Public sector pay increase

barneystinson · 26-04-2015 09:34PM

To Elland Back wrote: »

So the talented and capable go elsewhere, leaving those with fewer options behind to run the Department. With a recruiting embargo, you think giving the remaining personnel a pay rise sorts the problem?

Recruitment embargo is over.

Even if it wasn't, would it not make sense to pay a reasonable rate to stop the brain drain.

Iwasfrozen · 26-04-2015 09:38PM

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I very much doubt you would get anyone to work as a principal in a 60 teacher school for that kind of money.

I envision the 50k cap to be a base salary, principals would get the 50k and a bonus based on the size of the school they're managing as they do now.

To Elland Back · 26-04-2015 09:55PM

barneystinson wrote: »

Recruitment embargo is over.

Even if it wasn't, would it not make sense to pay a reasonable rate to stop the brain drain.

But isn't that the whole point of this debate? Pay a good rate for capable people and do away with the journeymen.

evolving_doors · 26-04-2015 09:59PM

stefanovich wrote: »

Just a crazy thought... How about giving a pay rise based on performance rather than across the board. Might encourage some of them to pull the finger out. And in all fairness 2% is crap. Give 5/6 % to those few doing a good job.

Oh pay related performance you mean?

That went down a treat amongst the public for Irish Water didn't it?

Pay Related Performance.... It'll end up being called bonuses, and then you'll be back cribbing about people being payed bonuses for just doing their job!

But shur go on anyway... how would you do it?

Dentists --> Payed by the amount of extractions!
Nurses---> The speed at which patients are discharged (alive or dead).
Bus Drivers---> How fast they can get around the route.
Gardai---> How many Criminials they get to court
Teachers---> The amount of A's in the JC/LC
Social Workers---> The amount of cases resolved
Fireman---> Amount of fires put out

deseil · 26-04-2015 10:01PM

smurgen wrote: »

I'd argue fire services and military are underpaid and teacher are overpaid.that said the total spend on education sound be sustained while I see no need why the total spend on military should increase as a % of gdp.

I can assure you the fire services are the most well paid, and looked after group of the whole public sector.

evolving_doors · 26-04-2015 10:08PM

deseil wrote: »

I can assure you the fire services are the most well paid, and looked after group of the whole public sector.

And why shouldn't they be.. they would literally put their life on the line to save someone they don't know! Not to mention dealing with horrific deaths on an occasional basis..much more than you or I will ever see in our entire lives.

as_mo_bhosca · 26-04-2015 10:10PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Quite a lot. Given the working conditions I don't believe a cap at 45-50k will lead to a shortage of teachers.

You should try working in some of the conditions that I have taught in for that. No way I'd stick at it if I was capped at 45k for the rest of my career. You obviously have no idea what the job entails.

smurgen · 26-04-2015 10:13PM

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Oh pay related performance you mean?

That went down a treat amongst the public for Irish Water didn't it?

Pay Related Performance.... It'll end up being called bonuses, and then you'll be back cribbing about people being payed bonuses for just doing their job!

But shur go on anyway... how would you do it?

Dentists --> Payed by the amount of extractions!
Nurses---> The speed at which patients are discharged (alive or dead).
Bus Drivers---> How fast they can get around the route.
Gardai---> How many Criminials they get to court
Teachers---> The amount of A's in the JC/LC
Social Workers---> The amount of cases resolved
Fireman---> Amount of fires put out

there are many complex performance evaluation methods in the private sector that work just fine. why the resistance?

evolving_doors · 26-04-2015 10:14PM

ANyhow , this is all apples and oranges with averages.. comparing a Hairdresser to a brain surgeon. Or a CEO to an ambulance driver.

Back to some of the reasons why the disparity:

2009 CSO employment survey:

"....on average, public sector employees had higher educational attainment, longer service, were older, and were more likely to be in professional jobs than their counterparts in the private sector ".

So here's the shocker:

The more qualifications you have.... the more you get paid.

Iwasfrozen · 26-04-2015 10:15PM

as_mo_bhosca wrote: »

You should try working in some of the conditions that I have taught in for that. No way I'd stick at it if I was capped at 45k for the rest of my career. You obviously have no idea what the job entails.

What else would you do? It's very well saying people won't stick at it but then they'd need another degree. And as said before there is a greater supply of teachers than demand, there would be plenty to take your place if you did go.

ratracer · 26-04-2015 10:15PM

deseil wrote: »

I can assure you the fire services are the most well paid, and looked after group of the whole public sector.

By what yard stick do you measure that against? A link to something maybe??

evolving_doors · 26-04-2015 10:19PM

smurgen wrote: »

there are many complex performance evaluation methods in the private sector that work just fine. why the resistance?

That's the private sector.

Here's a definition of "profession":

"A profession is a vocation founded upon specialized educational training, the purpose of which is to supply objective counsel and service to others, for a direct and definite compensation, wholly apart from expectation of other business gain."

smurgen wrote: »

there are many complex performance evaluation methods in the private sector that work just fine. why the resistance?

But go on, outline some way to attach a performance element to the public sector. It can't be that complex BTW. My version is very simplistic.

Dentists --> Payed by the amount of extractions!
Nurses---> The speed at which patients are discharged (alive or dead).
Bus Drivers---> How fast they can get around the route.
Gardai---> How many Criminials they get to court
Teachers---> The amount of A's in the JC/LC
Social Workers---> The amount of cases resolved
Fireman---> Amount of fires put out

But the one you've suggested ... have you suggested one yet?

deseil · 26-04-2015 10:21PM

Gebgbegb wrote: »

And why shouldn't they be.. they would literally put their life on the line to save someone they don't know! Not to mention dealing with horrific deaths on an occasional basis..much more than you or I will ever see in our entire lives.

Exactly, they deserve every penny!

CiDeRmAn · 26-04-2015 10:22PM

I'd be happy to see performance reviews brought into my public sector workplace, to weed out the dead weight.
It's been on the cards for a while but hard to implement.
Unlike the private sector it's all stick and no carrot, as we can discipline people for a job done badly but can't give bonuses.

smurgen · 26-04-2015 10:27PM

Gebgbegb wrote: »

That's the private sector.

Here's the definition of profession:

"A profession is a vocation founded upon specialized educational training, the purpose of which is to supply objective counsel and service to others, for a direct and definite compensation, wholly apart from expectation of other business gain."

But go on, outline some way to attach a performance element to the public sector. It can't be that complex BTW. My version is very simplistic.

Dentists --> Payed by the amount of extractions!
Nurses---> The speed at which patients are discharged (alive or dead).
Bus Drivers---> How fast they can get around the route.
Gardai---> How many Criminials they get to court
Teachers---> The amount of A's in the JC/LC
Social Workers---> The amount of cases resolved
Fireman---> Amount of fires put out

But the one you've suggested ... have you suggested one yet?

in not an expert in any one of those fields so I couldn't comment.however I guess panels of expert in those fields could come up with a performance rating system. Also there wouldn't be one variable on which performance would be measured. We are measured in my job using subjective and objective evaluations. Speed , errors, total profit margin all being objective and subjective from supervisors and managers. these would be categories with items such as client attentiveness and interdepartmental relationship management. also clients are sometimes surveyed about their experience with us.it's a time consuming evaluation but measuring performance on simple variables as suggest by yourself would lead to a corruption of the system.

smurgen · 26-04-2015 10:32PM

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

I'd be happy to see performance reviews brought into my public sector workplace, to weed out the dead weight.
It's been on the cards for a while but hard to implement.
Unlike the private sector it's all stick and no carrot, as we can discipline people for a job done badly but can't give bonuses.

this is sometimes the problem in my job also as people only tend to take notice when something goes wrong! it's very hard to prove your worth on a day to day basis.this is why consistence is key. A person who is always ready to deal with problems and consistently turns out good work will more likely to be promoted.or at least I hope they are!

as_mo_bhosca · 26-04-2015 10:42PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What else would you do? It's very well saying people won't stick at it but then they'd need another degree. And as said before there is a greater supply of teachers than demand, there would be plenty to take your place if you did go.

And the cycle of people leaving would continue. Someone else posted on this thread about the brain drain. Luckily for society and services, you are not in charge of pay.
As for what I'd do, move to a career that would adequately reward you in line with your experience and service. It'd be worth starting training again than stay on your ludicrous pay scales.

Iwasfrozen · 26-04-2015 11:38PM

as_mo_bhosca wrote: »

And the cycle of people leaving would continue. Someone else posted on this thread about the brain drain. Luckily for society and services, you are not in charge of pay.
As for what I'd do, move to a career that would adequately reward you in line with your experience and service. It'd be worth starting training again than stay on your ludicrous pay scales.

I don't agree everyone would leave, as I've said before the teaching profession is over subscribed. Yes some would leave but they can be replaced and in the unlikely circumstance where schools are finding it impossible to fill positions the pay could be increased.

barneystinson · 27-04-2015 12:00AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't agree everyone would leave, as I've said before the teaching profession is over subscribed. Yes some would leave but they can be replaced and in the unlikely circumstance where schools are finding it impossible to fill positions the pay could be increased.

You're not really selling me the idea, IWF...

It's not even so much the problem of who would leave - it's the problem that if teaching becomes seen as a shîte job with shîte pay & conditions (like how I see it portrayed on US TV), within 10 years what happens to the calibre of people willing to work as teachers...

joe swanson · 27-04-2015 12:05AM

I really hate the way a lot of media push an 'average wage' in certain sectors. An average wage is far from average.

I knows number of front line emergency services and I can tell you they don't get the "average wage" .

Also the indo pushing it as a pay rise when its nothing of the sort. The unions need to band together and demand nothing less than full restoration of pay.

Señor Fancy Pants · 27-04-2015 12:12AM

Dustin Refined Flowerbed wrote: »

Now tell me, do you know ANYONE in the private sector who would work for an over time allowance of €47 for a 24 hour weekend (including holiday weekends) shift?... Not €47 per hour ~ €47 for the entire shift.

I think that after deductions we would come out with just less than a Euro an hour. Sooooo, between getting to and from work and if you bring your own rations, we are actually down money by working a 24hr shift.

But the likes of us aren't in it for the money, we always knew we wouldn't be rich. Being happy and being able to pay for what you have is the main thing.

The job is the job. There are easy days and there are hard days and when they are hard they are really hard

People think that we can sit on our ass for 21+ years and not get the boot then live like kings on a pension. We get yearly appraisals (sometimes 2 or 3) that are used for and against us. If you've been a bold boy you can get turfed out. You have to pass an annual fitness test (sometimes multiple times). If you fail it a few times you can be medically boarded and turfed out. You are eligible for random drug testing, fail and you are most likely turfed out (fully agree with this). Get in trouble with the cops, you can be turfed out. Say anything on social media, it can be used against you.

There are plenty of ways to turf us out. It's only a secure environment if you jump through the hoops.

I signed up for an initial 5 years and I was expected to do a certain amount of things in that time to be offered a new contract. I was further lucky enough to have been offered an additional 4, 3 and 9 years. All the while jumping through various hoops to keep my job. In reality, it wasn't an easy thing to do.

It's tougher on the families than it is on the troops. Having a partner that's away for anything from 24hrs to 6/12 months. Somedays Up at 0300 and not back until 2100. Regularly missing weddings, christenings, birthdays, funerals and Christmas's because you have to work. Even things like your friends heading off travelling for a year....at least they will Skype ya!

When I hit 21 years service I will be 39. It's mad to think I can be drawing a pension at that age. It will have been 21 exciting years, full of pride, full of seeing and doing things that a lot of people will never see or do.

But jaysis, my body is broken from it. It's in a heap but I'm still happy. Il still take the 2% though.

Iwasfrozen · 27-04-2015 12:17AM

barneystinson wrote: »

You're not really selling me the idea, IWF...

It's not even so much the problem of who would leave - it's the problem that if teaching becomes seen as a shîte job with shîte pay & conditions (like how I see it portrayed on US TV), within 10 years what happens to the calibre of people willing to work as teachers...

We set minimum calibre in university not in the pay packet. Any teacher who can pass their exams should be high calibre, if not the exams aren't hard enough.

as_mo_bhosca · 27-04-2015 12:22AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

We set minimum calibre in university not in the pay packet. Any teacher who can pass their exams should be high calibre, if not the exams aren't hard enough.

You really have no idea what it's like. Under your pay scale there would be little or no senior teachers who hold masters degrees. I've worked with quite a few. Who would mentor the younger, lower paid teachers? Can't imagine working in some of the disadvantaged schools I've worked in without the sorry and advice of these higher paid teachers.
Ever heard of the university curve by the way?

Iwasfrozen · 27-04-2015 12:54AM

as_mo_bhosca wrote: »

You really have no idea what it's like. Under your pay scale there would be little or no senior teachers who hold masters degrees. I've worked with quite a few. Who would mentor the younger, lower paid teachers? Can't imagine working in some of the disadvantaged schools I've worked in without the sorry and advice of these higher paid teachers.

Are you saying there would be no senior teachers or not senior teachers holding masters degrees? Either are a gross exageration, I have no doubt some senior teachers would leave if their salary was capped at 50k. Most however would not as senior teachers, senior workers in general, cannot easily pay the costs of re-education and fictional unemployment before they get settled in another area. Especially if they have children to put through college.

As for mentoring, teachers should graduate from uni with the skills needed to do their job, that's why we train them for two years.

scary · 27-04-2015 01:01AM

[QUOTE=As for mentoring, teachers should graduate from uni with the skills needed to do their job, that's why we train them for two years.[/QUOTE]

absolute rubbish, do you really expect anybody to qualify from college and start a job and expect them to be proficient in that job straight away? your whole arguments are based on ideals not the real world.

Iwasfrozen · 27-04-2015 01:06AM

scary wrote: »

absolute rubbish, do you really expect anybody to qualify from college and start a job and expect them to be proficient in that job straight away? your whole arguments are based on ideals not the real world.

Every new teacher fresh out of college in Ireland will have at least two years of experience teaching in a classroom so yes, I expect them to be proficient.

If they aren't, after two years of experience the colleges aren't doing their job and perhaps their funding should be looked at.

scary · 27-04-2015 01:11AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Every new teacher fresh out of college in Ireland will have at least two years of experience teaching in a classroom so yes, I expect them to be proficient.

If they aren't, after two years of experience the colleges aren't doing their job and perhaps their funding should be looked at.

like I said you're all about ideals not the real world, the training placement could be in a nice lovely school in a nice lovely area, when you have to get a job you could end up anywhere and dependent on the area it brings a whole new situation that you may never have dealt with and mentoring is vital for this.

Iwasfrozen · 27-04-2015 01:31AM

scary wrote: »

like I said you're all about ideals not the real world, the training placement could be in a nice lovely school in a nice lovely area, when you have to get a job you could end up anywhere and dependent on the area it brings a whole new situation that you may never have dealt with and mentoring is vital for this.

Of course, and in extenuating circumstances you could expect things ike this but the above poster was trying to claim there would be no senior teachers left to mentor if we put a very modest cap of 50k on their salaries.

barneystinson · 27-04-2015 01:39AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Of course, and in extenuating circumstances you could expect things ike this but the above poster was trying to claim there would be no senior teachers left to mentor if we put a very modest cap of 50k on their salaries.

What age are you IWF, you strike me as very young and not very worldly?

What's your particular beef with teachers anyway, why don't you rewrite the rest of public sector pay scales while you're at it?

Iwasfrozen · 27-04-2015 01:43AM

barneystinson wrote: »

What's your particular beef with teachers anyway, why don't you rewrite the rest of public sector pay scales while you're at it?

I have no particular beef with teachers we just got on the subject. I do think the public sector as a whole is over paid but a lot of these problems could be solved by workforce de-unionization.

Public sector pay increase

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