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Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

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Comments

  • #3512
    Huntergonzo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭Huntergonzo


    hinault wrote: »

    God is infinite.
    God's mercy is infinite
    God's justice is infinite.

    Isn't this so called merciful, just God also a murderer of innocent people and animals =

    Exodus 12:29

    "At midnight the Lord struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well."

    You see you can look for and find many good quotes in the bible but it always stood out to me that religious people never seem to be able to properly address horrifyingly evil verses such as that one.

    Luckily most people in Ireland aren't really religious, they're a la carte religious, meaning they pick and choose the good stuff and ignore all the evil passages in the bible.


  • #3513
    Safehands
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭Safehands


    hinault wrote: »
    I understand the term infinity.

    Just as you understand the term Electro Magnetism.

    I don't remember using the term electro magnetism. Why would you make such a ridiculous comparison?


  • #3514
    hinault
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Huntergonzo wrote: »
    Isn't this so called merciful, just God also a murderer of innocent people and animals =

    Exodus 12:29

    "At midnight the Lord struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well."

    You see you can look for and find many good quotes in the bible but it always stood out to me that religious people never seem to be able to properly address horrifyingly evil verses such as that one.

    Luckily most people in Ireland aren't really religious, they're a la carte religious, meaning they pick and choose the good stuff and ignore all the evil passages in the bible.

    You're presenting a partial interpretation of Exodus which is misleading.
    You cite 1 verse in Exodus and "overlook" the preceding 28 verses!

    Exodus 12 : 1-28, states that God issues a warning.
    The warning issued is detailed, hence it takes 28 verses to detail the warning.
    If the warning is heeded, people are spared (Mercy).

    Exodus 12:29 foretells what will happen, if the warning isn't heeded (Justice)

    What an amateurish attempt at misrepresentation on your part.


  • #3515
    orubiru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭orubiru


    hinault wrote: »
    God is infinite.

    We don't have to understand something to know something.

    No one of faith claims to understand infinity.

    The prophets and Jesus Christ have all communicated to humanity the properties which God is. One property is that God is infinite.
    We know that infinity has no beginning and no end.

    How do we know that God is infinite? Because Jesus said so?

    How can you say that no one of faith claims to understand infinity when here you are claiming to understand an infinite being and making declarations on behalf of that infinite being?

    It seems like the statement "God is infinite" is only being made as an avoidance of the question "Where did God come from".

    It is not possible to measure or predict things that are infinite. If God is infinite then it's not possible to make declarations about Gods justice, mercy, or love. These labels would be meaningless to an infinite being.

    You can't have it both ways.


  • #3516
    orubiru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭orubiru


    hinault wrote: »
    You're presenting a partial interpretation of Exodus which is misleading.
    You cite 1 verse in Exodus and "overlook" the preceding 28 verses!

    Exodus 12 : 1-28, states that God issues a warning.
    The warning issued is detailed, hence it takes 28 verses to detail the warning.
    If the warning is heeded, people are spared (Mercy).

    Exodus 12:29 foretells what will happen, if the warning isn't heeded (Justice)

    What an amateurish attempt at misrepresentation on your part.

    If Gods mercy is infinite, as you have stated, then nothing will happen if the warning is not heeded.

    So why bother issuing the warning in the first place?

    Exodus 12:29 - "At midnight the Lord struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well."

    This is not mercy. It's an unreasonable level of killing.

    So we have to conclude that Gods mercy is not infinite.


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  • #3517
    MaxWig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,025 ✭✭✭MaxWig


    orubiru wrote: »
    It's an unreasonable level of killing.

    Like in Kill Bill Vol. I


  • #3518
    Huntergonzo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭Huntergonzo


    hinault wrote: »
    You're presenting a partial interpretation of Exodus which is misleading.
    You cite 1 verse in Exodus and "overlook" the preceding 28 verses!

    Exodus 12 : 1-28, states that God issues a warning.
    The warning issued is detailed, hence it takes 28 verses to detail the warning.
    If the warning is heeded, people are spared (Mercy).

    Exodus 12:29 foretells what will happen, if the warning isn't heeded (Justice)

    What an amateurish attempt at misrepresentation on your part.

    What an appalling attempt to cover for such an evil verse, how can you justify such blatant murder by a being that you consider just and merciful and then criticize me for supposedly being amateurish, the verse is there in bold letters, no thinking person could justify it.

    What possible warnings justifies murder anyway? could you imagine if I or anyone appeared in court after murdering hordes of people and tried to justify it by saying that they were warned, what a despicable thing to say.


  • #3519
    hinault
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Huntergonzo wrote: »
    What an appalling attempt to cover for such an evil verse, how can you justify such blatant murder by a being that you consider just and merciful and then criticize me for putting as being amateurish, the verse is there in bold letters, no thinking person could justify it.

    An accusation of a coverup from a poster who deliberately ignored 28 preceding verses from a text is laughable.
    Your amateurish attempt to further misrepresent continues.

    As posted out earlier verses 1-28 denote in detail the warnings given by God
    and how the warnings must be heeded to access mercy.

    1 And the Lord said to Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt:

    2 This month shall be to you the beginning of months; it shall be the first in the months of the year.

    3 Speak ye to the whole assembly of the children of Israel, and say to them: On the tenth day of this month let every man take a lamb by their families and houses.

    4 But if the number be less than may suffice to eat the lamb, he shall take unto him his neighbour that joineth to his house, according to the number of souls which may be enough to eat the lamb.

    5 And it shall be a lamb without blemish, a male, of one year; according to which rite also you shall take a kid.

    6 And you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month; and the whole multitude of the children of Israel shall sacrifice it in the evening.

    7 And they shall take of the blood thereof, and put it upon both the side-posts, and on the upper door-posts of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.

    8 And they shall eat the flesh that night roasted at the fire, and unleavened bread with wild lettuce.

    9 You shall not eat thereof any thing raw, nor boiled in water, but only roasted at the fire; you shall eat the head with the feet and entrails thereof.

    10 Neither shall there remain any thing of it until morning. *If there be any thing left, you shall burn it with fire.

    11 And thus you shall eat it: you shall gird your reins, and you shall have shoes on your feet, holding staves in your hands, and you shall eat in haste; for it is the Phase (that is the Passage) of the Lord.

    12 And I will pass through the land of Egypt that night, and will kill every first-born in the land of Egypt, both man and beast: and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments; I am the Lord.

    13 And the blood shall be unto you for a sign in the houses where you shall be; and I shall see the blood, and shall pass over you; and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I shall strike the land of Egypt.

    14 And this day shall be for a memorial to you; and you shall keep it a feast to the Lord in your generations, with an everlasting observance.

    15 Seven days shall you eat unleavened bread: in the first day there shall be no leaven in your houses; whosoever shall eat any thing leavened, from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall perish out of Israel.

    16 The first day shall be holy and solemn, and the seventh day shall be kept with the like solemnity: you shall do no work in them, except those things that belong to eating.

    17 And you shall observe the feast of the unleavened bread: for in this same day I will bring forth your army out of the land of Egypt, and you shall keep this day in your generations by a perpetual observance.

    18 *The first month, the fourteenth day of the month, in the evening, you shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the same month, in the evening.

    19 Seven days there shall not be found any leaven in your houses: he that shall eat leavened bread, his soul shall perish out of the assembly of Israel, whether he be a stranger or born in the land.

    20 You shall not eat any thing leavened: in all your habitations you shall eat unleavened bread.

    21 And Moses called all the ancients of the children of Israel, and said to them: Go take a lamb by your families, and sacrifice the Phase.

    22 *And dip a bunch of hyssop in the blood that is at the door, and sprinkle the transom of the door therewith, and both the door-cheeks: let none of you go out of the door of his house till morning.

    23 For the Lord will pass through striking the Egyptians: and when he shall see the blood on the transom, and on both the posts, he will pass over the door of the house, and not suffer the destroyer to come into your houses and to hurt you.

    24 Thou shalt keep this thing as a law for thee and thy children for ever.

    25 And when you have entered into the land which the Lord will give you, as he hath promised, you shall observe these ceremonies.

    26 And when your children shall say to you: What is the meaning of this service?

    27 You shall say to them: It is the victim of the passage of the Lord, when he passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, striking the Egyptians, and saving our houses. And the people bowing themselves, adored.

    28 And the children of Israel going forth, did as the Lord had commanded Moses and Aaron.

    Verse 29 follows verses 1-28, and where the warnings outlined in 1-28 are not headed, justice is dispensed as explained in verse 29
    29 And it came to pass at midnight, *the Lord slew every first-born in the land of Egypt, from the first-born of Pharao, who sat on his throne, **unto the first-born of the captive woman that was in the prison, and all the first-born of cattle.

    You're a rank amateur in your attempt at misrepresentation.
    Huntergonzo wrote: »
    What possible warnings justifies murder anyway? could you imagine if I or anyone appeared in court after murdering hoards of people and tried to justify it by saying that they were warned, what a despicable thing to say.

    God is the source of all life. God can therefore decide to give life or take life.
    It is His and it is his to decide, should He do so.

    In reading the Bible there is no instance in which God did not first issue a warning.
    Where the warning was ignored God dispensed justice.
    Where the warning was heeded, God dispensed mercy.


  • #3520
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,779 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    hinault wrote: »

    In reading the Bible there is no instance in which God did not first issue a warning.
    Where the warning was ignored God dispensed justice.
    Where the warning was heeded, God dispensed mercy.
    It amazing me that people follow this creature, and not just that, think it is somehow good.

    MrP


  • #3521
    Huntergonzo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭Huntergonzo


    hinault wrote: »
    An accusation of a coverup from a poster who deliberately ignored 28 preceding verses from a text is laughable.
    Your amateurish attempt to further misrepresent continues.

    You're a rank amateur in your attempt at misrepresentation.

    God is the source of all life. God can therefore decide to give life or take life.
    It is His and it is his to decide, should He do so.

    In reading the Bible there is no instance in which God did not first issue a warning.
    Where the warning was ignored God dispensed justice.
    Where the warning was heeded, God dispensed mercy.

    What am I misrepresenting? the call for murder (and many other evil things) is in the bible in bold letters, unless of course you support murder? that's a genuine question. Is it possible you just want to sweep verses like that under the carpet because they're pretty uncomfortable to blind believers?

    God is the source of all life in your humble opinion, you haven't yet displayed an ability to question your own beliefs though as far as I can see. Also how do you know for sure God exists and that it's a man because you refer to it as he?

    Ps, you can call me an amateur all you want, in fact I'm quite enjoying it because it spells out quite clearly that you're stuck for a decent argument and have resorted to name calling. Also I am an amateur at posting, I don't get paid for it, so it sort of goes without say and you're an amateur aswell unless you're a professional poster?


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  • #3522
    orubiru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭orubiru


    hinault wrote: »
    An accusation of a coverup from a poster who deliberately ignored 28 preceding verses from a text is laughable.
    Your amateurish attempt to further misrepresent continues.

    As posted out earlier verses 1-28 denote in detail the warnings given by God
    and how the warnings must be heeded to access mercy.

    Verse 29 follows verses 1-28, and where the warnings outlined in 1-28 are not headed, justice is dispensed as explained in verse 29

    You're a rank amateur in your attempt at misrepresentation.

    God is the source of all life. God can therefore decide to give life or take life.
    It is His and it is his to decide, should He do so.

    In reading the Bible there is no instance in which God did not first issue a warning.
    Where the warning was ignored God dispensed justice.
    Where the warning was heeded, God dispensed mercy.

    Why would God behave this way? It makes no sense.

    Surely the whole situation only demonstrates that God doesn't really understand humanity and is a bit heavy handed when it comes to justice?

    Why is God going around killing Egyptians and slaying their first born?

    It seems a bit extreme to be honest.

    What's your thoughts on this? Did the Egyptians deserve it?


  • #3523
    Madame_Diem
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86 ✭✭Madame_Diem


    I don't get this. I don't belive in God and don't care who does. Live and let live.


  • #3524
    orubiru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭orubiru


    Madame_Diem wrote: »
    I don't get this. I don't belive in God and don't care who does. Live and let live.

    OK then.

    You won't mind if we all continue posting about it though, right?


  • #3525
    Safehands
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭Safehands


    Madame_Diem wrote: »
    I don't get this. I don't belive in God and don't care who does. Live and let live.

    Yea, but we all love arguing!!!


  • #3526
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,779 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    Madame_Diem wrote: »
    I don't get this. I don't belive in God and don't care who does. Live and let live.
    Live and let live? Is the live and let live in the sense that the religious leaders are living and let live when it comes to, say for example, the up-coming referendum on same sex marriage? Or is it live and let live in the sense that a spokesperson for another religion threatened legal action if a newspaper printed a certain picture? Is it live and let live in the sense that the board of a hospital, run by the religious, blocked a trial of breast cancer drugs because the requirement that the recipient take the contraceptive pill went against the hospitals religious ethos?

    Live and let live is an awesome concept, but it is one that would be decidedly one sided in this particular context, and live and let live is pretty useless when only one 'side' is living that way.

    By all means you are entitled to live you life in a live and let live way, just don't be mistaken in thinking this means you will be treated the same way or with the same respect you grant others.

    MrP


  • #3527
    Safehands
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭Safehands


    MrPudding wrote: »
    Live and let live? Is the live and let live in the sense that the religious leader are living and let living when it comes to, say for example, the up-coming referendum on same sex marriage? Or is it live and let live in the sense that a spokesperson for another religion threatened legal action is a newspaper printed a certain picture? Is it live and let live in the sense that the board of a hospital, run by the religious blocked a trial of breast cancer drugs because the requirement that the recipient take the contraceptive pill went against the hospitals religious ethos?

    Live and let live is an awesome concept, but it is one that would be decidedly one sided in this particular context, and live and let live is pretty useless when only one 'side' is living that way.

    By all means you are entitled to live you life in a live and let live way, just don't be mistaken in thinking this means you will be treated the same way or with the same respect you grant others.MrP
    See Madame Diem, we love arguing, and some are very good at it too!


  • #3528
    hinault
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Huntergonzo wrote: »
    What am I misrepresenting? the call for murder (and many other evil things) is in the bible in bold letters, unless of course you support murder?

    It is absurd to say that the one who gives life can be accused of murder, when he takes life. It is God's decision to do whatever he chooses with the properties that he owns. God owns Life.

    Like I said earlier, God never takes life without giving fair notice.
    Failure to heed that notice will without fail reap the loss of that life.






    Huntergonzo wrote: »
    Is it possible you just want to sweep verses like that under the carpet because they're pretty uncomfortable to blind believers?

    Sweeping under the carpet is quoting verse 29 and trying to deliberately misrepresent what verse 29 teaches.

    Sweeping under the carpet, misrepresentation, half truths, outright lies, are your domain.
    Huntergonzo wrote: »
    God is the source of all life in your humble opinion, you haven't yet displayed an ability to question your own beliefs though as far as I can see. Also how do you know for sure God exists and that it's a man because you refer to it as he?

    I'm not here to validate my belief. Nor am I here to vindicate your disbelief.

    You've been given the means to accept the teachings. After that it is your own decision as to whether or not you accept the teachings.


  • #3529
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,779 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    hinault wrote: »
    It is absurd to say that the one who gives life can be accused of murder, when he takes life. It is God's decision to do whatever he chooses with the properties that he owns. God owns Life.

    Like I said earlier, God never takes life without giving fair notice.
    Failure to heed that notice will without fail reap the loss of that life.
    It saddens me that people believe this.
    hinault wrote: »
    Sweeping under the carpet is quoting verse 29 and trying to deliberately misrepresent what verse 29 teaches.
    Except i don't think that is what happened here. I don't believe there was any misrepresentation nor any sweeping under the carpet. If one simply does not accept the 'justification' or explanation of the previous verses, then it is hardly a misrepresentation. Verse 29 is disgusting with or without the warning.
    hinault wrote: »
    Sweeping under the carpet, misrepresentation, half truths, outright lies, are your domain.
    Hmmm, really? Have you read any of your posts about the referendum? Have a word.
    hinault wrote: »
    You've been given the means to accept the teachings. After that it is your own decision as to whether or not you accept the teachings.
    It doesn't make any sense. None. I could not accept it even if I wanted to. I can't make myself believe something that is obviously false, no matter how hard I try.

    MrP


  • #3530
    Madame_Diem
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86 ✭✭Madame_Diem


    MrPudding wrote: »
    Live and let live? Is the live and let live in the sense that the religious leaders are living and let live when it comes to, say for example, the up-coming referendum on same sex marriage? Or is it live and let live in the sense that a spokesperson for another religion threatened legal action if a newspaper printed a certain picture? Is it live and let live in the sense that the board of a hospital, run by the religious, blocked a trial of breast cancer drugs because the requirement that the recipient take the contraceptive pill went against the hospitals religious ethos?

    Live and let live is an awesome concept, but it is one that would be decidedly one sided in this particular context, and live and let live is pretty useless when only one 'side' is living that way.

    By all means you are entitled to live you life in a live and let live way, just don't be mistaken in thinking this means you will be treated the same way or with the same respect you grant others.

    MrP

    I'm gay. I'm top of the hate lists for ISIS and the Westboro Baptist church. And you know what I couldn't give a toss. I'm not going to live my live in opposition to some religious nutters. My parish priest knows I'm gay, knows I'm an atheist. He smiles and is friendly with me and I am in courteous in return. What he does in his church is his business, what I do in my bedroom is mine.


  • #3531
    Huntergonzo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭Huntergonzo


    It is absurd to say that the one who gives life can be accused of murder, when he takes life. It is God's decision to do whatever he chooses with the properties that he owns. God owns Life.

    Like I said earlier, God never takes life without giving fair notice.
    Failure to heed that notice will without fail reap the loss of that life.

    How do you know your God give's life and are you happy to be his property? ie a slave.


    Sweepimg under the carpet is quoting verse 29 and trying to deliberately misrepresent what verse 29 teaches.

    Sweeping under the carpet, misrepresentation, half truths, outright lies, are your domain

    I don't know verse 29, enlighten me if you wish but thank, you've just provided a perfect example of misrepresenting someone, in this case me, although to be honest it just looks like another attempt by yourself to discredit me.


    I'm not here to validate my belief. Nor am I here to vindicate your disbelief.

    You've been given the means to accept the teachings. After that it is your own decision as to whether or not you accept the teachings.

    Your're right you don't have to do anything here, you're under no obligation to anybody but we are debating so I can only take that comment as either a cop-out or your stuck for an answer. Can I just ask you again, honestly have you ever questioned your blind faith in God? and if not why not?


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  • #3532
    Safehands
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭Safehands


    hinault wrote: »
    Like I said earlier, God never takes life without giving fair notice.
    Failure to heed that notice will without fail reap the loss of that life.

    Hinault, that sounds like the ramblings of a despot. What is incredible is that you can associate that with unlimited mercy and forgivness.
    It's like the utterings of Kim Jong-Un, rather than a loving God and people who believe this could easily be compared Kim's innocent "loving" followers who throng around him for a photo shoot.


  • #3533
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    hinault wrote: »

    In reading the Bible there is no instance in which God did not first issue a warning.
    Where the warning was ignored God dispensed justice.
    Where the warning was heeded, God dispensed mercy.

    A bit like the IRA then ? :)


  • #3534
    obplayer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,190 ✭✭✭obplayer


    hinault wrote: »
    It is absurd to say that the one who gives life can be accused of murder, when he takes life. It is God's decision to do whatever he chooses with the properties that he owns. God owns Life.

    Like I said earlier, God never takes life without giving fair notice.
    Failure to heed that notice will without fail reap the loss of that life.









    Sweeping under the carpet is quoting verse 29 and trying to deliberately misrepresent what verse 29 teaches.

    Sweeping under the carpet, misrepresentation, half truths, outright lies, are your domain.



    I'm not here to validate my belief. Nor am I here to vindicate your disbelief.

    You've been given the means to accept the teachings. After that it is your own decision as to whether or not you accept the teachings.

    Slavery eh? And do you enjoy being a slave?


  • #3535
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,190 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    obplayer wrote: »
    Slavery eh? And do you enjoy being a slave?

    Coming soon...80 Years A Hinault. :pac:


  • #3536
    hinault
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Huntergonzo wrote: »
    but we are debating so I can only take that comment as either a cop-out or your stuck for an answer.

    We're not debating anything.

    You deliberately attempted earlier to misrepresent a verse from the Bible.
    Anyone can make a mistake. But what you did was deliberate.

    Huntergonzo wrote: »
    Can I just ask you again, honestly have you ever questioned your blind faith in God? and if not why not?

    You asking something honestly?
    No thanks.

    I won't be replying further to you on this thread.


  • #3537
    hinault
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Safehands wrote: »
    Hinault, that sounds like the ramblings of a despot. What is incredible is that you can associate that with unlimited mercy and forgivness.
    It's like the utterings of Kim Jong-Un, rather than a loving God and people who believe this could easily be compared Kim's innocent "loving" followers who throng around him for a photo shoot.

    Did you read the two links supplied earlier?


  • #3538
    hinault
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    obplayer wrote: »
    Slavery eh? And do you enjoy being a slave?

    Like you, I'm at liberty to accept or to reject the teachings.
    That's choice is not slavery.


  • #3539
    obplayer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,190 ✭✭✭obplayer


    hinault wrote: »
    Like you, I'm at liberty to accept or to reject the teachings.
    That's choice is not slavery.

    You said that
    It is God's decision to do whatever he chooses with the properties that he owns. God owns Life.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=95199989&postcount=3528

    If God owns you, as you just said, then you are a slave. Or does your Catholic dictionary have a different definition of slave?


  • #3540
    hinault
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    obplayer wrote: »
    If God owns you, as you just said, then you are a slave. Or does your Catholic dictionary have a different definition of slave?

    God gives life, and with each life God separately gives each person free will.

    A slave doesn't have free will. A slave cannot obey his/her will.
    A slave only obeys the will of their master.


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  • #3541
    looksee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 30,498 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    I have just read all that stuff about roasting lambs and the minute detail of what people were to do to avoid being killed, and I do not see anything about warning the Egyptians. God created Egyptians as well as Hebrews, why is it reasonable for them to be killed with no warning?


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