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New Topics/Category Organisation Update 20:45 - Post 100

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    #422
    kneemos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,419 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    catallus wrote: »
    He used to say "Roll it there Roisin please"

    Wasn't the "my forums" tab always there?

    Who was Collette then?


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    #423
    Dav
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,840 ✭✭✭Dav


    catallus wrote: »
    Wasn't the "my forums" tab always there?

    Yea, for about three years :)

    For all the people asking for a roll-back: The Category structure is not going back to the old way at all.

    That's not to say we're not going to work on the menu and interface (I've been playing around with something all day, but it's been quite some time since I wrote code so it'll have to be reviewed by one of our real coders before it becomes anything).


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    #424
    catallus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭catallus


    If the point is to have the "Talk to.." and "Adverts.ie" more prominent would the easiest solution not be to put them in big glaring tabs in that massive waste of a blank space beside the search bar? And then you could put the normal dropdown menu on top?

    I'm not one of those high powered overpaid media-internetwank-consultant type of freaks, but that's what I'd do :)


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    #425
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,769 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Could you change Gaming and Television to Gaming (General) and Television (General), so that it would be kept in the same order that it was originally on the My Forums section?
    Dav wrote: »
    Good idea, I'll do that now.

    Politics (General) as well? Just to be consistent. "General Politics" sounds like a wrestler or something!


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    #426
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,769 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    And to add.. a few days in and I'm finding myself not even bothering looking outside My Forums list...

    That's not me being stubborn, I just couldn't be dealing with the aggravation and hassle of navigating the new setup and trying to find stuff that has been buried.


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    #427
    Dozen Wicked Words
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,325 ✭✭✭✭Dozen Wicked Words


    I'd like my A to Z tab to be A to Z again on touch. Alphabet currently starts with E and is all over the place. Haven't looked at full site much so not sure if it'll make any difference. I use an old skin anyway so hopefully it'll be familiar.


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    #428
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    And to add.. a few days in and I'm finding myself not even bothering looking outside My Forums list...

    That's not me being stubborn, I just couldn't be dealing with the aggravation and hassle of navigating the new setup and trying to find stuff that has been buried.

    To be fair, that's the way I've been doing it for the past few years, since it was first implemented. I rarely look outside of My Forums, just because it's the easiest way to browse through the site.

    I remember when the huge overhaul happened on the site and there was so much uproar. Same thing. People dislike change, go figure.


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    #429
    Dav
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,840 ✭✭✭Dav


    Dozen Wicked Words wrote: »
    I'd like my A to Z tab to be A to Z again on touch. Alphabet currently starts with E and is all over the place. Haven't looked at full site much so not sure if it'll make any difference. I use an old skin anyway so hopefully it'll be familiar.

    Diego's been looking at that for the last couple of days, it's affecting the Apps too. I don't have an update I'm afraid, but it's definitely a current work in progress.


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    #430
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,769 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    Deleted User wrote: »
    To be fair, that's the way I've been doing it for the past few years, since it was first implemented. I rarely look outside of My Forums, just because it's the easiest way to browse through the site.

    I remember when the huge overhaul happened on the site and there was so much uproar. Same thing. People dislike change, go figure.

    But it's not just "bah I hate change!" - the functionality and UX of the site has been reduced by this move.

    And while Dav and others have been clear that "it's not changing back", I have to ask.. who is this (changes and the site in general) for?

    - The users? (who are reacting very badly to it)
    - The new users? (who seem to have gotten on quite well with the "old" layout for years)
    - The paying sponsors? (who probably don't care either way as long as Talk To is still prominent)
    - The staff? (whose lives it may make easier sure, but are they the most important group here?)

    Yes I get it.. Boards is now commercial - but we don't pay subscriptions and is there really that much unique/valuable content that users will stick with these unpopular, awkward changes - with the whole lot to change again in a few weeks anyway (which is the part I REALLY don't get - despite Dav's "we're breaking you in gently" explanation a few pages back).

    For myself I've been here a long time and find it a generally entertaining and often useful way to pass the time. I've even thrown a few quid in as a Subscriber over the years... but it seems to me that the users of the site are now secondary to whatever it is that's driving not just these functional changes but a lot of the ethos/modding etc of the site as well in the last few years.

    If Boards shut down in the morning sure I'd miss it and I'd be a bit lost for some of the content.. but I think the powers that be are overestimating how much the users will put up with at the same time.


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    #431
    jos28
    Registered Users Posts: 7,190 ✭✭✭jos28


    Wichita Lineman wrote: »
    Much harder to get around to the few forums I use and I think it will be more off putting to newbies who wont be able to browse easily.

    Agreed ! I'm not liking the new layout at all. Much preferred the old layout, it was much easier to navigate. I know we can use 'my forums' for our favourites but now there are less chances to randomly spot interesting threads/topics. I think newbies won't realise the extent of the site


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    #432
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    I think if the hover-to-expand functionality for Categories/sub forums were to return, much could be salvaged from this. The extra clicks that "bury" the forums would be gone, and the new categories could be browsed and appreciated.

    The problem with the current implementation of the "Topics" dropdown (two columns) is that hover-over functionality instead of the arrow would cause the thing to jump about wildly. All the categories underneath wherever your mouse was would drop away and you'll end up chasing them up and down the screen. The columns along the top worked because there was nothing underneath them, and sub-forums opened to the side.

    If all the categories dropped down in a single column, then forums (and sub forums) could be expanded to one side on mouse-hover. This would mimic the old menu, only vertically instead of the horizonal view Boards want away from. Using a single column expanding to the side would also work with the mockups which have forums accessed from a menu icon top right on the page.

    Just another option on how it could work.


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    #433
    Dav
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,840 ✭✭✭Dav


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    - The users? (who are reacting very badly to it)

    Well based on this thread alone, that's simply not true at all. It's about 50/50 in just this thread and when one considers that people are FAR quicker to post something in complaint rather than in praise, I think that means we've clearly done something right here.
    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    - The new users? (who seem to have gotten on quite well with the "old" layout for years)

    They haven't, that's the point. You aren't dealing with the emails we get saying "I have no idea how this site works" and they're the people who were bothered enough to want to tell us that. We also talk to people at events, in organisations we'd love to work with (and I don't mean commercially), via other social media and they all tell us the same thing. They do not understand our site and how it works. We're working on making it better for them as well as our existing members. Our number 1 goal for all things is not money or advertisers or anything like that - it's more members making more posts. Making the layout of the place more obvious and friendly is a major step in making this more like a place people want to join.
    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    - The paying sponsors? (who probably don't care either way as long as Talk To is still prominent)

    They have literally zero input into this.
    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    - The staff? (whose lives it may make easier sure, but are they the most important group here?)

    How on earth do you figure this? I mean stop and think about what you just said - how does taking on a massive project like this make *anything* easier for us in the office? The mind boggles at the very obvious lack of common sense. If we wanted things easier for ourselves we'd be using a stock VBulletin and we'd be telling you all to feck off any time you asked us for anything :) Seriously though, where on earth does this idea that we're doing this for ourselves come from?
    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    Yes I get it.. Boards is now commercial

    And finally this chestnut.

    Boards.ie has ALWAYS and WILL ALWAYS be a commercial venture. It has never NOT been a commercial venture.

    I don't know how much clearer I can make it and I have no idea why on earth people seem to cling to this bizarre notion that this site was ever meant to be anything other than a commercial money making venture for the founders.

    I'm sorry for "letting rip" like this - it's not personal and it's coming not from being pissed off with you, but being pissed off that I have to answer these exact same questions every time we do something to the site and NEVER being given the benefit of the doubt. We are nothing without our members, this is why we engage with you to make these changes - and the category re-organisation as well as the new layouts of the site are something we've involved our members in from as early a stage as possible. But you all have to understand that we make these decisions with as many facts and figures as we can lay our hands on. I first started re-doing our categories three years ago - it's that big of a project and I sincerely hope that by the end of next week it's the last time I'll have to look for it for another few years :)

    Reading endless hyperbole from people with a fraction of the facts and with a need to question our motives and decisions and attribute them to anything except "Make Boards.ie Better" is, to be perfectly honest, really rough on the soul. I mean, yes, it's a part of the job, but just once, I'd really like my last 6 years of trying to do right by you all to count for something :)


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    #434
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Dades wrote: »
    I think if the hover-to-expand functionality for Categories/sub forums were to return, much could be salvaged from this. The extra clicks that "bury" the forums would be gone, and the new categories could be browsed and appreciated.

    The problem with the current implementation of the "Topics" dropdown (two columns) is that hover-over functionality instead of the arrow would cause the thing to jump about wildly. All the categories underneath wherever your mouse was would drop away and you'll end up chasing them up and down the screen. The columns along the top worked because there was nothing underneath them, and sub-forums opened to the side.

    If all the categories dropped down in a single column, then forums (and sub forums) could be expanded to one side on mouse-hover. This would mimic the old menu, only vertically instead of the horizonal view Boards want away from. Using a single column expanding to the side would also work with the mockups which have forums accessed from a menu icon top right on the page.

    Just another option on how it could work.

    Removing the need to click and the need to scroll from the dropdown would solve the main issues. The rest like font size, spacing etc can wait until the new UI.


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    #435
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,769 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    Dav wrote: »
    Well based on this thread alone, that's simply not true at all. It's about 50/50 in just this thread and when one considers that people are FAR quicker to post something in complaint rather than in praise, I think that means we've clearly done something right here.

    I'll agree that a bit of a clean-up of categories was needed alright, but I still don't see how burying pretty much all of the user content in a single menu and adding clicks was an improvement, especially as it's only a temporary setup at that.
    They haven't, that's the point. You aren't dealing with the emails we get saying "I have no idea how this site works" and they're the people who were bothered enough to want to tell us that. We also talk to people at events, in organisations we'd love to work with (and I don't mean commercially), via other social media and they all tell us the same thing. They do not understand our site and how it works. We're working on making it better for them as well as our existing members. Our number 1 goal for all things is not money or advertisers or anything like that - it's more members making more posts. Making the layout of the place more obvious and friendly is a major step in making this more like a place people want to join.

    Maybe I'm here too long but it's a forum. They all work pretty much along the same way.. you register, subjects are ordered by forums and posts by topics. Sure the layout and colour schemes may differ but the basic idea is the same.

    Personally until this week I've never had any issues with the site from that perspective.. sure it's a large site and you may have to spend a few minutes initially looking around or looking at what's available but is it that "scary" to newcomers that we really need to "dumb it down" so much that it frustrates existing users every time?
    They have literally zero input into this.

    I figured that alright.. it's not their "area" so to speak
    How on earth do you figure this? I mean stop and think about what you just said - how does taking on a massive project like this make *anything* easier for us in the office? The mind boggles at the very obvious lack of common sense. If we wanted things easier for ourselves we'd be using a stock VBulletin and we'd be telling you all to feck off any time you asked us for anything :) Seriously though, where on earth does this idea that we're doing this for ourselves come from?

    Maybe it's from the comments everytime something like this happens about how inadequate VB is and this is what's driving these changes.. again, there's no problem with changing the back-end but why does the front-end have to constantly be tweaked with it?

    That's the issue people are having I think. I'm sure 90% don't know what platform Boards runs on and thus couldn't care less if ye change it.. but if the experience changes and it's a negative one, you have to expect complaints and not just because "change = bad"
    And finally this chestnut.

    Boards.ie has ALWAYS and WILL ALWAYS be a commercial venture. It has never NOT been a commercial venture.

    I don't know how much clearer I can make it and I have no idea why on earth people seem to cling to this bizarre notion that this site was ever meant to be anything other than a commercial money making venture for the founders.

    I'm sorry for "letting rip" like this - it's not personal and it's coming not from being pissed off with you, but being pissed off that I have to answer these exact same questions every time we do something to the site and NEVER being given the benefit of the doubt. We are nothing without our members, this is why we engage with you to make these changes - and the category re-organisation as well as the new layouts of the site are something we've involved our members in from as early a stage as possible. But you all have to understand that we make these decisions with as many facts and figures as we can lay our hands on. I first started re-doing our categories three years ago - it's that big of a project and I sincerely hope that by the end of next week it's the last time I'll have to look for it for another few years :)

    Reading endless hyperbole from people with a fraction of the facts and with a need to question our motives and decisions and attribute them to anything except "Make Boards.ie Better" is, to be perfectly honest, really rough on the soul. I mean, yes, it's a part of the job, but just once, I'd really like my last 6 years of trying to do right by you all to count for something :)

    I kinda feel bad now! :o but no offence taken.. or intended for that matter!

    No-one has said that there hasn't been a lot of work put into this and that you guys don't take it seriously (well ok, there was that one thing about making work up to justify your paycheques or something??). I think the issue here is that it's coming across a bit like..

    "We're doing this.. have your say but either way it's happening. No we're not changing it back"

    Whether ye realise it or not, that rubs people up the wrong way especially when - as you say - they don't have all the facts .. and why would they? All they see is the direct impact of decisions that make their time on the site more awkward, they post here and they get the above kinda response .. although to your credit, you personally try to give as much background as possible too :)

    I think the mock-up someone did of the Categories spading out horizontally across the screen coupled with reimplementing the hover functions would probably sort a lot out. I do think though that some of the more popular forums - BA, AH, TV etc - need to be given more prominence. The idea of a "beta" site for users to test in advance is a good one too if that was possible and it might help defuse some of these issues before it goes live.


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    #436
    Crann na Beatha
    Registered Users Posts: 11,763 ✭✭✭✭Crann na Beatha


    This post has been deleted.


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    #437
    mirrorwall14
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,751 ✭✭✭mirrorwall14


    my3cents wrote: »
    So how would you know if there are not other forums that might interest you?

    Most recent posts. I use it all the time and subscribe the forums/threads that interest me!


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    #438
    Starokan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 746 ✭✭✭Starokan


    I like it I have to say, it does take a little bit longer to get to a forum through the drop down menus but its pretty straightforward and easy to use

    I would make two suggestions

    - Change the word Topics - anything I have ever seen on the site refers to threads or forums. I would change topics to forums, it makes more sense and to a new user it would direct you to where exactly you need to go namely the drop down menu for all forums

    - Either on the home page or under boards.ie I would put a brief instructional video for new users. You know the type where the voiceover relates to the cursor dropping down menus. It would show any new user exactly how to navigate the site. Easy and functional and solves a lot of the issues people are raising as to difficulties new users encounter


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    #439
    Lovely Bloke
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,748 ✭✭✭✭Lovely Bloke


    I cannot fathom why the staff cannot or have not realised the issue here is NOT the new categories. It simply isn't.

    It's the absolutely ridiculous implementation of them, the fact that it's all click click click where it used to be hover and browse. And everything is now hidden behind those clicks, where it used to be immediately obvious.

    Now, if this is an improvement for new users, then I'm incredulous as to what type of person actually wants to use this site at all, that they would find this system a better experience that what it was like on Monday. I mean, really?

    Dav, you haven't once addressed that in any post on this thread, so I can only assume you are missing the point completely. Is this new browsing experience really better than the old one?


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    #440
    Posy
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 27,545 Mod ✭✭✭✭Posy


    Starokan wrote: »
    Change the word Topics - anything I have ever seen on the site refers to threads or forums. I would change topics to forums, it makes more sense and to a new user it would direct you to where exactly you need to go namely the drop down menu for all forums
    Like I said before, I think 'discussion forums' or even 'discussion topics' would be far better.

    I also think an easy to find A-Z of forums/topics would be really handy.


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    #441
    whatismyname
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,707 ✭✭✭whatismyname


    Posy wrote: »
    Like I said before, I think 'discussion forums' or even 'discussion topics' would be far better.

    I also think an easy to find A-Z of forums/topics would be really handy.

    Yes discussion in front of either makes a lot more sense, and makes it clearer which they've said is their aim, particularly for new users.


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    #442
    zeffabelli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,516 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    Dav wrote: »
    Well based on this thread alone, that's simply not true at all. It's about 50/50 in just this thread and when one considers that people are FAR quicker to post something in complaint rather than in praise, I think that means we've clearly done something right here.



    )

    The people who like the change will use this site whether you go back to the old way or whether you continue with this new way.

    If it is 50/50, then you have managed to alienate and frustrate half of your user base with this new way.

    With the old way you frustrate and alienate 0 of your userbase.

    These are your customer base, it pays to listen to what they tell you.


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    #443
    Lovely Bloke
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,748 ✭✭✭✭Lovely Bloke


    also...I realise it's temporary, but why foist this on people like this, only to remove it in "weeks" if that is indeed the plan.

    Does the planned solution go back to hover & browse, or is it more click, click, click between labyrinthine menus and "topics"?


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    #444
    Quazzie
    Registered Users Posts: 28,884 ✭✭✭✭Quazzie


    Dav wrote: »
    Well based on this thread alone, that's simply not true at all. It's about 50/50 in just this thread and when one considers that people are FAR quicker to post something in complaint rather than in praise, I think that means we've clearly done something right here.

    Every organization, no how matter how big or how successful should pay more attention to the negative feedback than the positive. You, and other members of staff are blatantly and rudely dismissing the feedback of others simply because it differs from your own. That's very arrogant.
    Dav wrote: »
    They haven't, that's the point. You aren't dealing with the emails we get saying "I have no idea how this site works" and they're the people who were bothered enough to want to tell us that. We also talk to people at events, in organisations we'd love to work with (and I don't mean commercially), via other social media and they all tell us the same thing. They do not understand our site and how it works. We're working on making it better for them as well as our existing members. Our number 1 goal for all things is not money or advertisers or anything like that - it's more members making more posts. Making the layout of the place more obvious and friendly is a major step in making this more like a place people want to join.
    You may have an end-game of attracting more users, but you need to put more emphasis into not alienating the existing userbase.
    Dav wrote: »
    They have literally zero input into this.

    Not directly, but indirectly they do when they take such prominence (40%) on the top row.
    Dav wrote: »
    And finally this chestnut.

    Boards.ie has ALWAYS and WILL ALWAYS be a commercial venture. It has never NOT been a commercial venture.

    It was started as place for people to talk about Quake. There was nothing commercial about that. You need to brush up on your "History of Boards.ie"
    there Dav

    The restructuring of the categories may be necessary but how they're presented is terrible and takes away massively from the users enjoyment of the site. You may ignore the users feedback, but you shouldn't ask for it then if that's your intention.


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    #445
    channelsurfer2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,604 ✭✭✭channelsurfer2


    while trying to be positive, i feel that if you are getting 50% negative comments, these are from the actual real users of Boards i.e. the ones who spend time on it, were used to it, supported it for years and now feel alienated because you have to spend twice to three times the lenght of time getting around the site - Despite what you might think.
    anyway I realise you are not going to change back to the old version but at least listen to those that think the Topics thing is rubbish. what was wrong with the old A-Z drop down menu?


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    #446
    blindsider
    Registered Users Posts: 2,018 ✭✭✭blindsider


    Sorry but I hate this new format. Completely unfriendly - any chance ye might reverse the changes?

    Pullleeeeez? :-)


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    #447
    Tokyo
    Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,655 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tokyo


    Baldy Conscience wrote: »
    I cannot fathom why the staff cannot or have not realised the issue here is NOT the new categories. It simply isn't.

    It's the absolutely ridiculous implementation of them, the fact that it's all click click click where it used to be hover and browse. And everything is now hidden behind those clicks, where it used to be immediately obvious.


    While I agree with a lot of the constructive feedback given on the menu, I don't think what you are saying above is entirely true - lack of awareness of what the issue is - to be fair. (text bolded by me)

    Dav wrote: »
    For all the people asking for a roll-back: The Category structure is not going back to the old way at all.

    That's not to say we're not going to work on the menu and interface (I've been playing around with something all day, but it's been quite some time since I wrote code so it'll have to be reviewed by one of our real coders before it becomes anything).


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    #448
    jos28
    Registered Users Posts: 7,190 ✭✭✭jos28


    Any chance you can re-check the TV forum. Spent ages looking for Soap Operas only to find them under Cancelled/Finished TV shows.


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    #449
    zeffabelli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,516 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    jos28 wrote: »
    Any chance you can re-check the TV forum. Spent ages looking for Soap Operas only to find them under Cancelled/Finished TV shows.

    That would be in the wishful thinking forum. :)


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    #450
    Peregrine
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    jos28 wrote: »
    Any chance you can re-check the TV forum. Spent ages looking for Soap Operas only to find them under Cancelled/Finished TV shows.

    Is this what you're seeing?

    346387.png

    It's not actually under Finished/Cancelled shows, the Finshed/Cancelled forum is dropped down by default so you're seeing it's sub forums as well. Finished/Cancelled ends before Game of Thrones.

    It's supposed to look like this:

    346384.png


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    #451
    FloatingVoter
    Registered Users Posts: 6,133 ✭✭✭FloatingVoter


    State Benefits under Business & Finance:rolleyes:. Ah...yeah sure...I'm an 18 year old unsure of how to make a first claim.....I'll put down the Wall Street Journal for a wee second and automatically know where to go.
    Google will still be indexing the threads so anybody genuinely in doubt about where to find a topic can probably use them. If it trips over boards.ie, so be it.


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