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A Slow Journey to Faster Times

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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,272 ✭✭✭Dubgal72


    PB? Well done :) Hope that beer is going down nicely. Looking forward to your report and analysis.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,606 ✭✭✭RedRunner


    Great result P. These Sub 3s are becoming second nature to you now!


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,983 ✭✭✭Duanington


    Nice one P, marathon PBs ain't easy! Well done, look forward to the report


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,610 ✭✭✭yaboya1


    I'm going to get this out of the way while it's still fresh in my mind.
    Then I'm going to find some German friends to get pi**ed with!


    History

    Having broken the 3 hour barrier in Berlin, I had ideas in my head that something around 2:50 should be possible next time based on my times over the shorter distances. I just felt I needed to get the basework in, so continued to follow the HR training that I'd begun last summer.


    Training

    Racked up 825 miles in training since January 1st, also throwing a few races in to see where I was at. Ran very similar times to my pb's at 5k, 10k & HM, while scoring a tiny pb in the Raheny 5m. Also ran ok in the Trim 10m race, which was sandwiched between two other races so could be excused anyway. All the time I was continuing my steady sessions twice weekly along with plenty of other mileage to back them up. Got 5 runs of 20+m in before I left for Germany and felt confident of a big run if everything went my way.


    Pre Race

    No issues at all in the lead up injury wise. Every part of my body seemed to be playing ball, giving me nothing to worry about. Runs in the final week before the race were a bit of a struggle, but I think that's the norm for everyone at that stage. Flew out of Dublin on Thursday afternoon and was settled into my hotel early that evening. Nice sleep that night and some final shake-out miles on Friday afternoon after I'd been to the Expo for my race pack. Kept myself occupied with a few things on Saturday, all the while keeping hydrated and eating plenty of carbs in each meal. By the time I got back to my room on Saturday evening I was carbed up, hydrated and ready for the race. I had slept for 10 hours on Friday evening and followed that up with a solid five on Saturday. Arising this morning I looked out the window and saw we had been granted the perfect marathon running conditions. Chilly with some light drizzle. I started to feel a bit sick with the excitement. I knew now there would be no excuses and I began to expect a massive run. I arrived at the starting area in plenty of time to drop off my bag, get in a final toilet stop and a do a little bit of a warm up. At about 8:30 I headed for my pen (B) and noticed when I got there that I would be starting literally 5 yards behind the elites. I really couldn't wait to get going. Ten minutes after the wheelchairs were let go, we were on our way.


    The Plan

    No idea what weather to expect for this, originally assuming it would probably be very warm. Chicago is the only marathon I've raced in the last 3 years (coming back from injury) when the temperatures hadn't hit the mid 20's. Deciding to run by feel to suit conditions, rather than being a slave to the Garmin seemed like a good tactic. Stuck with this strategy in the hope that the pace would be quicker than envisaged in the more favourable weather. I wore the Garmin but would try to ignore it if possible, instead using my €10 Lidl Casio to determine the pace. Left the Garmin in miles to resist any temptation of constant glancing (course in kilometres). My HADD training suggests that when fully trained at certain heart rates I should be able to hold a consistent pace for pretty much a full marathon. I haven't mastered the required level yet (165bpm), but recent runs at 155bpm have been fairly solid so I decided to try and hold that effort. This should also make for a more enjoyable race as I could take everything in around me, rather than constantly checking the watch to see how fast I was moving.


    The Race

    Start-21.1k

    Gun went off and I was up to what I felt was the right effort level pretty quickly. No problem whatsoever with congestion. There were already big crowds lining the streets and I enjoyed the cheers and magnificent atmosphere that was evident as we began our extended sightseeing tour of Hamburg. Passing the first km marker, a quick glance at the Casio showed me 4:08. I knew 4:00min/km was 2:50 pace and I was slightly above that, but I didn't want to push any harder for the moment being so early feeling I might pay for it later in the race. The only time I looked at the Garmin in the first half of the race was when it beeped for mile 1. I saw 6:26 and was happy, knowing that was close enough to 2:50 pace. I was expecting the gross time to be close to 8:00 on the Casio after the 2nd km but that went by in around 4:08 too, a trend that continued right up to halfway. Around 4:10min/km on average. Steady as a rock. I knew that was slower than was needed for 2:50, but also felt exactly like the guy in the HADD example did. Felt I could go all day at that pace, but any faster I'd out on my feet and wouldn't last. KU has alluded to it before in the past. Considering this was the first half of the race I wasn't going to risk that.

    *One thing to note here is that I know I can go faster and have run shorter races much quicker, but I do seem to have a decent ability for identifying the pace I can get a certain trip in. I could have sped up alright, but not if I wanted to maintain that for more than 26 miles.

    Anyway I was enjoying this race far more than I have in any of my most recent marathons (Dublin excluded). The crowds were unreal. The streets were lined five deep in places. They completely covered the many bridges we passed below and sat on the dock walls as the road dropped a level. At that stage we were surrounded on all sides, but because of the descent it felt like they were above us too. The noise was incredible. There were bands, loudspeakers etc. as well, but the crowd themselves were extremely vocal and drowned those out in most cases. It was very like Berlin but I actually felt the support was even better here. We lost them for a while when we ran through an underground tunnel, but they made up for that when we re-emerged in the heart of the city centre. I wasn't even noticing the km's ticking by at this stage, but checked the watch (quickly multiplying by 4:10 each time) to make sure I hadn't slowed. Up until about halfway you could have set your clock by me.
    Through halfway in around 1:28 (21.1 x 4:10 = 1:27:55 :D)


    21.1k-40k

    I would have liked to break the race down into more distinctive sections, but the truth is I find it hard to differentiate certain points as I barely looked at the Garmin. I remember noticing while studying the course map yesterday that we spent the first 10k doing a little loop of some local neighbourhoods, before passing through the city and heading North. We then turned back South around the 30/31k mark. I really liked the idea of this, knowing in my head that as soon as we made that turn (circa 20 miles), it was all heading straight towards the finish rather than any unnecessary twisting & turning. Somewhere around halfway I seemed to drop half a minute out of nowhere. I never felt like I slowed, but I obviously did as the kms were now 30/40 seconds off the multiples of 4:10. I already knew by now that I was nowhere near 2:50, but keeping the current pace would still give me a nice pb a few minutes above that. Between halfway and the turn back home we passed through some park areas. These were the loneliest parts of the whole route with only the odd spectator out supporting. They still did their best, but we had been spoiled up to that point and their efforts paled in comparison. I felt like we were climbing a bit in this area, but I'm not sure we were. I think I was just starting to hurt and looking to justify the slowdown to myself. I continued to gradually ship more time, but didn't feel I could accelerate without paying for it soon afterwards (basically exactly like the guy in the HADD example again). Although it sounds hypocritical, I was actually feeling quite good physically. A minor pain had appeared in my left glute, but after 20 miles something is going to start hurting and that's what it was for me. Barring that though, my legs, body etc. were fine. I had taken 2 gels up to this point and didn't feel like I needed another, but I gulped down a quarter of one just ahead of the next water station just in case. At this stage I was about three minutes down on 4:10 minute kilometres. I was still able to do the maths here (worrying considering I was now approaching 23/24 miles) and was thinking to myself 42 x 4:10 = 175 minutes (2:55). Not going to hit that, but just need to maintain the pace for a new pb in the 2:58's (adding in the final 195m). Passed over the 39k mat with this in mind while still enjoying the atmosphere and in much less pain than a fair few of those around me.


    40k-Finish

    I was beginning to hurt all over now, like you're supposed to in a marathon. I had a look at my Garmin to see the pace above 7:00min/mile. The fact that I could feel I was slowing was the only reason I looked. It was at this point I started thinking I might not even pb. I knew I had the sub 3 in the bag, but I needed to get a move on to be sure of beating the Berlin time. There was a fair chance I'd struggle to match that with only 11 seconds to spare once the clock hit 2:59. I started to panic a bit and almost instantly upped the pace. Got the 25th mile back below 7:00 (6:57) and kept it going for the final full mile (6:53). I was fully convinced at this stage that I was going to be comfortably in the 2:58's. Then we hit the 42k mark with supposedly 195m to go. Still a bit of road though, before a right turn and a long enough straight to the line. "F*ck! I've got f*ck all time left. We should be finished by now". I moved out and started sprinting past people. Around the bend and up onto the red carpet they had laid out. Gave a few fist pumps and arms aloft for the finish photo as I could see I had beaten my Berlin time on the finishing clock. 5:42min/mile pace for the final 600 yards though. This is not the last 150 yards of a 5k. 0.35 of a mile in 1:58. How the f*ck was I able to do that? How much had I actually got left? No wonder I wasn't hurting. It's a pb, but Jesus it should be a bigger one!


    Official 5k Splits: http://hamburg.r.mikatiming.de/2015/?content=detail&fpid=list&pid=list&idp=999999074FFEE100002422A6&lang=EN&event=HML&page=18&search%5Bsex%5D=M&search_event=HML


    Post Race

    I was relieved to finally get over the line. I knew I'd scored a miniscule pb as the clock wasn't even on 2:59:11 when I went under it. Gun time wasn't going to take a lot off considering I'd started right behind the elites. Continued walking through the finish area, grabbing some water on the way. The next bit would make you well up. As myself and others who'd finished around me made our way onwards, the volunteers formed a guard of honour on the way to the medal tables applauding us as we passed until we had them draped around our necks. I actually felt like I'd won the race! Unreal. Sometimes people just make your day. Moved further on to endless supplies of fruit, pretzels, soup, electrolytes, muesli bars and other stuff I can't think of. After that you've got a hall full of free beer, showers and massages. Hammock like chairs to relax in and loads of tables and chairs for groups. No queuing either, although I'd imagine that changed a little bit later as it got busier. Bag collection was a little slower, but that's being harsh because everything else was so well organised. I had a small bit of fruit, before grabbing a shower and having four beers before I left. I noticed I had no cramping issues changing clothes and when I eventually got to the U-Bahn station I was gliding up and down the stairs like I hadn't had a race. I'm starting to wonder if I tried hard enough?


    Verdict

    This is possibly the greatest race I've ever taken part in. It doesn't have any bad points. I can't remember how much the entry fee was, but I think it was pretty cheap. The course is ideal PB material, especially when you get weather conditions as good as today's. Flat, fast and a beautiful surface to run on. The whole 42.2km seemed to be on almost brand new road. It's probably as close as you'll come to running a marathon on the track without actually running on the track. As already mentioned, the support is unreal. It's easily accessible locally by public transport (day of the race) and easy to get to from Ireland. It's also a beautiful city and well worth visiting (and running around :)) anyway. Berlin is great, but I think this might shade it. Overall standard is good too, but it's a small enough race (around 20,000) not to suffer from congestion. Today's London winner won this two years ago before going on to win there and in Chicago last October. He also holds the current course record. I wasn't mad about the relay running alongside it, but that's just me being narky when you keep getting fresh as paint runners overtaking you just after the changeover points making you feel like sh*te :pac:. In fairness they have totally separate areas of the course for the changeovers and and their own separate finish line, so it doesn't interfere at all with the marathon/marathon runners.


    Thoughts

    A lot to ponder. Where do I start?
    This is the distance I'd like to be best at. The problem is that all available evidence strongly suggests it's the distance I am BY FAR the worst at. I've exclusively tried to work on matching up my marathon time to my times over the shorter distances. But I still can't do it, even in the most ideal marathon running conditions I got today. Maybe I'm just not a very good marathoner?

    If I want to believe the above (which may well be true) I may give up running altogether, so I've come up with a positive (possibly deluded) slant on it. In Berlin last September I was flat out and felt like I came close to death to run 2:59:11 (on admittedly a much hotter day). Today I ran what I felt was a relatively comfortable 2:59:04. I'm not saying I could have gone an awful lot quicker today (quicker maybe, but not by much), but I'm still only mastering 155bpm in my HADD training. If I do get that up to what I'm expected to be able to run a marathon at (165bpm), maybe, just maybe I might start to see some sort of correlation between my marathon time and my times over the HM and below.
    My next marathon is in New York in November, so I'm going to continue to chip away training using the HADD method until I feel I've mastered the above heart rate. I had planned on running New York comfortably anyway. If I do this and it doesn't work, then I'll try something different (then I'll give up :D).

    As an aside, contrary to what it might read/sound like, I'm actually really happy with today's run. I've never felt so comfortable for so long in a race of that length and I've also managed to pb while going sub 3 again. It's obviously not what I was originally hoping for, but I've learned recently you need to enjoy each and every pb when they come (no matter how small), so that's what I'll do


    Now I'm off for some German food & beer :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,121 ✭✭✭tang1


    Superb report, very well done again P.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭Runchick


    Fantastic report, really makes me want to do that marathon! Well done, enjoy the beers :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,438 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    Very interesting reflections as always, P. Looks like a well run race to me! You had plenty to do at the end and delivered the PB in style.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,057 ✭✭✭Pacing Mule


    Your race reports are always well anticipated and this one once again shows why. Well done again P.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,936 ✭✭✭annapr


    Great report, P, sounds like a fantastic event. Your slant on your own performance makes sense to me, you sound like you were so much more relaxed throughout this one, other than the sprint finish of course :). And still getting a sub-3 PB!


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,016 ✭✭✭Itziger


    Good stuff man. Interesting read alright. Especially for someone like me, as our 10k and Half times are similar. My Full is still way worse than yours but I'd like to think I can get nearer in the next one or two, before you get the hang of the 42.2k and kick on.

    What your experience really reinforces though is that there ain't no guarantees with the distance and the conversion. I haven't followed your log much lately and one reason is all the posters saying ****e like, 'Go smash it P. 2,50 easy'. That drives me crazy. 2.50 is 'easy' (read 'incredibly tough') once you've run it, not before.

    From your race times, your training and what you post, I reckon you'll crack this marathon thing yet. You're relatively new to proper training and injury-free prep. A lot of runners seem to find that it takes a few years and races for the benefits to kick in. Unlike some of us, you have age on your side.

    Be nice to share a beer in NYC when you've just 'smashed' 2.50 and I've just 'smashed' 3.00.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,643 ✭✭✭ThePiedPiper


    Well done on yet another good marathon yaboya1. Your approach to training and racing has been methodical, calm and patient over the past 18 months. I would think a little more of the same could pay dividends again in the marathon. don't know enough about HADD to make any comments on it to be honest, but all I'd say is that it took me 10+ marathons to figure out what works best for me, so I think you're bang on the money giving HADD more time. The gains in 18 months are massive, maybe some tweaking to bounce on again.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,583 ✭✭✭skeleton_boy


    Well done yaboya. Really enjoyed that report, has moved Hamburg up a few places in my list of to do marathons. Love the attitude about you time and glad you had a blast running today. Enjoy the beers :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,134 ✭✭✭Tom Joad


    Well done on the PB. Nice report too as always!


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭Bungy Girl


    Great report. Loved the sprint finish! Enjoy the recovery.


  • Registered Users Posts: 572 ✭✭✭Calvin Johnson


    Well done. I know the feeling of working really hard for months for a tiny marathon PB but it sounds like you were more comfortable this time.

    Would you consider joining a club? I know you have this thing about not being able to make every session but it might be the the way to "make the leap."

    Anyway hope you're happy with your experience in Hamburg. Lots of us would be delighted to be able to run sub 3 and be a little disappointed about it!


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,610 ✭✭✭yaboya1


    Itziger wrote: »
    Good stuff man. Interesting read alright. Especially for someone like me, as our 10k and Half times are similar. My Full is still way worse than yours but I'd like to think I can get nearer in the next one or two, before you get the hang of the 42.2k and kick on.

    What your experience really reinforces though is that there ain't no guarantees with the distance and the conversion. I haven't followed your log much lately and one reason is all the posters saying ****e like, 'Go smash it P. 2,50 easy'. That drives me crazy. 2.50 is 'easy' (read 'incredibly tough') once you've run it, not before.

    From your race times, your training and what you post, I reckon you'll crack this marathon thing yet. You're relatively new to proper training and injury-free prep. A lot of runners seem to find that it takes a few years and races for the benefits to kick in. Unlike some of us, you have age on your side.

    Be nice to share a beer in NYC when you've just 'smashed' 2.50 and I've just 'smashed' 3.00.

    If I 'smash' 2:50 we can share a few beers, but you won't be buying ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,610 ✭✭✭yaboya1


    Lots of us would be delighted to be able to run sub 3 and be a little disappointed about it!

    Aah I'm not disappointed.
    I just know think I have a much faster time in me over that distance. Until I go and do it though that's just my own deluded opinion.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,016 ✭✭✭Itziger


    yaboya1 wrote: »
    If I 'smash' 2:50 we can share a few beers, but you won't be buying ;)

    Don't worry, if I go 2.59.59.xx, you'll be in drink till Mrs Itz drags me away. (Then again, that'd probably be about 2 beers :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,526 ✭✭✭Killerz


    You've sold the Hamburg marathon to me.

    Oh ya - and nice running too :):)


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,610 ✭✭✭yaboya1


    Killerz wrote: »
    You've sold the Hamburg marathon to me.

    It's great and all but it's no St Anne's parkrun :)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,589 ✭✭✭aero2k


    Well done Peter, if you're running sub 3 and feeling comfortable, then there's loads more to come. Great report, reading it I was almost sorry I didn't wait a couple of weeks...
    yaboya1 wrote: »
    Aah I'm not disappointed.
    I just know think I have a much faster time in me over that distance. Until I go and do it though that's just my own deluded opinion.

    I reckon a healthy dose of delusion is essential in meeting your goals. It helps you believe that impossible things are possible, and once you believe, you'll go and put in the hard work to make them happen.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,447 ✭✭✭FBOT01


    yaboya1 wrote: »
    Aah I'm not disappointed.
    I just know think I have a much faster time in me over that distance. Until I go and do it though that's just my own deluded opinion.

    Great running P and very interesting report.....made the tea and toast last night before sitting down to enjoy it:)

    I think you are dead right and not delusional at all. I think you have a much faster time in you over this distant too. IMHO this result may only be a small PB but the manner of the performance is a huge step forward. You went into the race relaxed and rolled with the punchs always being in control and enjoying the experience yet still delivered a PB. If you stick on the road you are on and master the 165 bpm and then target a race as is the HADD system from what I have read on your log, the improved time will follow. That may be New York or may have to wait til Boston but with the base you have been building over the last 18 months and assuming you continue to apply yourself the way you have done, it will happen. To be fair even if you dumped HADD and went back to more a specific marathon training program you are in a much better place now to move forward from.

    While I said above you are not delusional I would caveat that by saying if you actually think that you can step away from the marathon with unfinished business you might just be;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,610 ✭✭✭yaboya1


    FBOT01 wrote: »
    While I said above you are not delusional I would caveat that by saying if you actually think that you can step away from the marathon with unfinished business you might just be;)

    We all say things we don't mean in the immediate aftermath of a marathon :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,983 ✭✭✭Duanington


    Great report P, honest and informative as always....it really does highlight the dangers that we can sometimes make ( not you of course) when assuming the translation of shorter distance times into full marathon times.

    Looking forward to the next chapter :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭overpronator


    Great great report Peter and well done on the PB, even though i know you feel more was there, thats the very mindset that has you breaking 3 (and running so well over the shorter stuff) in the first place. The overriding theme of it for me was how impressively controlled you were throughout, compared to me on Sunday where I was a complete mess over the last 10k. You're playing the long game with your Hadd approach and the true benefits are on the way, I've no doubt that will manifest itself in a sub 2.50


  • Registered Users Posts: 140 ✭✭DukeOfDromada


    Great run and report. The training you are doing will greatly benefit you in the long term. Your speed for the HR levels you are training at currently is impressive and you still have a lot more to go. This points to sub 2:50 and beyond I have no doubt. Just keep up the excellent training you are doing and the times will come. See you in NY (and Boston) :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,119 ✭✭✭Mrs Mc


    Well done on the report and the pb P


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,526 ✭✭✭Killerz


    yaboya1 wrote: »
    It's great and all but it's no St Anne's parkrun :)

    You say all the right things ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,610 ✭✭✭yaboya1


    I got 26.35m on the Garmin last Sunday. Slowly but surely learning to stick to that blue line :):

    11178336_887726777955353_1941755250957882516_n.jpg?oh=cbea65c4338af016d2eb81d72a92f766&oe=559AC75B


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,936 ✭✭✭annapr


    yaboya1 wrote: »
    I got 26.35m on the Garmin last Sunday. Slowly but surely learning to stick to that blue line :):

    11178336_887726777955353_1941755250957882516_n.jpg?oh=cbea65c4338af016d2eb81d72a92f766&oe=559AC75B

    You look better than you did in Berlin too :D


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