anyone who doesn't think that happens to some extent already (usually stupidly late) is a little naive.

folamh · 28-04-2015 06:00PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Was it not the attempt to get her to Switzerland that she was eventually tried for? The actual death and procurement of chemicals charges were dropped last week.

I dunno, but the attempted Zurich trip didn't result in suicide, which would weaken that case.

whats newxt · 28-04-2015 06:02PM

I wish i could go to zurich, only problem is i'm broke. I probably wouldn't follow through with it tho probably spend the money on hookers and coke.

folamh · 28-04-2015 06:02PM

Although even if it had resulted in suicide, it would have been legal (in Switzerland) in which case this trial mightn't have happened at all. I still don't think the Gardai had a right to interfere with their plans to go to a country to do something that's perfectly legal to do there.

seamus · 28-04-2015 06:02PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Was it not the attempt to get her to Switzerland that she was eventually tried for? The actual death and procurement of chemicals charges were dropped last week.

Yes, I believe so.

But still one would have to prove that her actions made her complicit in the attempt rather than simply happening to be there.

Obviously the jury weren't convinced that her actions amounted to anything more than being a spectator in the matter rather than an accomplice.

28-04-2015 06:03PM

folamh wrote: »

I dunno, but the attempted Zurich trip didn't result in suicide, which would weaken that case.

"Attempting".

28-04-2015 06:05PM

seamus wrote: »

Yes, I believe so.

But still one would have to prove that her actions made her complicit in the attempt rather than simply happening to be there.

Obviously the jury weren't convinced that her actions amounted to anything more than being a spectator in the matter rather than an accomplice.

Booking the trip isn't aiding it?
If the judge and law in general doesn't see that as being aiding a crime then I really don't see how anyone can ever be convicted of any aiding and abetting crime.

Harry Palmr · 28-04-2015 06:07PM

Society is going to have to grow up about this. "End of life suicide" so to speak needs to be de-criminalised and regulated. The idea you don't have the right to die in law is just laughable.

seamus · 28-04-2015 06:09PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Booking the trip isn't aiding it?
If the judge and law in general doesn't see that as being aiding a crime then I really don't see how anyone can ever be convicted of any aiding and abetting crime.

Hey, I wasn't there, we don't know the specifics of the evidence presented. My understanding was that she didn't book the trip, she was just present when her friend booked it.

She did go to pick up the tickets, but I'm guessing the jury didn't think that qualified strongly enough as "assistance".

folamh · 28-04-2015 06:11PM

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Society is going to have to grow up about this. "End of life suicide" so to speak needs to be de-criminalised and regulated. The idea you don't have the right to die in law is just laughable.

Well, taking one's own life is not a crime in Ireland. But don't you see how it's different in the case of taking someone else's life? Everyone should have the right to die, but not to kill other people. And with assisted suicide, there is the possibility of malicious intent. So the law needs to change, but not so as to allow an unregulated free-for-all where we can all help each other die.

nathang20 · 28-04-2015 06:11PM

Deleted User wrote: »

If someone exacts revenge on someone there may well be a lot of sympathy from a jury depending on circumstances. The jury would be instructed to base their verdict on facts, not compassion or empathy.
If there's evidence that's not been widely reported then I'd like to see it.

"Instructed", really? And when we're instructed to do something, do we always do it? I might be in the minority, but there is such a thing as "compassion", that exists. The Jury, having heard the evidence may have realised that she had no blame in the death, but secretly knowing that she could have helped the suicide.

I wasn't on the jury, were you in the court room for the entire case? I wasn't but did follow it on the media. None of us can sit at out keyboards and make any kind of statement, relevant facts to the actual case, because we weren't there (unless there was), we can only surmise. Also, none of us know what wet on in the deliberations and in the Jury's minds.

folamh · 28-04-2015 06:13PM

nathang20 wrote: »

"Instructed", really? And when we're instructed to do something, do we always do it? I might be in the minority, but there is such a thing as "compassion", that exists. The Jury, having heard the evidence may have realised that she had no blame in the death, but secretly knowing that she could have helped the suicide.

I wasn't on the jury, were you in the court room for the entire case? I wasn't but did follow it on the media. None of us can sit at out keyboards and make any kind of statement, relevant facts to the actual case, because we weren't there (unless there was), we can only surmise. Also, none of us know what wet on in the deliberations and in the Jury's minds.

But they're also obliged to follow the law, despite their compassion.

28-04-2015 06:15PM

seamus wrote: »

Hey, I wasn't there, we don't know the specifics of the evidence presented. My understanding was that she didn't book the trip, she was just present when her friend booked it.

She did go to pick up the tickets, but I'm guessing the jury didn't think that qualified strongly enough as "assistance".

Who booked it?

nathang20 wrote: »

"Instructed", really? And when we're instructed to do something, do we always do it? I might be in the minority, but there is such a thing as "compassion", that exists. The Jury, having heard the evidence may have realised that she had no blame in the death, but secretly knowing that she could have helped the suicide.

I wasn't on the jury, were you in the court room for the entire case? I wasn't but did follow it on the media. None of us can sit at out keyboards and make any kind of statement, relevant facts to the actual case, because we weren't there (unless there was), we can only surmise. Also, none of us know what wet on in the deliberations and in the Jury's minds.

Yes, "instructed". It's a fairly well-worn bit of the law.

Yeah sure, no point talking about the case in any way shape or form really.

nathang20 · 28-04-2015 06:17PM

folamh wrote: »

But they're also obliged to follow the law, despite their compassion.

I'm not being smart, I'm just making generalisations. I see an orange traffic light, I speed up, despite the fact I know its about to turn red. How many of us do that? How many people here use recreational drugs? I'm just saying that people are not always law abiding citizens.

Gongoozler · 28-04-2015 06:19PM

When I heard about this in terms of the travel agent calling the guards, it really pissed me off. They could so easily have turned a blind eye to it, but they chose not to. That's what I found sickening about this. I don't know that I could have respect for someone who would do that.

Harry Palmr · 28-04-2015 06:20PM

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Society is going to have to grow up about this. "End of life suicide" so to speak needs to be de-criminalised and regulated. The idea you don't have the right to die in law is just laughable.

folamh wrote: »

Well, taking one's own life is not a crime in Ireland. But don't you see how it's different in the case of taking someone else's life? Everyone should have the right to die, but not to kill other people. And with assisted suicide, there is the possibility of malicious intent. So the law needs to change, but not so as to allow an unregulated free-for-all where we can all help each other die.

I draw your attention to the bolded part.

Wouldn't it be civilised to have organised "dying rooms" (as grim as that sounds) so that the person who wants to end their life can do so under an official watchful eye and with their loved ones safe in the knowledge that no one is going to be arrested.

28-04-2015 06:25PM

Gongoozler wrote: »

When I heard about this in terms of the travel agent calling the guards, it really pissed me off. They could so easily have turned a blind eye to it, but they chose not to. That's what I found sickening about this. I don't know that I could have respect for someone who would do that.

If I lived in the locality and knew which one it was I'd be letting everyone know. They obviously have a lot going on in their lives to be worrying about.

lila1 · 28-04-2015 06:27PM

I suffer from a neurological condition myself ans so far there is no cure. About 3 years ago I went through a terrible time.

Most off the day my body had a mind off its own and I couldnt control my movements
I was shaking so much that I couldn't walk safely and had to use a wheelchair
At other times I was left with no movement at all or no speech I was there in body only

I would have to say for me I could not ask any one to help me to commit suicide
It is by no means easy but we have to do our best with the life we are given
I read a book a few years ago about a woman wanting her family to help her die and there is no way I could put my family through this.
I know when the time comes it will not be easy for them to watch me suffer but thats all part of life I guess

But hey ho on a brighter note I intend to be around for a while yet

folamh · 28-04-2015 06:27PM

Harry Palmr wrote: »

I draw your attention to the bolded part.

Wouldn't it be civilised to have organised "dying rooms" (as grim as that sounds) so that the person who wants to end their life can do so under an official watchful eye and with their loved ones safe in the knowledge that no one is going to be arrested.

I was (partially) agreeing with you!

Having dying rooms accessible to everyone without discrimination would probably result in more suicides which is arguably worse than a situation of less suicides albeit in less safe circumstances.

28-04-2015 06:36PM

lila1 wrote: »

I suffer from a neurological condition myself ans so far there is no cure. About 3 years ago I went through a terrible time.

Most off the day my body had a mind off its own and I couldnt control my movements
I was shaking so much that I couldn't walk safely and had to use a wheelchair
At other times I was left with no movement at all or no speech I was there in body only

I would have to say for me I could not ask any one to help me to commit suicide
It is by no means easy but we have to do our best with the life we are given
I read a book a few years ago about a woman wanting her family to help her die and there is no way I could put my family through this.
I know when the time comes it will not be easy for them to watch me suffer but thats all part of life I guess

But hey ho on a brighter note I intend to be around for a while yet

Well this is the thing, you're one person. I remember a debate about this issue where someone was terminally ill and all the rest and decided that because they didn't want to end their life then the law shouldn't allow anyone to.

28-04-2015 06:37PM

If we are to have "dying rooms" I think at the very least they should require an appointment booked in advance. :P

Harry Palmr · 28-04-2015 06:40PM

folamh wrote: »

I was (partially) agreeing with you!

Having dying rooms accessible to everyone without discrimination would probably result in more suicides which is arguably worse than a situation of less suicides albeit in less safe circumstances.

I think we need a new word, suicide is so sullied after all. Its ironic but I can only believe as more people live longer we are going to see more requests to be allowed to die when we want to within reason (reason being medical prognosis).

Those who are classically suicidal "desperate" and probably influenced by drugs/alcohol would obviously not be part of such an organised programme anyway, they'll still attempt to end their lives in an an-hoc fashion.

byhookorbycrook · 28-04-2015 06:41PM

I have MS and once during a very severe infection, I lost most of my body functions. I would want to be able to choose my time of dying if this were to become permanent.

28-04-2015 06:43PM

Harry Palmr wrote: »

I think we need a new word, suicide is so sullied after all. Its ironic but I can only believe as more people live longer we are going to see more requests to be allowed to die when we want to within reason (reason being medical prognosis).

This is another thing that puzzles me, I thought suicide was no longer an offence under the law. If so I don't get how one can be charged with aiding and abetting what isn't an offence.

wupucus · 28-04-2015 06:46PM

I agree with people having the right to decide on this issue for themselves, it is between them and their loved ones, it is nobody else's business as far as I am concerned - there was some pro-life proponent on the TV spouting a load of quassi - religious drivel- I get really annoyed with people like this- if she has her own beliefs, fine she is perfectly intitled to live her life byher own moral code or whatever - but what gives her the right to impose her beliefs on other people- it really p.....s's me off - MIND YOU OWN BUISNESS - GET A LIFE - and let us live our lives (or end our lives ) as we chose - pull your nose out of other peoples lives- get off your moral high horse and stop telling people you know better than them, what is good for them -

Carlos Orange · 28-04-2015 06:50PM

Suicide seems like a perfectly rational thing to do in some circumstances so I wouldn't have any objection to it in those circumstances. Society agreeing what those are might be a bit of a tricky thing. I wouldn't restrict it to be people who need assistance either.

folamh · 28-04-2015 07:03PM

Deleted User wrote: »

This is another thing that puzzles me, I thought suicide was no longer an offence under the law. If so I don't get how one can be charged with aiding and abetting what isn't an offence.

Those two tenets are not contradictory. The law states:

(1) Suicide shall cease to be a crime.

(2) A person who aids, abets, counsels or procures the suicide of another, or an attempt by another to commit suicide, shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on conviction on indictment to imprisonment for a term not exceeding fourteen years.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1993/en/act/pub/0011/sec0002.html#sec2

randy hickey · 28-04-2015 07:07PM

Delighted this lady was cleared.
Couldn't help but wonder as the trial progressed, would this have ever seen the inside of a courtroom if she was from Dalkey or Foxrock?

Assisted Suicide

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