Public sector pay increase

barneystinson · 27-04-2015 01:55AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I have no particular beef with teachers we just got on the subject. I do think the public sector as a whole is over paid but a lot of these problems could be solved by workforce de-unionization.

Oh well if you think it then it must be true... :rolleyes:

Have you a lot of experience in large scale workforce de-unionisation (we spell it with an s on this zide of the Atlantic..!

)

You alzo conveniently ignored the firzt queztion I azked you.

Iwasfrozen · 27-04-2015 02:02AM

barneystinson wrote: »

Oh well if you think it then it must be true... :rolleyes:

Have you a lot of experience in large scale workforce de-unionisation (we spell it with an s on this zide of the Atlantic..! )

You alzo conveniently ignored the firzt queztion I azked you.

Yes, I ignored your first question.

Secondly, de-unionization wouldn't be easy in the short term but long term it would allow the government much greater flexibility in dealing with the public sector.

Smidge · 27-04-2015 02:33AM

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

What utter horse sh*t! Can you name the private sector counterpart for the following jobs:

Nurses
Gardai
Teachers
Army
Fire service
Prison officers

There is no private sector counterpart for them and they make up a huge percentage of the public sector.

What profession are you in and what are the wage differentials between yours and public service equivalent? Why didn't you join the public service if your own job is so poorly paid? Why did you chose that job? Were you not qualified enough to join the public service???

I'm afraid some of the above I would have to take serious issue with as for some bizarre reason, the above jobs seem to have garnered "reverence" with some people.

Lets deal with Nurses firstly.
I have a friend. He is a care assistant/home help for a private company under contract with the HSE for elderly people.
He is contracted for a half hour visit with each client(takes home after tax less than 5 euro for it).
He has to travel to each clients house(rural location/petrol costs/car running costs none of which there is an allowance for). So he could be 15 mins getting there and 15 back. Already 30 mins unpaid for with extra costs(fuel etc).
He is NEVER only there for 30 mins(for which he is paid less than a fiver)
He is expected to prepare food(breakfast/sandwichs etc), clean up dishes etc and tidy about and attend to the personal hygiene needs of the client.
This means change soiled hygiene products/sheets/clothes and then assist with washing the person and dressing them.
Then assisting the client with personal grooming/shopping. Helping them with their medication(reading labels/making sure they know what tablets they have to take during the day)
And also helping the client emotionally. Chatting. Company. Care giving.
He often spends 6 hours doing the job that pays him €15 for an hour and a half that he is contracted for(3 clients).
So why does he do it? Because no-one else will. Not for that money anyway.
Dont tell me there is, on a day to day basis that much of a difference in what he does than a nurse, so why the pay/benefits disparity?

Teacher

Did anyone see the recent media coverage of people working in the childcare industry?
They are paid a pittance(some not paid at all as such as they are filling these positions nationwide with TUS etc). One woman said around 8 euro per hour before tax and thats with a college degree.
These people are working longer hours than teachers(from 8 to 6 in a lot of cases and throughout the entire summer and other hols in a lot of cases)and whether you like it on not are TEACHING children.
They do a lot of what is done in Junior Infants in these facillities.
And dont get me started about teachers in general. A lot is rotten in the profession(there are some good teachers out there, dont get me wrong.)
We have issues in our school with teachers just not coming IN for classes. No shows. Class after class after class. Have a problem with it? Get told go to DoE about it. Drunk teachers as someone else mentioned? Yep, there have been incidents with the teacher still steaming drunk in class the next morning and losing it with the kids and then telling them to "work on X chapter and I'l be back....to return at the end of a double period :rolleyes:

As for Gardai..I am saddened to say that I have lost respect for them.
There have been 2 incidents in this month alone(April) with family members, that had genuine, serious need for assistance and well, the result was deplorable. Actually, to say "the result" implies there was "a result" from AGS. There wasn't. They didn't respond or assist in either case.

I know of people working in the private sector, security guards, taxi drivers, even cashiers in bookmakers who get attacked and assaulted regularly in their profession.
Where are the people shouting about their rights to better pay because its a job with extra risks?
A friend of mine is a taxi driver. Nice guy and not the boards stereotype of what they are. Many's a time he has dropped a drunken straggler home for free and helped a drunken buffoon after the "free drinkies office partayy" get into the house or A&E dept over his shoulder.
He has been robbed 6 times since xmas and physically assaulted 8 times(punched and kicked by men/scrabbed and slapped by drunken women)
My friend who works in the book makers has been attacked leaving work several times(for some reason these fools think SHE has some money

)

Apologies for the long post but its really boiling my p1ss that some people think that because the are protected within certain professions that their job is MORE worthwhile and valid than someone else's.
Its not. People are doing your job everyday. Just under a different title. And for less pay and perks.

scary · 27-04-2015 02:44AM

Smidge wrote: »

Lets deal with Nurses firstly.
I have a friend. He is a care assistant/home help

Care assistants are not the same as nurses.

Smidge · 27-04-2015 02:48AM

scary wrote: »

Care assistants are not the same as nurses.

You're right. They are not the same
A care assistant/home help worker does more.
How many nurse do you know that will not only change soiled bedding(and actually a lot of the time hospital assistants, not nurses do this)and wash you and do all of the tasks outlined above(the same as what a nurse does)but also do your shopping for you?

scary · 27-04-2015 02:54AM

Smidge wrote: »

You're right. They are not the same
A care assistant/home help worker does more.
How many nurse do you know that will not only change soiled bedding and wash you and do all of the tasks outlined above(the same as what a nurse does)but also do your shopping for you?

if you're parent was in hospital and soiled themselves and there was no nurse to attend to them because they were away at the shops for another patient would you be happy? It's called home help for a reason

Smidge · 27-04-2015 02:58AM

scary wrote: »

if you're parent was in hospital and soiled themselves and there was no nurse to attend to them because they were away at the shops for another patient would you be happy? It's called home help for a reason

The issue is the similarity within a role. Both roles are similar but the CA/HH has more duties within a tighter time frame and for less money perks.

You have missed the point completely.
It was comparing like with like in roles.

Go back and re-read the posts again.

Kermit.de.frog · 27-04-2015 03:09AM

We are paying for an over staffed, over paid public service.

The right thing to do would be to keep the embargo on recruitment and hold pay as is for 2 more years. That would be in the country's interest.

scary · 27-04-2015 03:24AM

Smidge wrote: »

The issue is the similarity within a role. Both roles are similar but the CA/HH has more duties within a tighter time frame and for less money perks.

You have missed the point completely.
It was comparing like with like in roles.

Go back and re-read the posts again.

I have, the comparison was between nurses and care assistants different roles and responsibilities.

Smidge · 27-04-2015 03:34AM

scary wrote: »

I have, the comparison was between nurses and care assistants different roles and responsibilities.

Fair enough.
Outline a nurse's role and duties for me so?
Clearly. Point. By. Point

scary · 27-04-2015 04:11AM

Smidge wrote: »

Fair enough.
Outline a nurse's role and duties for me so?
Clearly. Point. By. Point

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nursing_specialties

which specialty?

Jawgap · 27-04-2015 05:37AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't agree everyone would leave, as I've said before the teaching profession is over subscribed. Yes some would leave but they can be replaced and in the unlikely circumstance where schools are finding it impossible to fill positions the pay could be increased.

You won't be replacing like for like. There's a world of difference between a teacher with 10 years experience and a new grad.

Or to use my own example, about 24 months ago I was in a job in the PS and there were 3 other managers in the same role - combined experience equated to about 100 years and one of us was in a senior governance role in our professional body.

The PS is now saving a lot of salary. Of the four, two of us left and now work as 'poachers' instead of gamekeepers, one retired and one took early retirement and also took up 'poaching' but on a part-time basis.

I now work as a 'hired gun' for companies in the regulated sector I used to police. Meanwhile the 'sheriffs' are two good lads, well qualified, but less than 10 years experience between them. But there's a lot of salary being saved

as_mo_bhosca · 27-04-2015 08:35AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't agree everyone would leave, as I've said before the teaching profession is over subscribed. Yes some would leave but they can be replaced and in the unlikely circumstance where schools are finding it impossible to fill positions the pay could be increased.

How would you do that? What about areas that still find it very difficult to find sub cover. No one with experience would bother working in areas like inner city Limerick for any long term, believe me. Where is the incentive to upskill? Why would you spend thousands to gain a masters degree?
You are talking nonsense.

as_mo_bhosca · 27-04-2015 08:44AM

These people are working longer hours than teachers(from 8 to 6 in a lot of cases and throughout the entire summer and other hols in a lot of cases)and whether you like it on not are TEACHING children.

In classes of 28 plus? No, don't think so. Big difference in standard of education provided too. I recently did a great job putting down a wooden floor for my father. I did it for the price of one of my mom's dinners. Shouldn't all carpenters work for the same? Yes, according to your logic. I use the word logic very loosely.

as_mo_bhosca · 27-04-2015 08:50AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Every new teacher fresh out of college in Ireland will have at least two years of experience teaching in a classroom so yes, I expect them to be proficient.

If they aren't, after two years of experience the colleges aren't doing their job and perhaps their funding should be looked at.

In that space of time a teacher is classified as an NQT. The DES expect mentoring to take place for a very good reason. There is also probation by the inspectorate. If you think an NQT can be be equated to a teacher with twenty years experience you're deluded.

joe swanson · 27-04-2015 09:16AM

Smidge wrote: »

I'm afraid some of the above I would have to take serious issue with as for some bizarre reason, the above jobs seem to have garnered "reverence" with some people.

Lets deal with Nurses firstly.
I have a friend. He is a care assistant/home help for a private company under contract with the HSE for elderly people.
He is contracted for a half hour visit with each client(takes home after tax less than 5 euro for it).
He has to travel to each clients house(rural location/petrol costs/car running costs none of which there is an allowance for). So he could be 15 mins getting there and 15 back. Already 30 mins unpaid for with extra costs(fuel etc).
He is NEVER only there for 30 mins(for which he is paid less than a fiver)
He is expected to prepare food(breakfast/sandwichs etc), clean up dishes etc and tidy about and attend to the personal hygiene needs of the client.
This means change soiled hygiene products/sheets/clothes and then assist with washing the person and dressing them.
Then assisting the client with personal grooming/shopping. Helping them with their medication(reading labels/making sure they know what tablets they have to take during the day)
And also helping the client emotionally. Chatting. Company. Care giving.
He often spends 6 hours doing the job that pays him €15 for an hour and a half that he is contracted for(3 clients).
So why does he do it? Because no-one else will. Not for that money anyway.
Dont tell me there is, on a day to day basis that much of a difference in what he does than a nurse, so why the pay/benefits disparity?

Teacher

Did anyone see the recent media coverage of people working in the childcare industry?
They are paid a pittance(some not paid at all as such as they are filling these positions nationwide with TUS etc). One woman said around 8 euro per hour before tax and thats with a college degree.
These people are working longer hours than teachers(from 8 to 6 in a lot of cases and throughout the entire summer and other hols in a lot of cases)and whether you like it on not are TEACHING children.
They do a lot of what is done in Junior Infants in these facillities.
And dont get me started about teachers in general. A lot is rotten in the profession(there are some good teachers out there, dont get me wrong.)
We have issues in our school with teachers just not coming IN for classes. No shows. Class after class after class. Have a problem with it? Get told go to DoE about it. Drunk teachers as someone else mentioned? Yep, there have been incidents with the teacher still steaming drunk in class the next morning and losing it with the kids and then telling them to "work on X chapter and I'l be back....to return at the end of a double period :rolleyes:

As for Gardai..I am saddened to say that I have lost respect for them.
There have been 2 incidents in this month alone(April) with family members, that had genuine, serious need for assistance and well, the result was deplorable. Actually, to say "the result" implies there was "a result" from AGS. There wasn't. They didn't respond or assist in either case.

I know of people working in the private sector, security guards, taxi drivers, even cashiers in bookmakers who get attacked and assaulted regularly in their profession.
Where are the people shouting about their rights to better pay because its a job with extra risks?
A friend of mine is a taxi driver. Nice guy and not the boards stereotype of what they are. Many's a time he has dropped a drunken straggler home for free and helped a drunken buffoon after the "free drinkies office partayy" get into the house or A&E dept over his shoulder.
He has been robbed 6 times since xmas and physically assaulted 8 times(punched and kicked by men/scrabbed and slapped by drunken women)
My friend who works in the book makers has been attacked leaving work several times(for some reason these fools think SHE has some money )

Apologies for the long post but its really boiling my p1ss that some people think that because the are protected within certain professions that their job is MORE worthwhile and valid than someone else's.
Its not. People are doing your job everyday. Just under a different title. And for less pay and perks.

Biggest load of rubbish iv read in a long long time. Absolute tripe.

Polo_Mint · 27-04-2015 09:22AM

How about the Public sector gets stripped down and made more efficient, Then increase the pay of the whoever is left.

I dont mean Garda and nurses but the backroom staff

scary · 27-04-2015 09:26AM

Smidge wrote: »

He has to travel to each clients house(rural location/petrol costs/car running costs none of which there is an allowance for). So he could be 15 mins getting there and 15 back. Already 30 mins unpaid for with extra costs(fuel etc).

seriously, you're giving out because your friend has to make his way to work at his own expense and its only a 15 min journey to it? my heart bleeds purple piss for him.

ratracer · 27-04-2015 09:29AM

Polo_Mint wrote: »

How about the Public sector gets stripped down and made more efficient, Then increase the pay of the whoever is left

But stripped down where exactly? Anywhere I've read, including this thread, its front line staff getting hammered:

Cut teachers -> bigger class size -> not good enough
Cut health staff -> long hospital waiting times etc, poor patient care in wards
Cut/freeze AGS -> more crime/less response.

In all cases, the top heavy management make decisions on critical staffing levels etc, and they are never going to vote themselves out of a job.

There are a lot of way PS money could be saved without ever cutting staff.

27-04-2015 10:13AM

Smidge wrote: »

The issue is the similarity within a role. Both roles are similar but the CA/HH has more duties within a tighter time frame and for less money perks.

You have missed the point completely.
It was comparing like with like in roles.

Go back and re-read the posts again.

Firstly he is a care assistant working for a private company a care assistant working directly for the HSE is paid quite ok for the role with Sunday and night time allowances taken into account.

Comparing the work of a care assistant to that of a Nurse is like comparing a labourer to a site engineer. The labourer may work physically harder (some of the time) but they won't be paid as much as they didn't study for 4 years (minimum) in order to have an extremely in depth knowledge of health care, treatment of patients, identifying issues, understanding all about medications and administering them (and the huge responsibility that goes with this) etc etc etc.

Nurses also do all of the above the work that care assistants do when required but if possible they should concentrate on their other duties.

facing_west · 27-04-2015 10:26AM

its a pointless discussion

the public sector will receive a pay rise as its politically urgent they do , labour are going to loose a chunk of seats in the next election anyway but will loose even more if the goverment doesnt throw a bone towards labours base

all political parties vigorously court the public sector vote in this country , after pensioners , they are the second most powerful voting bloc and that will not change anytime soon

btw , i dont for a second believe the line that most are on crap pay , a clerical officer in any department is on a lot more than most sectretarys who work in solicitors offices , many clerical officers spend their day answering calls , posting mail and using a photo copier yet pull in 30 k per year

facing_west · 27-04-2015 10:30AM

ratracer wrote: »

But stripped down where exactly? Anywhere I've read, including this thread, its front line staff getting hammered:

Cut teachers -> bigger class size -> not good enough
Cut health staff -> long hospital waiting times etc, poor patient care in wards
Cut/freeze AGS -> more crime/less response.

In all cases, the top heavy management make decisions on critical staffing levels etc, and they are never going to vote themselves out of a job.

There are a lot of way PS money could be saved without ever cutting staff.

their is a pretty easy solution to the issue of class sized , close a tonne of rural primary schools , the one i went to currently has less than twenty pupils yet has two teachers , were it to be closed , the furthest any kid would have to travel to the nearest larger school is three miles , there is a second school the other end of the parish which also has less than twenty pupils , again if it was closed , the furthest the students would have to travel to the school in the village centre ( which has a hundred and only built a new school five years ago ) is three miles

a major problem in this country is people expecting every possible service on their doorstep

kippy · 27-04-2015 10:31AM

facing_west wrote: »

its a pointless discussion

the public sector will receive a pay rise as its politically urgent they do , labour are going to loose a chunk of seats in the next election anyway but will loose even more if the goverment doesnt throw a bone towards labours base

all political parties vigorously court the public sector vote in this country , after pensioners , they are the second most powerful voting bloc and that will not change anytime soon

btw , i dont for a second believe the line that most are on crap pay , a clerical officer in any department is on a lot more than most sectretarys who work in solicitors offices , many clerical officers spend their day answering calls , posting mail and using a photo copier yet pull in 30 k per year

The public sector as a whole are not Labour supporters and there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that the block as a whole vote en-mass for one particular party.

kippy · 27-04-2015 10:32AM

facing_west wrote: »

their is a pretty easy solution to the issue of class sized , close a tonne of rural primary schools , the one i went to currently has less than twenty pupils yet has two teachers , were it to be closed , the furthest any kid would have to travel to the nearest larger school is three miles , there is a second school the other end of the parish which also has less than twenty pupils , again if it was closed , the furthest the students would have to travel to the school in the village centre ( which has a hundred and only built a new school five years ago ) is three miles

a major problem in this country is people expecting every possible service on their doorstep

I'd agree with that 100%.

facing_west · 27-04-2015 10:40AM

kippy wrote: »

The public sector as a whole are not Labour supporters and there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that the block as a whole vote en-mass for one particular party.

i said all parties vigorously court their vote , they are an enormous block , three hundred thousand and those people all have relatives who may vote based on their niece a nurse having gotten a pay cut or a pay rise

they are the base of the labour party and labour are in terrible trouble so need their base to come out in some shape or form on election day

facing_west · 27-04-2015 10:42AM

kippy wrote: »

I'd agree with that 100%.

most would not however , we are an incredibly parochial people in outlook when it comes to resources and how money should be spent on them , im from rural ireland but firmly believe that rural ireland has too much spent upon it

ratracer · 27-04-2015 11:05AM

facing_west wrote: »

their is a pretty easy solution to the issue of class sized , close a tonne of rural primary schools , the one i went to currently has less than twenty pupils yet has two teachers , were it to be closed , the furthest any kid would have to travel to the nearest larger school is three miles , there is a second school the other end of the parish which also has less than twenty pupils , again if it was closed , the furthest the students would have to travel to the school in the village centre ( which has a hundred and only built a new school five years ago ) is three miles

a major problem in this country is people expecting every possible service on their doorstep

But closing those two schools then puts another 40 or so pupils into the other school, further increasing class sizes? The teachers might be freed up, but then space becomes limited!

Quin_Dub · 27-04-2015 11:05AM

dxhound2005 wrote: »

What performance goals would you set for firemen? Or nurses?

The increment system should not be part of this discussion. It would be easy for the employer to say to a fireman you didn't put out enough fires last year so you stay on your starting pay. Forever.

Easy -

Attendance , Completion of required training. Getting above X grade in audits etc.

Everything can be measured.

27-04-2015 11:08AM

facing_west wrote: »

their is a pretty easy solution to the issue of class sized , close a tonne of rural primary schools , the one i went to currently has less than twenty pupils yet has two teachers , were it to be closed , the furthest any kid would have to travel to the nearest larger school is three miles , there is a second school the other end of the parish which also has less than twenty pupils , again if it was closed , the furthest the students would have to travel to the school in the village centre ( which has a hundred and only built a new school five years ago ) is three miles

a major problem in this country is people expecting every possible service on their doorstep

I would very much disagree, it is important for communities to maintain their facilities and one thing is keeping their primary schools open.

as_mo_bhosca · 27-04-2015 11:31AM

facing_west wrote: »

their is a pretty easy solution to the issue of class sized , close a tonne of rural primary schools , the one i went to currently has less than twenty pupils yet has two teachers , were it to be closed , the furthest any kid would have to travel to the nearest larger school is three miles , there is a second school the other end of the parish which also has less than twenty pupils , again if it was closed , the furthest the students would have to travel to the school in the village centre ( which has a hundred and only built a new school five years ago ) is three miles

a major problem in this country is people expecting every possible service on their doorstep

I totally agree with you on this. There are some remote places where small schools are justified but not in the majority of cases. Children in these schools cost multiples of the amount it costs to educate children in "full size" schools. Keep the number of teachers in the country the same, reduce class size. You could also increase the amount of money schools get to run the school. Currently no where near enough.

Public sector pay increase

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