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Public sector pay increase

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Comments

  • #482
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    KomradeBishop wrote: »
    We have the lowest interest rate on government bonds/debt for over 30 years right now - we should be expanding the budget deficit (both through spending and tax reductions), to grow the economy, given that doing so would be so cheap to do right now - and then bring it back to surplus when we have full private sector employment.

    Pointless trying to pay down our national debt, when it can be expanded sustainably (due to quarter-century-low interest rates), when we aren't even running at full economic capacity yet - when we've got everyone back working, i.e. when tax income is at its maximum potential and the economy is at full speed, that is when you pay down debts, as you can pay them back much faster then.
    Surely even your economics doesn't think borrowing money to pay wages is a good idea?

    Infrastructure upgrades I could live with but wages is asinine.


  • #483
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    jcon1913 wrote: »
    Check the rates life assurance companies pay on annuities - about 2.5% of a fund for a 65 year old. Therefore you woukd need a fund of 680,000 at date of retirement. Youll have paid in 290,000. Get a pension calculatir to see what annual interest etc you woukd need to earn on your contributions over the 40 years. Food for thought.

    They're Irish annuity rates -
    UK annuity rates are closer to 6%.

    That's why I was trying to get my contributions out ;)


  • #484
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,773 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    People are also forgetting about the pension levy when talking about pension contributions. I pay a fair bit more per year in the pension levy than I actually pay into my pension and I will never see a cent of that pension levy again. I'd be getting a decent bit more per month into my pocket on the same salary in the private sector as I wouldn't be paying a stupid pension levy.
    Quin_Dub wrote: »
    Public Sector employee - Fixed pay rates , no bonus , will only get pay rises when everyone gets exactly the same % increase. Everyone is rewarded the same regardless of effort or quality of work. In the long run why would anyone in the public sector strive to be better , to work harder if there is no reward at the end of it . .

    This isn't really the case though, you will have some who work away fine and just get there small increment every year which takes quite a while then I can tell you to reach any sort of high salary or like many do they work hard and apply for positions at higher grades than they are at or take on extra roles which which either pays more money or most likely moves them from one scale up to the next.

    Everyone nurse or teacher or lecturer or Guard didn't just go in at the bottom and stay there most applied for new position to increase their grade, took on different posts, extra responsibility etc. There is reward for those who work hard, the rewards just take much longer to achieve and are not as big as what can happen in the private sector.


  • #485
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Riskymove wrote: »
    I presume he means the lump sum

    all private pension funds can produce a similar lump sum which is tax free under €200,000

    Possibly, but that's not what was posted


  • #486
    KomradeBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,981 ✭✭✭KomradeBishop


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Surely even your economics doesn't think borrowing money to pay wages is a good idea?

    Infrastructure upgrades I could live with but wages is asinine.
    Every government on the planet borrows money - whether it's a good idea or not depends on whether the borrowing is sustainable, and the sustainability is determined primarily by the interest rate (currently at its lowest level in more than 30 years), not by the overall level of debt.

    You could fund a jobs program at the minimum wage if you like, employing people to work on infrastructure, rather than providing wage increases. Whatever gets more money into the private sector (and public spending increases and tax reductions, are some of the few remaining ways to pump money into the private sector, that aren't already tapped out as much as they can sustainably be).


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  • #487
    jcon1913
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 803 ✭✭✭jcon1913


    heretochat wrote: »
    I knew when I saw the newspaper reports at the weekend regarding a public sector pay increase that the usual boards public sector bashing thread would appear with all sorts of vitriolic comment thrown in for good measure.

    Let me clarify - I work in the private sector and have always done so. That is my chosen career path, I paid for my own third level education and am happy with where I am. I live comfortably enough and have no reason to nit pick as to what other peoples' earnings may be.

    I have had the normal interaction with public services and can't complain in the vast majority of cases with the level of professionalism I encountered.

    I see comments on this and other threads about the great pay and pensions etc in the public sector. To those who brandish this particular argument over and over again I would ask this - why keep looking on from the outside and complaining about it? If the perks are so good, why not join the "party"? From what I can gather there is a lot of open recruitment to the public service now anyway so that is surely an option.

    Of course, if such persons were to do so they would have no flaming pitchfork to wave around anymore :rolleyes:

    Also I see a lot of comments about Guards, nurses, teachers being paid x2, x3 etc the rate paid elsewhere. Can't recall seeing much in the way of proof of this though. So some sources to inform the debate would help.

    Anyway that is just my two cents. I will give way now to the raving brigade again

    the ESRI found that public servants were paid 20% above comparably qualified private sector workers before public service pay cuts.


  • #488
    Riskymove
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,903 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    jcon1913 wrote: »
    the ESRI found that public servants were paid 20% above comparably qualified private sector workers before public service pay cuts.

    i.e. graduates get on better and earn more in the PS

    I'm sure qualified people in finance earn more than comparably qualified people working in retail


  • #489
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    KomradeBishop wrote: »
    Every government on the planet borrows money - whether it's a good idea or not depends on whether the borrowing is sustainable, and the sustainability is determined primarily by the interest rate (currently at its lowest level in more than 30 years), not by the overall level of debt.
    Agreed but the key to sustainability is limiting borrowing so debt/gdp ratio constantly falls over time.

    If the government does increase debt/gdp they should use the funds for long term infrastructure funds that will that will generate more than the value of the loan plus interest over its life. Using long term lending as a means to pay wages is an extremely inefficient use of funds, ask any business owner. The same logic applies.
    You could fund a jobs program at the minimum wage if you like, employing people to work on infrastructure, rather than providing wage increases. Whatever gets more money into the private sector (and public spending increases and tax reductions, are some of the few remaining ways to pump money into the private sector, that aren't already tapped out as much as they can sustainably be).
    Why do that when the infrastructure could be built by professional, experienced contractors at a fraction of the price?

    If you want to get people to work you'd be better off sponsoring the contractors to train new recruits.


  • #490
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Riskymove wrote: »
    i.e. graduates get on better and earn more in the PS

    I'm sure qualified people in finance earn more than comparably qualified people working in retail

    Amazing the metal gymnastics, Even our EZ partners know the score. Why do people keeps banging on about they are not some of the highest paid ?


  • #491
    bjork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭bjork


    What improvement to productivity has been made since they last went looking for a payrise?


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  • #492
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    bjork wrote: »
    What improvement to productivity has been made since they last went looking for a payrise?

    :pac:


  • #493
    Riskymove
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,903 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    bjork wrote: »
    What improvement to productivity has been made since they last went looking for a payrise?

    The Haddington Road Agreement and before it the Croke Park Agreement introduced a number of productivity measures....feel free to research!


  • #494
    bjork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭bjork


    osarusan wrote: »
    what kind of improvements in productivity do you expect from...say... a fireman? Or a heart surgeon?

    More fires put out in shorter times


    More hearts operated on. Less waiting lists.


  • #495
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Riskymove wrote: »
    The Haddington Road Agreement and before it the Croke Park Agreement introduced a number of productivity measures....feel free to research!

    Were they not to get people working at a reasonable rate nothing near private sector. You know take 5 calls instead of 2.


  • #496
    bjork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭bjork


    Riskymove wrote: »
    The Haddington Road Agreement and before it the Croke Park Agreement introduced a number of productivity measures....feel free to research!

    Introducing measures is all well and good. What's happening on the ground?


  • #497
    Riskymove
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,903 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Were they not to get people working at a reasonable rate nothing near private sector. You know take 5 calls instead of 2.

    as I said, feel free to research


  • #498
    osarusan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,059 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    bjork wrote: »
    More fires put out in shorter times


    More hearts operated on. Less waiting lists.

    Oops, meant to edit my post but deleted it instead.


    What if there are fewer fires for them to put out?

    But those fires they do have to deal with are bigger?


    What if there are fewer hearts to be operated on?


  • #499
    Riskymove
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,903 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    bjork wrote: »
    Introducing measures is all well and good. What's happening on the ground?

    I appreciate some people won't be happy until PS have no leave at all and work 24 hours a day....but as I said...feel free to research


  • #500
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Riskymove wrote: »
    as I said, feel free to research

    If it was anything impressive it would have been linked fairly sharpish.


  • #501
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    osarusan wrote: »
    Oops, meant to edit my post but deleted it instead.


    What if there are fewer fires for them to put out?

    But those fires they do have to deal with are bigger?


    What if there are fewer hearts to be operated on?

    Down size staff numbers in that case.


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  • #502
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    bjork wrote: »
    More fires put out in shorter times


    More hearts operated on. Less waiting lists.

    What happens if the fire prevention efforts are successful?

    What about RTAs? Should they train on vehicle extractions or only deal with fires? Likewise other rescues - should they train for those or just cross their fingers that if, for instance, a building collapses someone else will handle rescue and recovery.


  • #503
    Riskymove
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,903 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    bjork wrote: »
    More fires put out in shorter times


    More hearts operated on. Less waiting lists.

    what if Government wont replace vacancies and there are not enough firemen to tackle all the fires

    what if they don't get the equipment needed


    what if Govt close wards and cut Health budgets


  • #504
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Riskymove wrote: »
    I appreciate some people won't be happy until PS have no leave at all and work 24 hours a day....but as I said...feel free to research

    Nope just something close to the hours put in in a private sector job.


  • #505
    Riskymove
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,903 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    If it was anything impressive it would have been linked fairly sharpish.

    so it is clear you won't research it...probably suits the agenda to just make assumptions anyway


  • #506
    Riskymove
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,903 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Nope just something close to the hours put in in a private sector job.

    talk to any junior doctor


  • #507
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Riskymove wrote: »
    so it is clear you won't research it...probably suits the agenda to just make assumptions anyway

    Link away I will read it.


  • #508
    osarusan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,059 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Down size staff numbers in that case.
    Not relevant to the point I was making though.


  • #509
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Riskymove wrote: »
    talk to any junior doctor

    What about the absolute tunes of back office staff ? pretty poor example to be fair. People know exactly who could be working to full potential and those that are not.


  • #510
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    osarusan wrote: »
    Not relevant to the point I was making though.

    Why do you need staff if they are not working ? Seems an odd attitude to have.


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  • #511
    Riskymove
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,903 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    What about the absolute tunes of back office staff ?

    none of them in private sector of course


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