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How will you vote in the Marriage Equality referendum? Mod Note Post 1

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Comments

  • #5612
    RayM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,973 ✭✭✭RayM


    blades1982 wrote: »
    you dont have to understand. there is no law except the word of god in my view. and as such, it have everything to do with my faith no, i dont have to allow gays to get married. ill be voteing no.

    I'm sure your imaginary god wouldn't mind if you abstained, rather than voting no. If your superstitions prevent you from supporting marriage equality, that's fair enough. It doesn't mean you have to actively oppose it though.


  • #5613
    blades1982
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 33 ✭blades1982


    LookingFor wrote: »
    We live in a republic, not a theocracy. Civil marriage is common ground. It allows you, currently, agency to engage in marriage per your values. It does give agency to other with regard to their values. To continue to deny that agency requires strong justification. Religious tradition is not good enough to do that. There are many religious people in this country who want to see same sex marriage legalised. The state cannot pick and choose 'relgious sides' without good cause. Marriage is not a finite resource - the extension of this agency to others will not impact on the agency of any other with regard to their marriage values. Where is the respect for conscience and values if it's not a respect for, where possible, a diversity of values and conscience?

    I'm not jumping on you, by the way. I'm just putting it out there if you really want a state that would rationalise public policy based on religious views alone.

    i know. but as a spiritual person, i put my faith before my country. thats my right, and as such my religous views supperceid my patriotioc views. (bad spelling, sorry).


  • #5614
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    blades1982 wrote: »
    if the yes side wins there is nothing i can do, i dont marry people anyway so i woundnt be in a position to refuse a gay marrage.

    So you understand and admit it doesn't effect you in the slights, but you're still going to vote on it?


  • #5615
    blades1982
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 33 ✭blades1982


    RayM wrote: »
    I'm sure your imaginary god wouldn't mind if you abstained, rather than voting no. If your superstitions prevent you from supporting marriage equality, that's fair enough. It doesn't mean you have to actively oppose it though.

    ah, ok, its like that then. please dont continue to insult religion and faith by equating it to superstitions. thats differnt things.


  • #5616
    folamh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 787 ✭✭✭folamh


    LookingFor wrote: »
    We live in a republic, not a theocracy. Civil marriage is common ground. It allows you, currently, agency to engage in marriage per your values. It does not give agency to some others with regard to their values. To continue to deny that agency requires strong justification. Religious tradition is not good enough to do that. There are many religious people in this country who want to see same sex marriage legalised. The state cannot pick and choose 'relgious sides' without good cause. Marriage is not a finite resource - the extension of this agency to others will not impact on the agency of any other with regard to their marriage values. Where is the respect for conscience and values if it's not a respect for, where possible, a diversity of values and conscience?

    I'm not jumping on you, by the way. I'm just putting it out there if you really want a state that would rationalise public policy based on religious views alone.
    That's all well and good for religions which are compatible with secularism.


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  • #5617
    blades1982
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 33 ✭blades1982


    Links234 wrote: »
    So you understand and admit it doesn't effect you in the slights, but you're still going to vote on it?

    i dint say it doesnt effect me. i said im powerless to change it if it goes ahead. it will effect me greatly.


  • #5618
    RayM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,973 ✭✭✭RayM


    blades1982 wrote: »
    ah, ok, its like that then. please dont continue to insult religion and faith by equating it to superstitions. thats differnt things.

    Yes, a superstition is "an excessively credulous belief in and reverence for the supernatural." Whereas religion...

    More drink!

    Hurray!


  • #5619
    B_Wayne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭B_Wayne


    haveringchick wrote: »
    See this is it here. You don't have any way to deal with any even mild criticisms (and God knows im harmless) withour resorting to what amounts to pretty bad attempts at sarcasm.
    Is there any other questions you want me to answer?
    blades1982 wrote: »
    isnt it great how the yes'ers jump on my statement because i have an opposing view ? i dont have to justify my oppinion, the title of this thread is how will you vote. not, dont answer honestly as the opposing side will bellitle your view and call into question your religion.
    Persecution complex much?
    blades1982 wrote: »
    ah, ok, its like that then. please dont continue to insult religion and faith by equating it to superstitions. thats differnt things.
    This really depends on the person's view on religions. I support your right to practise your religion but I'm completely opposed to imposing your beliefs on the citizens of the state.


  • #5620
    LookingFor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,682 ✭✭✭LookingFor


    blades1982 wrote: »
    i know. but as a spiritual person, i put my faith before my country. thats my right, and as such my religous views supperceid my patriotioc views. (bad spelling, sorry).

    That is your right indeed. I personally think it's quite possible to hold personal values about one's own life (and marriage, or whatever), while recognising that imposing conformity to those values on others rather than respecting, where possible, individual agency and equality, is fairly in opposition to a fair society. I know people who have a private view of marriage, and a private preference for one set of family circumstances, who acknowledge that on balance a yes will make things better for more people. It's possible to have nostalgia or even deference for one's own background and values while respecting that people with different circumstances don't necessarily deserve second class treatment with regard to the state.

    I know won't persuade you, so all I'll say is 'peace'. I sincerely hope your agency to pursue marriage is never hung in the balance.


  • #5621
    blades1982
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 33 ✭blades1982


    B_Wayne wrote: »
    Persecution complex much?

    This really depends on the person's view on religions. I support your right to practise your religion but I'm completely opposed to imposing your beliefs on the citizens of the state.

    i am not imposing anything. i am voteing according to my views.


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  • #5622
    blades1982
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 33 ✭blades1982


    LookingFor wrote: »
    That is your right indeed. I personally think it's quite possible to hold personal values about one's own life (and marriage, or whatever), while recognising that imposing conformity to those values on others rather than respecting, where possible, individual agency and equality, is fairly in opposition to a fair society. I know people who have a private view of marriage, and a private preference for one set of family circumstances, who acknowledge that on balance a yes will make things better for more people. It's possible to have nostalgia or even deference for one's own background and values while respecting that people with different circumstances don't necessarily deserve second class treatment with regard to the state.

    I know won't persuade you, so all I'll say is 'peace'. I sincerely hope your agency to pursue marriage is never hung in the balance.

    peace to you too


  • #5623
    freshpopcorn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,817 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    blades1982 wrote: »
    i will be voting no. it is against my religion to accept homosexuality & bisexuality.

    I'm voting Yes and I totally respect you for saying why your voting No. I know a good few No supporters who are against homosexuality and they just hide behind the rights of the child to make them sound like a great person.


  • #5624
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,555 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    blades1982 wrote: »
    i dint say it doesnt effect me. i said im powerless to change it if it goes ahead. it will effect me greatly.

    May I ask how?


  • #5625
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    ch750536 wrote: »
    Was in the car driving, 3 kids in the back, 10, 8 & 7. One spots a sign.

    C10 - Why is there a sign saying 'All kids deserve a mother and father'?
    Me - There is a vote soon. At the moment gay people are not allowed to get married.
    C10 - Why not?
    Me - Its a church law that Ireland kept. Because they can't get married they cant be a family.
    C7 - Thats really unfair.
    C10 - And stupid.

    So, since it is their future we're voting on, they have decided for me.

    What does the 8 year old think?


  • #5626
    InTheTrees
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Isn't it great how people whip out the I'm being victimised card when they want to use their religion as an excuse for discrimination.

    Yes. Its debates like this that really bring out the bigoted and discriminatory nature of organized religion and its getting really tiresome that they think that they should keep getting the pass that religion has traditionally been given.

    If same sex marriage isn't recognized by someones religion then why vote no, why not just abstain?

    :confused:


  • #5627
    G_R
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 5,028 Mod ✭✭✭✭G_R


    RayM wrote: »
    I'm sure your imaginary god wouldn't mind if you abstained, rather than voting no. If your superstitions prevent you from supporting marriage equality, that's fair enough. It doesn't mean you have to actively oppose it though.

    Mod

    You can get your point across without being insulting and condescending.


  • #5628
    blades1982
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 33 ✭blades1982


    sup_dude wrote: »
    May I ask how?

    sure i suppose.

    i suppose it boils down to, it will make me sad.


  • #5629
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    blades1982 wrote: »
    Abd al-Rahman, the son of Abu Sa'id al-Khudri, reported from his father: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: "A man should not see the private parts of another man, and a woman should not see the private parts of another woman, and a man should not lie with another man under one covering, and a woman should not lie with another woman under one covering.

    Muslims shouldn't get gay married, we understand. But where does the Prophet (pbuh) state that Muslims should not recognize civil marriage between non-Muslim gays?

    Muslims shouldn't eat ham, but they don't try to ban rashers and sausages, at least in Ireland. Why should they try to stop the state recognizing Gay civil marriage?


  • #5630
    Madame_Diem
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86 ✭✭Madame_Diem


    blades1982 wrote: »
    Abd al-Rahman, the son of Abu Sa'id al-Khudri, reported from his father: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: "A man should not see the private parts of another man, and a woman should not see the private parts of another woman, and a man should not lie with another man under one covering, and a woman should not lie with another woman under one covering.

    As an atheist and a gay man I would like to personally thank all those liberals and lefties who allowed people like the above poster into my country so I could be discriminated against now from as far as the third world. It will surely be a smack in the face for all you liberals when all the 'new' Irish come out to vote No. Once again thank you.


  • #5631
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    blades1982 wrote: »
    i woundnt be in a position to refuse a gay marrage.

    Any cleric is in a position to refuse to marry whoever they don't want to marry, and the referendum won't change that.


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  • #5632
    blades1982
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 33 ✭blades1982


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    Muslims shouldn't get gay married, we understand. But where does the Prophet (pbuh) state that Muslims should not recognize civil marriage between non-Muslim gays?

    Muslims shouldn't eat ham, but they don't try to ban rashers and sausages, at least in Ireland. Why should they try to stop the state recognizing Gay civil marriage?

    caus we enjoy the smell of it cooking ???.


  • #5633
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    blades1982 wrote: »
    i know. but as a spiritual person, i put my faith before my country. thats my right, and as such my religous views supperceid my patriotioc views. (bad spelling, sorry).

    I'm afraid it isn't actually your right.

    Some of the rules of your religion may be contrary to Civil laws. Saying the rules of a religion are more important leads to things like Sharia Law being used to justify what are crimes including murder.

    It makes no difference what your particular religion is - the State must legislate for all citizens and if all citizens are not treated equally then none of us are truly free - and that includes to practice one's religion.


  • #5634
    blades1982
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 33 ✭blades1982


    Madame_Diem wrote: »
    As an atheist and a gay man I would like to personally thank all those liberals and lefties who allowed people like the above poster into my country so I could be discriminated against now from as far as the third world. It will surely be a smack in the face for all you liberals when all the 'new' Irish come out to vote No. Once again thank you.

    wo there big boy, get off that high horse. i wasnt allowed into this country, i was born a bred here boyo.


  • #5635
    blades1982
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 33 ✭blades1982


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    I'm afraid it isn't actually your right.

    Some of the rules of your religion may be contrary to Civil laws. Saying the rules of a religion are more important leads to things like Sharia Law being used to justify what are crimes including murder.

    It makes no difference what your particular religion is - the State must legislate for all citizens and if all citizens are not treated equally then none of us are truly free - and that includes to practice one's religion.

    actually it is my right. every person has an inate right to believe what they wish.


  • #5636
    Madame_Diem
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86 ✭✭Madame_Diem


    blades1982 wrote: »
    wo there big boy, get off that high horse. i wasnt allowed into this country, i was born a bred here boyo.

    Then your a traitor to Ireland.


  • #5637
    folamh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 787 ✭✭✭folamh


    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/en/constitution/index.html#article44

    "Every religious denomination shall have the right to manage its own affairs, own, acquire and administer property, movable and immovable, and maintain institutions for religious or charitable purposes."


  • #5638
    blades1982
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 33 ✭blades1982


    Madame_Diem wrote: »
    Then your a traitor to Ireland.[/QUOTE

    and you are ireland ? i think not.


  • #5639
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Madame_Diem wrote: »
    As an atheist and a gay man I would like to personally thank all those liberals and lefties who allowed people like the above poster into my country so I could be discriminated against now from as far as the third world. It will surely be a smack in the face for all you liberals when all the 'new' Irish come out to vote No. Once again thank you.

    Still trying to stir it I see.

    Guess what - There are Irish Muslims - imagine that!

    Probably more Irish Muslims than neo-Con Gay Irishmen which, imho, is a good thing.


  • #5640
    Trudiha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 235 ✭✭Trudiha


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    Muslims shouldn't get gay married, we understand.

    That is in no way all cut and dried, there are plenty of gay Muslims who have no problem whatsoever squaring their sexuality with their faith. I don't know enough about Islam to state the case but Imaan, the gay Muslim charity do an excellent job of putting it forward.


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  • #5641
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    blades1982 wrote: »
    actually it is my right. every person has an inate right to believe what they wish.

    To believe yes.
    But a person does not have the right to place those beliefs above the Civil Law - at least not without risking serious penalties.

    We may have been using different definitions of the word 'right' there.


This discussion has been closed.
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