The Gay Megathread (see mod note on post #2212)

katydid · 27-04-2015 06:58PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Agree. I hope Greaney can shed some light on the topic.

I think Greaney is a little confused...

tommy2bad · 27-04-2015 07:07PM

Greaney wrote: »

Bannasidhe, this was just to put the focus on children. There are various types of parents in this video. Most folk who use assisted reproduction presently are heterosexual, however apparently the number of Same sex couples applying for assisted reproduction is rising rapidly

http://www.ottawafertilitylaw.com/lgbtq/

That's just one link I know, but sure folk can google it and look into it themselves.

But why put the focus on children, as I understand it some whare between 1/3 and half of all children are born without the protection of marriage or civil partnership. Theirs a clear separation between having children and marriage in practise right now.
The way the no side is going on you would think women were going to be forced into being surrogates for gay couples Once they get a marriage licence. It will be the same licence straight couples have and will grant them nothing a straight couple don't have.

Marriage is a statutory instrument used by the state to encourage, support and burden family units. Nothing more. If you think stable family units are the best foundation for society then the institute of marriage is worth protecting. Restricting marriage to opposite sex couples offers no extra protection to the institute, in fact all it does is ensure it's steady decline in relevance to the concept of family.

Delirium · 28-04-2015 08:38AM

Why surrogacy has nothing to do with same-sex marriage

One of the few significant studies has been carried out by the University of Huddersfield Repository, which collects, analyses and makes data publicly available. Using both data from organisations involved in surrogacy and UK government data on parental orders (which give legal parental rights to couples using surrogacy), the university was able to produce an authoritative analysis of trends in the UK, which are probably the best indicator of what might happen in Ireland if we follow their legislative regime.

The first thing that is clear from this study is that the majority of those having recourse to surrogacy are heterosexual couples, usually married, seeking to establish a family composed of a mother and a father with the maximum possible biological link to their child or children – a “traditional family” as understood by most people.

Under the UK’s 1990 Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act, commissioning parents had to be married, aged over 18, domiciled in the UK and at least one had to be the child’s genetic parent. Commercial surrogacy was not allowed. The Act provided for “parental orders” making the commissioning parents the legal parents of the child.

In 1995, the first year of its operation, there were 50 parental orders made, and from then until 2007 there were between 36 and 51 annually, rising to 83 over the next three years.

In 2010 the law changed to allow same-sex couples and unmarried heterosexual couples in “an enduring family relationship” to avail of surrogacy arrangements. In 2011, the first full year of the new regime, and the most recent for which figures were available to the study, saw a jump to 149 parental orders.

While there has been no consistent collection of data on who was seeking the orders, the Huddersfield study cites figures from the government agency Cafcass that there were 29 successful gay couple applicants and three successful lesbian couple applicants for parental orders that year. This probably includes some pent-up demand. The study suggested much of the rest was accounted for by unmarried people in “an enduring family relationship”.

The authors also speculate that some of the increase was accounted for by a growth in surrogacy arrangements made abroad.

So, in the UK, which has a liberal surrogacy regime, in the last year for which Huddersfield had figures almost 80 per cent of applicants for parental orders were heterosexual couples, and the majority of those were married.

aloyisious · 28-04-2015 12:11PM

Bump for MarriagEquality. A YES Equality shop has opened it's doors from 11 AM today in Stephens Green Shopping Centre beside the Meteor Store across from the Yankee Candle shop. Get your gear here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkwYEhjjZhs

uck51js9zml2yt · 28-04-2015 05:58PM

I know people will say its about equal rights but as a Christian, its nothing to do with it.
Its about changing the constitution to approve of something God calls sin.
As far a scripture is concerned. Homosexuality is not something a person is born with but is the belief if a lie and the giving of oneself to that lie.
Do I think any less of homosexuals? The same question can be asked of thieves, liars, murderers. As far as God is concerned sin is sin and needs to be repented of and forsaken.
Of course there are those who will say Jesus didn't condemn homosexuals but he never approved either. He always referred to marriage as being between a man and woman.
It was only the Apostle Paul who dealt with the issue in the New Testament.
And he placed all sin at same level and as a result every person at the same level. All equal.

Bannasidhe · 28-04-2015 05:59PM

Millie Careful Shipwreck wrote: »

Do I think any less of homosexuals? The same question can be asked of thieves, liars, murderers. As far as God is concerned sin is sin and needs to be repented of and forsaken.
.

That is uncalled for!

uck51js9zml2yt · 28-04-2015 06:03PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

That is uncalled for!

What is?

Bannasidhe · 28-04-2015 06:04PM

Millie Careful Shipwreck wrote: »

What is?

Equating homosexuals with rapists and murderers.

katydid · 28-04-2015 06:08PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Equating homosexuals with rapists and murderers.

Best ignore the troll

Turtwig · 28-04-2015 06:09PM

Millie Careful Shipwreck wrote: »

Do I think any less of homosexuals? The same question can be asked of thieves, liars, murderers.

MOD:

Whether it was your intention or not, you gave the impression you were equalizing homosexuals with thieves, liars and murderers. Please be careful with your wording in future.

I understand the point you're trying to make, but it can made with less inflammatory phrasing.

uck51js9zml2yt · 28-04-2015 06:09PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Equating homosexuals with rapists and murderers.

If you bothered to read my whole post you would have read the I said the bible calls it sin not a trait of birth . in that regard it also puts all sin at the same level which required the death of Jesus on a cross to allow a way for mankind to return to God.
I've never raped or murdered anyone but my sin is no less than theirs.
Sin only has levels if you believe in mortal and venal sins but the bible makes no such declaration.

28-04-2015 06:11PM

Millie Careful Shipwreck wrote: »

I know people will say its about equal rights but as a Christian, its nothing to do with it.
Its about changing the constitution to approve of something God calls sin.
As far a scripture is concerned. Homosexuality is not something a person is born with but is the belief if a lie and the giving of oneself to that lie.
Do I think any less of homosexuals? The same question can be asked of thieves, liars, murderers. As far as God is concerned sin is sin and needs to be repented of and forsaken.
Of course there are those who will say Jesus didn't condemn homosexuals but he never approved either. He always referred to marriage as being between a man and woman.
It was only the Apostle Paul who dealt with the issue in the New Testament.
And he placed all sin at same level and as a result every person at the same level. All equal.

Would you support a campaign to re-criminalise homosexuality?

Would you support a campaign to remove the option of divorce?

Turtwig · 28-04-2015 06:17PM

katydid wrote: »

Best ignore the troll

MOD:

If you believe someone to be trolling please report the poster. Don't make the accusation in thread.

Thanks,

uck51js9zml2yt · 28-04-2015 06:23PM

Turtwig wrote: »

MOD:

Whether it was your intention or not, you gave the impression you were equalizing homosexuals with thieves, liars and murderers. Please be careful with your wording in future.

I understand the point you're trying to make, but it can made with less inflammatory phrasing.

I'm equalising sin. As this is a christian forum, I'm referencing what the bible says about homosexuality and sin.
Paul made no difference between a liar, an adulterer or a murderer. Maybe that's because God makes no difference.
Every one of us needs to be redeemed from our sin. Jesus died for all people and to pay the penalty for all sin. He didn't differentiate like we do.
As I've said, the bible calls homosexuality sin not a lifestyle choice or a result of genetics.
As a Christian I either believe it or don't and stop claiming to be a christian.

Bannasidhe · 28-04-2015 06:24PM

Millie Careful Shipwreck wrote: »

I'm equalising sin. As this is a christian forum, I'm referencing what the bible says about homosexuality and sin.
Paul made no difference between a liar, an adulterer or a murderer. Maybe that's because God makes no difference.
Every one of us needs to be redeemed from our sin. Jesus died for all people and to pay the penalty for all sin. He didn't differentiate like we do.
As I've said, the bible calls homosexuality sin not a lifestyle choice or a resultcor genetics.
As a Christian I either believe it or don't and stop claiming to be a christian.

Paul was just a man.

uck51js9zml2yt · 28-04-2015 06:25PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Paul was just a man.

Who said himself he was a murderer and an approver or murderers.

Bannasidhe · 28-04-2015 06:29PM

Millie Careful Shipwreck wrote: »

Who said himself he was a murderer and an approver or murderers.

Still just a man whose opinion counts for no more or less than any other man.

Satori Rae · 28-04-2015 06:32PM

Just going to leave this here for anyone interested in reading.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/analysis/marriage-equality-referendum-no-campaign-does-not-value-each-child-327323.html?utm_source=news&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=newsbriefing

uck51js9zml2yt · 28-04-2015 06:52PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Still just a man whose opinion counts for no more or less than any other man.

Unless you beleive he wrote what was to become the biggest part of the new testament under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and that he therefore wrote down what what in the mind of God.

Bannasidhe · 28-04-2015 06:57PM

Millie Careful Shipwreck wrote: »

Unless you beleive he wrote what was to become the biggest part of the new testament under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and that he therefore wrote down what what in the mind of God.

You are telling me Paul knew what was in the mind of God to such an extent that Paul spoke for God?

You are placing Paul on a par with Jesus??

ziedth · 28-04-2015 06:59PM

Millie Careful Shipwreck wrote: »

I know people will say its about equal rights but as a Christian, its nothing to do with it.
Its about changing the constitution to approve of something God calls sin.
As far a scripture is concerned. Homosexuality is not something a person is born with but is the belief if a lie and the giving of oneself to that lie.
Do I think any less of homosexuals? The same question can be asked of thieves, liars, murderers. As far as God is concerned sin is sin and needs to be repented of and forsaken.
Of course there are those who will say Jesus didn't condemn homosexuals but he never approved either. He always referred to marriage as being between a man and woman.
It was only the Apostle Paul who dealt with the issue in the New Testament.
And he placed all sin at same level and as a result every person at the same level. All equal.

It actually astounds me that I live in a world (let alone a country) Where people think like this. Like let's assume your right and everything you believe is true and God condems Homosexual acts etc etc.

lets say your right how the hell can you follow something/someone that condems my cousin Dar. Dar has been with his partner for 20 odd years, they are a little like that couple off of goglebox absolutely smashing fun a bit bitchy but besotted with each other. Dar volunteers his spare time help underprivileged kids Where he lives. Ran a Marathon raising money for suicide services in the west of Ireland (he lives in Spain) and is all around a better human being then I could ever be.

You are telling me that God has condemned Dar to an eternity of hell because he is intimate with his partner regardless of all the good he does in the world.

I'll tell you this if your God works like that I'll happily take eternity in hell with the sinners (and I'm not even an atheist saying that)

Nick Park · 28-04-2015 07:03PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

You are telling me Paul knew what was in the mind of God to such an extent that Paul spoke for God?

You are placing Paul on a par with Jesus??

It is part of historic Christian belief that the Holy Spirit (who is God) inspired the writings of Paul just as much as He inspired the Gospel writers.

As a non-Christian, you obviously are free to disagree with this doctrine, but don't you think that an atheist arguing the toss about it in this thread, in this forum, will only serve to hijack the thread?

Nick Park · 28-04-2015 07:09PM

ziedth wrote: »

You are telling me that God has condemned Dar to an eternity of hell because he is intimate with his partner regardless of all the good he does in the world.

I think your beef is with Christianity in general, rather than anything to do with homosexuality.

The historic Christian belief would be that we are condemned as sinners for all the wrong we do (lying, gossip, selfishness and a load of other stuff).

I don't think any Christian would assert that Dar is condemned just for being in a gay relationship. That would necessitate that he was sinless in every other respect.

As for "all the good he does in the world" - Christians generally don't believe that you earn salvation by doing good things. You receive it by faith.

Bannasidhe · 28-04-2015 07:10PM

Nick Park wrote: »

It is part of historic Christian belief that the Holy Spirit (who is God) inspired the writings of Paul just as much as He inspired the Gospel writers.

As a non-Christian, you obviously are free to disagree with this doctrine, but don't you think that an atheist arguing the toss about it in this thread, in this forum, will only serve to hijack the thread?

If the mods have a problem with atheists posting here they can ask us not to. It is not a closed forum no more than A&A where people of all religious persuasion are free to post.

And no - as I gay person I should be afforded right to reply.

Frank Bullitt · 28-04-2015 07:11PM

Millie Careful Shipwreck wrote: »

I know people will say its about equal rights but as a Christian, its nothing to do with it.
Its about changing the constitution to approve of something God calls sin.
As far a scripture is concerned. Homosexuality is not something a person is born with but is the belief if a lie and the giving of oneself to that lie.
Do I think any less of homosexuals? The same question can be asked of thieves, liars, murderers. As far as God is concerned sin is sin and needs to be repented of and forsaken.
Of course there are those who will say Jesus didn't condemn homosexuals but he never approved either. He always referred to marriage as being between a man and woman.
It was only the Apostle Paul who dealt with the issue in the New Testament.
And he placed all sin at same level and as a result every person at the same level. All equal.

This part alone shows why we should not take any moral advise from the bible, and how it can't possibly attempt to play a role in modern society.

Being gay isn't a choice, this is now proven through extensive studies including this one - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/largest-ever-study-into-the-gay-gene-erodes-the-notion-that-sexual-orientation-is-a-choice-9875855.html

Saying that it is a choice as you have said, shows the ignorance on your part, and also on the part of certain parts of christianity and the christian society in Ireland. How can the bible have any moral superiority whatsoever, when it has clear issues with keeping up with what morally decent people today consider moral common sense?

uck51js9zml2yt · 28-04-2015 07:12PM

ziedth wrote: »

It actually astounds me that I live in a world (let alone a country) Where people think like this. Like let's assume your right and everything you believe is true and God condems Homosexual acts etc etc.

lets say your right how the hell can you follow something/someone that condems my cousin Dar. Dar has been with his partner for 20 odd years, they are a little like that couple off of goglebox absolutely smashing fun a bit bitchy but besotted with each other. Dar volunteers his spare time help underprivileged kids Where he lives. Ran a Marathon raising money for suicide services in the west of Ireland (he lives in Spain) and is all around a better human being then I could ever be.

You are telling me that God has condemned Dar to an eternity of hell because he is intimate with his partner regardless of all the good he does in the world.

I'll tell you this if your God works like that I'll happily take eternity in hell with the sinners (and I'm not even an atheist saying that)

The sin of mankind has condemned mankind to an eternity without God. That's why Jesus came to earth, lived as a man and died bearing the worlds sin in Himself and Gods punishment for sin on Himself.
No one is excluded from this. He came to save all mankind and we have a choice whether to accept or reject.
The final judgement will be the rejection of God Himself.
If you saying how good a person is is any merit in the eyes of God then your wrong. If I could be good enough to get into heaven Jesus needn't have died.
This applies to me, you, my niece and her wife...everyone.

Nick Park · 28-04-2015 07:14PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

If the mods have a problem with atheists posting here they can ask us not to. It is not a closed forum no more than A&A where people of all religious persuasion are free to post.

Dear me, no-one was saying that atheists don't have the right to post here. I fail to see how my post could possibly be interpreted that way.

I was simply pointing out that atheists arguing their disagreement with Christian teachings on biblical inspiration is hardly going to help a discussion on homosexuality or gay marriage.

But if you want to go down that rabbit trail, then I'm happy to discuss it with you as long as the mods permit it.

And no - as I gay person I should be afforded right to reply.

Your sexual orientation has no bearing on the Christian doctrine of inspiration.

aloyisious · 28-04-2015 07:18PM

Nick Park wrote: »

It is part of historic Christian belief that the Holy Spirit (who is God) inspired the writings of Paul just as much as He inspired the Gospel writers.

As a non-Christian, you obviously are free to disagree with this doctrine, but don't you think that an atheist arguing the toss about it in this thread, in this forum, will only serve to hijack the thread?

On the basis of historic belief, how do you feel about God having inspired the Hebrews and by delivering laws unto them which lead them to demand of the Romans that Jesus be put to death?

Regretfully some Christians do think that being homosexual is sinful in itself.

Nick Park · 28-04-2015 07:22PM

aloyisious wrote: »

On the basis of historic belief, how do you feel about God having inspired the Hebrews and by delivering laws unto them which lead them to demand of the Romans that Jesus be put to death?

Do you want to clarify your question? You use a term 'the Hebrews' to refer to a entire race of people over a period of centuries.

I certainly don't believe that God inspired every Hebrew in history, or that God inspired anyone to demand anything of the Romans.

28-04-2015 07:30PM

@tatranska, not sure if you missed these questions above?

Deleted User wrote: »

Would you support a campaign to re-criminalise homosexuality?

Would you support a campaign to remove the option of divorce?

Thanks

The Gay Megathread (see mod note on post #2212)

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