Jamelia: 'High street shops shouldn't sell plus size clothing'

22-04-2015 11:49PM

CarpeDiem85 wrote: »

I can observe that I want to observe. I can have my own views and opinions, just like you can. I'm not going through a whole thread word for word to quote this and quote that. I have better things to do with my time.

And theres nothing better than unsubstantiated accusations of obesity denial!

So I've observed. Observations are better if they're true though.

denhaagenite · 22-04-2015 11:50PM

dark crystal wrote: »

So people giving unwarranted comments on your weight pisses you off?

Yes, I can see how that might be annoying alright....

Where did I say it pissed me off? I commented that it's ridiculous, because they have weight problems, not me.

dark crystal · 22-04-2015 11:53PM

denhaagenite wrote: »

Where did I say it pissed me off? I commented that it's ridiculous, because they have weight problems, not me.

It was quite clear from the language you used in the post that it annoyed you. Of course it would.

They criticized your appearance, you criticized theirs. Either way, it's all a bit mean and unnecessary isn't it?

Tarzana2 · 22-04-2015 11:55PM

Frito wrote: »

I'm confused Jamelia.
Were there no fat people then before Penney's stocked a size 18?

Oh they were, you say? So are there more fat people now because Penney's stocks a size 18?

You're not sure but obesity levels have been rising since approx the 1940s due to significant changes in dietary habits, lifestyle, and we're still conducting research into the mechanisms of obesity, metabolic syndrome and diabetes. But you're confident that only stocking sizes 8-12 will reverse the obesity epidemic?

Grand.

It's almost as if she hasn't thought this through. :pac:

denhaagenite · 22-04-2015 11:55PM

dark crystal wrote: »

It was quite clear from the language you used in the post that it annoyed you. Of course it would.

They criticized your appearance, you criticized theirs. Either way, it's all a bit mean and unnecessary isn't it?

I haven't criticized anyone's appearance, unless using the words "overweight" and "obese" are criticisms.

Frito · 22-04-2015 11:58PM

Tarzana2 wrote: »

It's almost as if she hasn't thought this through. :pac:

I know!

Our sugar consumption has sky-rocketed over the last hundred years, but it's the existence of size 18s and over in High st shops that we really need to focus on.

whatismyname · 22-04-2015 11:58PM

Must keep reminding myself that I'm fat and obese not because I am constantly stuffing my face with crap, but cos the high street have normalised obesity.

dark crystal · 23-04-2015 12:00AM

denhaagenite wrote: »

I haven't criticized anyone's appearance, unless using the words "overweight" and "obese" are criticisms.

You said they had weight problems, which is exactly what they implied about you, just the other way round. Like I said, either way, it's all a bit mean and unnecessary.

I tend to look after my own weight rather than criticize others for theirs. Honestly, making other people feel bad about themselves doesn't do it for me at all.

Tarzana2 · 23-04-2015 12:00AM

denhaagenite wrote: »

This is far too simplistic. Many diseases are directly attributable to overweight and obesity, which has a knock on effect on health spending. Add to this, normalising overweight and obesity has created an epidemic. It's not OK to not keep your weight in check if you can.

Yup, and calorie-dense junk food is in the highest VAT bracket, which means a greater tax take which means more money for health spending. People who eat loads of junk food do pay lots of tax for the pleasure.

Smokers pay lots of tax to help fund the health service BUT distinct from overweight/obese people, also detrimentally affect the health of those around them.

I also never said that people shouldn't try to keep their weight in check, rather than they should not be mocked for being overweight because it is in no way effective and just generally make the mocker look like a gobshíte.

As for there being no need for greater than size 16 in shops. There is a need... because people need it. I'm intrigued. Should people wear ill-fitting clothes because their size isn't stocked. Say someone is a size 22. If nothing greater than size 16 was stocked, is the idea that they will then slim into the smaller size? Because going down that many dress sizes could be more than a year's work. More than a year of not being able to buy clothes that fit? Really?

CarpeDiem85 · 23-04-2015 12:03AM

dark crystal wrote: »

It was quite clear from the language you used in the post that it annoyed you. Of course it would.

They criticized your appearance, you criticized theirs. Either way, it's all a bit mean and unnecessary isn't it?

It's a healthy lifestyle choice v a grossly unhealthy lifestyle choice. Fact, you will not become obese from a good diet or plenty of exercise.

I always get comments from women that I'm skinny (I'm normal) but I can't turn around to them and say, look dear you look very overweight and I'm concerned for your health. You're out of breath talking to me and you eat way too much junk food. I'm concerned you'll get diabetes very soon and you're putting huge strain on your joints. A big part of me is fed up of being polite!

denhaagenite · 23-04-2015 12:05AM

dark crystal wrote: »

You said they had weight problems, which is exactly what they implied about you, just the other way round. Like I said, either way, it's all a bit mean and unnecessary.

I tend to look after my own weight rather than criticize others for theirs. Honestly, making other people feel bad about themselves doesn't do it for me at all.

Overweight and obesity are weight problems. Not appearance problems. This isn't a sly dig, hence why I didn't have a go at them, it's reality. Having a BMI of 21 is not a weight problem so the implication is ridiculous.

Tarzana2 · 23-04-2015 12:07AM

CarpeDiem85 wrote: »

One thing I've got from is this thread is denial.

Lots of people in this thread have said they are overweight.

Others might know they are overweight but just not have mentioned it.

I think you decided the thread was about denial because it suits whatever view you are pushing, despite evidence to the contrary.

denhaagenite · 23-04-2015 12:09AM

Tarzana2 wrote: »

Yup, and calorie-dense junk food is in the highest VAT bracket, which means a greater tax take which means more money for health spending. People who eat loads of junk food do pay lots of tax for the pleasure.

Smokers pay lots of tax to help fund the health service BUT distinct from overweight/obese people, also detrimentally affect the health of those around them.

I also never said that people shouldn't try to keep their weight in check, rather than they should not be mocked for being overweight because it is in no way effective and just generally make the mocker look like a gobshíte.

As for there being no need for greater than size 16 in shops. There is a need... because people need it. I'm intrigued. Should people wear ill-fitting clothes because their size isn't stocked. Say someone is a size 22. If nothing greater than size 16 was stocked, is the idea that they will then slim into the smaller size? Because going down that many dress sizes could be more than a year's work. More than a year of nothing being able to buy clothes that fit? Really?

The more people that are fat, the more people will be fat in the future- it's about what becomes socially acceptable. It's termed an epidemic because it is, effectively, contagious. So arguably as damaging as second hand smoke.

Nobody is suggesting that people shouldn't be allowed to have clothes (LOL :pac:), more that there maybe shouldn't be a special range in H and M or New Look.

Tarzana2 · 23-04-2015 12:09AM

Scarlet Square Dish wrote: »

I don't really buy that it's concern for people's health. I'm quite slim, always have been. Yesterday I had a whole pizza for breakfast, coffee and cigarettes for lunch and a lasagne and wine for dinner. Not an atypical day, but I've never been given any sh1t over what I eat. If I sit down and stuff myself with unhealthy food at a group meal, I'll be told amn't I lucky/isn't it great I don't put weight on. Not "you're going to cost the health service a fortune eating like that, I'm a taxpayer you know!". I get a pass on an unhealthy lifestyle because of how I look, someone a couple of stone heavier than me who could be way healthier is made to feel like sh1t.

+1.

Bringing up health and the cost the health service is a handy shield, when really people just don't like it because it offends their eyes.

denhaagenite · 23-04-2015 12:14AM

Tarzana2 wrote: »

+1.

Bringing up health and the cost the health service is a handy shield, when really people just don't like it because it offends their eyes.

There are lots of things "uglier" than being overweight/ obese, in fact many who are overweight/ obese are far better looking than I. Just not healthier.

Frito · 23-04-2015 12:17AM

No-one is disputing the risks of obesity, just disputing that removing plus size clothes from High st will prove statistically significant as an intervention.

beks101 · 23-04-2015 02:14AM

Ugh, SIGH.

It's exasperatingly futile to try to explain to people who are blatantly just disgusted at people with weight issues that those people are not doing it for their personal displeasure, or because they're lazy gluttonous morons, or because they're weak and would prefer to sit at home and eat all the pies while laughing and pointing gleefully at the fitter, better, morally superior people jogging passed their window.

Seriously lads. Are you that devoid of critical thought and human compassion? Do ye also think that people with drug addiction, nicotine addiction or depression are weak and pitiful people?

There's no doubt that for 99.999% of the population, being slim equates to better health and happiness. More energy, greater agility, better fitness. I love being in shape and I personally love the pay off from sweating my ass off in the gym or curtailing my food intake, which is the reality of what it takes for me to maintain a healthy figure.

But it requires a huge, huge, intensely time consuming and constant, life-long soul-searching endeavour, to be able to reach that stage where I can overcome my personal issues with addiction, emotional eating, self esteem and eating dysfunction to be able to have that self control. And I'm not someone who ever was fat. I've been up and down the weight scale, to no tangible degree in comparison to so many of the people around me in my life who have struggled with the same issues. The battle must be twice as intense for them - to live in this world where food is pushed and marketed as this social tool and yet at the same time - gain weight and you're the devil incarnate.

Seriously, no-one is asking or attempting to "defend overeating". To exercise a shred of compassion for your fellow human and the complex relationship that one can have with food and their own body image, is not requiring you to give up on your morals or principles or personal belief system about health and happiness.

It's to be a bloody decent, thoughtful human being who doesn't go about this world and all it's varying shades of gray in some militant black-or-white, good-or-bad, with-me-or-against-me abrasive way where you seek to learn nothing about the world around you.

folamh · 23-04-2015 03:46AM

Anorexic individuals and people with irrational concerns over their weight are not helped by Jamelia's comments.

folamh · 23-04-2015 03:51AM

Tarzana2 wrote: »

To be honest, her brief mention of very small sizes just seems like tokenism, most of her focus is on the larger sizes.

Oh, and the media is not normalising obesity. You see the odd cosmetic ad cynically trying to cash in on "real" women but for the most part, the ideal pushed in almost every sphere of the media is slender is good, slender is ideal.

As for what the high street stocks, well, they're stocking what sells. Believe me, if they over-order the size 22s, nobody is going to try to fatten up to fit into the surplus. The shops order accordingly for the current buying public. Size 22 (for example) is never to be a goal for people to aspire to.

Exactly. No one looks at obese women and thinks "I want to look like that" and actively strive to be obese, whereas people will look at stick-thin models and go to the most unhealthy means trying to emulate that look. And yet people think that "fat acceptance" is the health concern worth focusing on.

Chloris · 23-04-2015 03:59AM

Can I just interject and say in a supposedly educated society where there is no scarcity of food, for a woman over five foot to weigh under ten stone is nonsense.

I'm 5'6 and have weighed a variety of things between 10 and 12 stone and was never baited to give a SHlT about any of it until I was told I should be ashamed by the radio, quoting someone else yesterday. Then I realised today the amount of stupid workless f*cks out running today. I started screaming out my car window at them "YOU CAN'T RUN AWAY FROM YOUR PROBLEMS".

Then I went back to not giving a tuppenny f*ck about my weight and ice never looked back.

ceadaoin. · 23-04-2015 06:16AM

Chloris wrote: »

Can I just interject and say in a supposedly educated society where there is no scarcity of food, for a woman over five foot to weigh under ten stone is nonsense.
.

That's a ridiculous statement. It entirely depends on your body shape and frame. I'm 5ft 7 with a small frame and I would definitely look plump if I was over 10 stone and wouldn't feel comfortable at all.

CarpeDiem85 · 23-04-2015 07:56AM

I'm sorry but I just can't justify overeating and you can give every excuse in the book but apart from something physical that is holding you back, there is no excuse for it. Over 50% of Irish women over the age of 20 are now considered overweight or obese. It makes me very sad seeing obese children as it's something that their parents have pushed on them with their unhealthy habits and from statistics, only 10% will break out of the cycle. I think it'll be a sad day when I walk into a shop and the clothes sizes in store reflect the obesity epidemic that is going on in this country and throughout the world.

Another sad thing is how popular obese models are becoming. There is one in particular who I won't mention but she is 25+ stone and I don't want to fathom what she eats to get to that size. It makes me sad that it's becoming normalised so much. By the same token, promoting the opposite model size is just as bad. We should be promoting the fit and healthy middle ground.

folamh · 23-04-2015 08:19AM

CarpeDiem85 wrote: »

I'm sorry but I just can't justify overeating and you can give every excuse in the book but apart from something physical that is holding you back, there is no excuse for it. Over 50% of Irish women over the age of 20 are now considered overweight or obese. It makes me very sad seeing obese children as it's something that their parents have pushed on them with their unhealthy habits and from statistics, only 10% will break out of the cycle. I think it'll be a sad day when I walk into a shop and the clothes sizes in store reflect the obesity epidemic that is going on in this country and throughout the world.

Another sad thing is how popular obese models are becoming. There is one in particular who I won't mention but she is 25+ stone and I don't want to fathom what she eats to get to that size. It makes me sad that it's becoming normalised so much. By the same token, promoting the opposite model size is just as bad. We should be promoting the fit and healthy middle ground.

There already is an epidemic. According to the National Eating Disorders Association, 42% of first- to third-grade girls want to lose weight, and 81% of 10-year-olds are afraid of being fat.

Do you think that 50% percent of Irish women *want* to be overweight? Chances are, in this thin-obsessed society, they suffer from low self-esteem.

Also, lots of criticism of overweight women but no mention of 66% of Irish men who are overweight?

crybaby · 23-04-2015 08:26AM

CarpeDiem85 wrote: »

I'm sorry but I just can't justify overeating and you can give every excuse in the book but apart from something physical that is holding you back, there is no excuse for it.

People struggle mentally with weight issues, it is just not as simple as you are making it out to be, why do you think so many people go on diets and then just give up so easily or look at all those gym memberships used for a few weeks and then never again.

Healthy lifestyles are something that need to be instilled in people from a young age and people need to be supported in changing their habits. This nonsense of being fat = being lazy is just not true at all. My mother has been overweight for years yet she managed to raise four children on little to no money and still works at the age of sixty five even though she has problems getting around on a day to day basis. My boss at work is outrageously overweight and yet sets the standard for everyone else in terms of work ethic.

The increases in obesity are terrible but telling people they are just being lazy pigs isn't the way to do it.

UCDVet · 23-04-2015 08:31AM

Given that obese people cost our healthcare system less than fit people, I think we should impose a tax on 'regular' sizes to help cover those costs.

A lot of people go around saying or implying that being overweight costs so much. And, sure, that sounds reasonable, but actual studies that have been conducted show it to be the opposite. Healthy people live longer and it costs a lot to keep living. Particularly when you get to 70+. Obese people have significantly lower lifetime medical costs. And again, this is not my opinion, or my guessing how I think things should be (which is what most people do when they talk about this issue)....this what actual studies show us.

The lifetime costs were :

Healthy: 281,000
Obese: 250,000
Smokers: 220,000

Anyone arguing the cost issue against obesity is just plain wrong. Similarly, all of our VAT/taxes that make candy and cigarettes more expensive in an attempt to offset the societal costs are wrong. Completely backwards.

People are just using the financial argument because they *want* an objective, scientific sounding reason to say, 'You should live your life how I want you to'. It's not popular to say, 'I don't like fat people', it's far easier to say, 'We need to stop fat acceptance in our society because it is bankrupt our health services! So, we shouldn't sell fat clothes in regular shops! Make the fatties order clothes at home!!!!'

But, it makes no sense.

folamh · 23-04-2015 08:31AM

I'd also point out that compulsive overeating involves the same neuroprocesses as drug and alcohol addiction (and even anorexia!). But because it has a visible side-effect that people don't like to see, fat people have become easy scapegoats for criticism compared to people with other vices and weaknesses.

That's not to say that all fat people are compulsive over-eaters or binge-eaters, but there is a large overlap.

UCDVet · 23-04-2015 08:38AM

folamh wrote: »

There already is an epidemic. According to the National Eating Disorders Association, 42% of first- to third-grade girls want to lose weight, and 81% of 10-year-olds are afraid of being fat.

Do you think that 50% percent of Irish women *want* to be overweight? Chances are, in this thin-obsessed society, they suffer from low self-esteem.

Also, lots of criticism of overweight women but no mention of 66% of Irish men who are overweight?

I don't believe this low self-esteem causes weight gain.

For starters, self-esteem increases with age, peaking around 55
https://econstudentlog.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/self-esteem-life-trajectory.png

If low self-esteem were associated with obesity, we'd expect to see decreasing obesity rates as we age. Instead, we see the opposite, obesity rates/bmi by age goes up until we're old enough that medical issues bring it down. There are more overweight 40 year olds than 30 year olds than 20 year olds.

Beyond that, our society now is more accepting of obesity than ever before. Just watching tele last night, I saw more than one commercial for plus-sized clothing shops, with large girls doing fashion shots throughout. When I was a child, I do remember kids making fun of the fat kid (sad but true). Now, at my nephew's school kids make fun of the SKINNY kid.

I feel like pressure to be 'in shape' is at an all time low. It certainly can't believe it's higher now than it was in the 70s.

Finally, to answer your question - I honestly think the vast majority (but not all) of overweight people want to be overweight (myself included). Now, sure, all other things being equal, we'd all want to be rich/famous/successful/attractive and in shape. So, if you asked an overweight person if they'd like to magically be in shape, they'd probably say yes. But it's not complicated to be in shape. If you asked that same overweight person if they'd rather give up all the food they enjoy, go on a strict diet, and work out for an hour per day, for the next two or three years, so that they can obtain a great physique - I think they'd all say no.

There isn't anything wrong with that. We all make choices. I'd rather go to lunch, spend 6 quid, and get a 9" pepperoni pizza with chips and wash it down with a Coke, than eat some lean tofu crap. Hell, it's the highlight of my day. It's delicious. But every time I do it, I'm choosing to be overweight. I'd rather be overweight, eat that food for lunch, come home and play computer games, than skip the lunch, come home, run a 10k, and wash my laundry on my abs.

whatismyname · 23-04-2015 08:39AM

folamh wrote: »

Do you think that 50% percent of Irish women *want* to be overweight? Chances are, in this thin-obsessed society, they suffer from low self-esteem.

Nah, I think they nailed it tbh.

I just keep reaching for all the bad food, not cos it's feeding my emotions and making me feel better for a little while, but cos I LOVE being fat.

I love knowing that I'm the fattest one in my circle of friends.

I love that I have a whole wardrobe of clothes that don't fit me, cos this means I get to buy new clothes, it's great!

I love that I'm half convinced that the guy who I have been starting to get with, but who thinks it may not work out, thinks this cos I'm so fat and unattractive.

I love that I probably will enjoy my beach holiday in May less due to being uncomfortable with my belly, and I love how hard it is to find bikini bottoms that are going to hold it all in.

I love how hard it is to change my ways even though I keep trying actually fairly fecking hard, cos at least I get to reward myself for my efforts with a massive big part of chocolate.

I love how I was quite pleased when I realised I'd not cut myself for months, or even felt an urge to for a while, but then realised that that's cos I don't usually have a need to anymore, not when stuffing my face full of yummy food has way more of an impact than cutting usually did.

I love how my psychologist does not seem to take my food problem as seriously as if I was still cutting myself, even though it probably affects me more.

I love my big flabby arms, and the difficulty of finding decent tops to suit them.

I love how cool I look in photos with my double chin.

I really, really love how I have had to change to wearing more dresses and skirts, cos it's felt literally impossible to find trousers to fit, be it they're stuck to me, or they're too loose, and I love that belts in shop don't seem long enough to go round bigger bellies.

I love how I couldn't continue my weight loss class in the gym due to how anxiety provoking it was being, especially cos the fit guy who runs it was so mechanical, seemed to have no clue about emotional connection with food, who seemed to just see us as mechanical machines. I love how the last session caused a panic attack, cos hey at least I got to KFC a bit sooner.

I love the judgement and lack of understanding and how people say it's 'excuses'. There are complex reasons behind things related to complex human beings. Reasons, not excuses. I can give reasons, but that doesn't mean I'm excusing it. There's such a huge difference.

I love how no matter how hard I try I always seem to go back to my bad ways, cos when I'm feeling so bad inside, it helps, it gets me through.

And I particularly love how it's really just another reason for me to see myself as a stupid, fat, worthless, failure, who can't even do something as straightforward as stopping shoving fatty food into her fat gob, and can't just eat properly instead. It's about my emotions, not about food, but surely I'm just a weak, stupid failure if I can't just deal with my emotions in healthier ways after all this time. Yep, I definitely particularly love that feeling, and how it just reinforces so much of what I already feel is bad about me.

folamh · 23-04-2015 08:45AM

UCDVet wrote: »

I don't believe this low self-esteem causes weight gain.

For starters, self-esteem increases with age, peaking around 55
https://econstudentlog.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/self-esteem-life-trajectory.png

If low self-esteem were associated with obesity, we'd expect to see decreasing obesity rates as we age. Instead, we see the opposite, obesity rates/bmi by age goes up until we're old enough that medical issues bring it down. There are more overweight 40 year olds than 30 year olds than 20 year olds.

Beyond that, our society now is more accepting of obesity than ever before. Just watching tele last night, I saw more than one commercial for plus-sized clothing shops, with large girls doing fashion shots throughout. When I was a child, I do remember kids making fun of the fat kid (sad but true). Now, at my nephew's school kids make fun of the SKINNY kid.

I feel like pressure to be 'in shape' is at an all time low. It certainly can't believe it's higher now than it was in the 70s.

I agree that low self-esteem in itself doesn't cause weight gain. In fact for many people it's a contributing factor for weight loss (anorexics tend to have low self-esteem). But I didn't say that it causes weight gain. I said that fat people are likely to have low self-esteem.

Although not a causal factor in itself, low self-esteem *can* exacerbate obesity in that it contributes to lack of motivation to exercise and eat healthfully.

folamh · 23-04-2015 08:50AM

"For starters, self-esteem increases with age, peaking around 55"

That might be a general trend, but wouldn't people with eating problems like binge-eating, anorexia and EDNOS be anomalous to the general population? Persistant low self-esteem is highly correlated with eating disorders.

Jamelia: 'High street shops shouldn't sell plus size clothing'

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