Does it bother you more when non-Catholics mock Catholicism?

Eugene Norman · 22-04-2015 07:26PM

Zen65 wrote: »

What is your point, exactly?

Of course people are slower to criticise Islam publicly, because its followers have displayed the capacity to react with extremes of violence which result in death. Christians put heretics to death in the past too, so I think it's fair to suggest that as faiths age the followers get less uptight.

In the 1970's and 1980's you would not walk into an unfamiliar bar in Northern Ireland and ask where the Protestants (or Catholics) sit. You would try to be as unobtrusive as possible and enjoy your drink without drawing attention to yourself. That was not because you thought their faiths were not mockable, it was because you had the sense not to provoke an act of sectarian hatred.

I always love the way intolerant responses to clearly written paragraphs are prefaced with "what is your point exactly". You understood his point, since you answered it. Your answer was hopeless however.

The Northern Irish problem wasn't really about differences about transubstantiation. It wasn't really a sectarian conflict, the church opposed all killings. Some republican groups were atheist.

And where's the evidence that religions get more tolerant as they age. Islam was more tolerant at one stage.

Ghost Buster · 22-04-2015 07:32PM

billyhead wrote: »

It does bother me when people insult my religion. I am a practising catholic and my faith is important to me. Its nobodys business what people follow or believe in so anyone who enjoys mocking someone elses beliefs is a clown. Imagine this same topic been posted in a mostly muslim country and the reaction it would receive.

Your religion has talking snakes, dead people coming back to life, ladies getting pregnant by magic, bread turning into a gods flesh and hundreds of other equally bizarre things in it and your leaders are hell bent on making it everybody's business so who's the clown?

catallus · 22-04-2015 07:35PM

The only clowns are the ones who reject the majesty of God's creation.

It is a peculiar blindness, and all the more so because it rejects the glory of 2000 years of philosophy built upon actual miracles.

lazygal · 22-04-2015 07:37PM

billyhead wrote: »

It does bother me when people insult my religion. I am a practising catholic and my faith is important to me. Its nobodys business what people follow or believe in so anyone who enjoys mocking someone elses beliefs is a clown. Imagine this same topic been posted in a mostly muslim country and the reaction it would receive.

It most certainly is my business when the faith you follow controls schools, influences cancer treatment, introduced an anti abortion amendment which has resulted in Ireland exporting its abortion rate and irritates me with bongs for its call to prayer on the national broadcaster.

Plus, do you follow all the rules? No contraception? Only receive communion in a state of grace? Sex only for the purposes of procreation for couples married in the catholic church? Do you think I'm not married because I didn't have a catholic wedding?

looksee · 22-04-2015 07:37PM

catallus wrote: »

The only clowns are the ones who reject the majesty of God's creation.

It is a peculiar blindness, and all the more so because it rejects the glory of 2000 years of philosophy built upon actual miracles.

Zen65 · 22-04-2015 07:48PM

Eugene Norman wrote: »

I always love the way intolerant responses to clearly written paragraphs are prefaced with "what is your point exactly". You understood his point, since you answered it. Your answer was hopeless however.

No, I do not. I understand that he is drawing a comparison between people being confident to mock Christianity compared to their tendency not to mock Islam, for fear of repercussion. But the thread is a response to how bothered you are about non-Catholics mocking Catholicism.

Comparing the mocking of Islam and the mocking of Christianity does not add to that debate one bit. It is like drawing the comparison between teasing your own pet Labrador with your fingers versus doing the same to an unknown Rottweiler. No sane person would suggest that you have double standards if you chose not to tease the Rottweiler.

And despite the perceived rise in fundamentalism within Islam, my observation of Muslims generally is that there are now larger numbers of moderates among them. Muslims that I meet from (and in) the Middle East say that they see a shift in attitude among mainstream younger Muslims away from the more rigid adherence to traditional teachings. This is possibly not noticed because the fundamentalists are escalating their level of 'terrorist' activity.

Zen65 · 22-04-2015 07:56PM

catallus wrote: »

The only clowns are the ones who reject the majesty of God's creation.

But which god?

There are currently hundreds of faiths in the world and they all revere a different god, or in some cases a very similar god with variations, or multiple gods. Some religions do not have a definitive position on the existence of a god at all, and others accept every possible god.

Many of those hundreds of religions make claims of their gods having performed miracles, but as yet no miracle has ever been scientifically proven to occur (which is not to say that this is proof that no miracle ever occurred . . . you cannot prove a negative).

catallus · 22-04-2015 08:04PM

Zen65 wrote: »

But which god?

Would you not consider this to be the wrong question?

Maybe you should ask yourself that.

So many have God "all on the outside" and give no consideration to the godliness within themselves.

An analogous question would be "Which sun?" Silliness, really.

Zen65 · 22-04-2015 08:06PM

billyhead wrote: »

It does bother me when people insult my religion.

That's understandable. Religions should not be insulted per se. However critical thinking demands that all beliefs, whether they be about the existence of a deity or the morality of actions, should be open to questioning. It should not be sufficient to demand respect for your belief because you draw the obscure title of religion over it.

Some faiths forbid women to drive cars, some demand cash, and some condone stoning non-believers. Is it the case that society should accept these human rights abuses because they are based on a religious belief?

I have no beef with a person believing in a god, but I do reject that idea that I must believe in that god also, because their god demands it.

Zen65 · 22-04-2015 08:10PM

catallus wrote: »

Would you not consider this to be the wrong question?

No, it is the right question.

Unlike the Sun (which is the name we give to one observable and measurable star) there are no observable gods, but many beliefs in the existence of gods. Asking which one you believe me to be a clown for not believing in really emphasises the point the you, and most believers, disbelieve in far more gods than you believe in. You and I only differ by one god amongst hundreds!

bnt · 22-04-2015 08:13PM

billyhead wrote: »

It does bother me when people insult my religion. I am a practising catholic and my faith is important to me. Its nobodys business what people follow or believe in so anyone who enjoys mocking someone elses beliefs is a clown. Imagine this same topic been posted in a mostly muslim country and the reaction it would receive.

The problem with that "nobody's business" idea is that Catholicism is all about interference in the business of others. Catholics tell people when and how to have sex, hijack your kids for the Church soon after they're born (when they have no say), control what kids are taught in school, and so on.

If Catholics kept their religion to themselves, there would be no problem, but you don't, and therefore your religion is fair game for pushback whenever it impinges on non-Catholics.

catbear · 22-04-2015 08:15PM

It bugs me when cultural catholics take justified criticism of the RCC as a personal attack.

catallus · 22-04-2015 08:22PM

Zen65 wrote: »

No, it is the right question.

Unlike the Sun (which is the name we give to one observable and measurable star) there are no observable gods, but many beliefs in the existence of gods. Asking which one you believe me to be a clown for not believing in really emphasises the point the you, and most believers, disbelieve in far more gods than you believe in. You and I only differ by one god amongst hundreds!

No, it is quite plainly the wrong question. I'm saying you're a clown because you seem incapable of abstraction, unwilling to see anything beyond the tip of your own nose, and are bereft of any sense of transcendence in humanity, and are therefore blind to the concept of faith and responsibility.

And it is those things, faith and responsibility, which are the human hallmarks of religious belief, which make religion the epitome of culture.

Do people corrupt religion? Yes they do. But that is where the responsibility of morality comes in. And the fact that much of modern trash-culture dispenses with both morality and responsibility makes it the playground of faithless pagans who can do nothing but try and rip the robes of culture and religion to shreds with their gormless and mindless catch-cries.

But most people wake up to the lies of the theophobes in time!

Zen65 · 22-04-2015 08:31PM

catallus wrote: »

I'm saying you're a clown because you seem incapable of abstraction, unwilling to see anything beyond the tip of your own nose, and are bereft of any sense of transcendence in humanity, and are therefore blind to the concept of faith and responsibility.

How do you know what I am capable of?

Why is it that you feel the need to insult me when I asked you a very simple question about your view? How exactly does that show your religion to be the epitome of culture? If your behaviour here is an example of that culture I must say it does not appeal to me. It certainly does not suggest that you have attained 'transcendence in humanity'.

catallus · 22-04-2015 08:32PM

Bit sensitive are you?

Zen65 · 22-04-2015 08:37PM

catallus wrote: »

Bit sensitive are you?

Not in the slightest. I have no idea who you are.

I would like to discuss the concepts though, and not find myself at the receiving end of condemnation and abuse for asking the question. Your responses indicate that you cannot in fact discuss the concepts in a civil way, which is disappointing. Perhaps you should pray to whichever god you worship for greater patience?

Be at peace,

Duke O Smiley · 22-04-2015 08:38PM

I'm Catholic myself, I go to mass a couple of time a month and I have beliefs, I'm hardly a saint now and no devotee but nevertheless I do my best and have my reasons for it. I'd say I'd struggle to go 2 days without hearing some sort of slagging going on but it's hardly my problem so I don't listen to it, but understandably people have a gripe with Catholicism in Ireland, let them, it isn't my problem and anybody who lets it affect them is a bit of a nonce.

I do however have a problem with people who mock my beliefs right in front of me. It really, really annoys me, and it's just such a scummy thing to do to anyone's beliefs or opinions on anything. My brother is an atheist, and a complete demeaning little prick in this respect, as are a couple of my "friends" too, who think it's a great laugh.

An awful lot of Irish people are the very same. God forbid someone in this day and age would want to be a Catholic.

Zen65 · 22-04-2015 08:41PM

Duke O Smiley wrote: »

I'd say I'd struggle to go 2 days without hearing some sort of slagging going on but it's hardly my problem so I don't listen to it, but understandably people have a gripe with Catholicism in Ireland, let them, it isn't my problem and anybody who lets it affect them is a bit of a nonce.

I suspect you do not understand the meaning of the word 'nonce' ??

May I respectfully suggest you look it up? You may want to retract that statement!

cloud493 · 22-04-2015 08:42PM

I don't care. Slag it off all you want (as a practising catholic) its a bloody democracy, I know I slag it off from time to time, along with every religion under the sun, and people have and should use that right.

Duke O Smiley · 22-04-2015 08:43PM

Zen65 wrote: »

I suspect you do not understand the meaning of the word 'nonce' ??

May I respectfully suggest you look it up? You may want to retract that statement!

Nonse

kylith · 22-04-2015 08:46PM

catallus wrote: »

The only clowns are the ones who reject the majesty of God's creation.

It is a peculiar blindness, and all the more so because it rejects the glory of 2000 years of philosophy built upon actual miracles.

Yeah, those child-blinding eye-worms are real majestic.

Zen65 · 22-04-2015 08:47PM

Duke O Smiley wrote: »

I do however have a problem with people who mock my beliefs right in front of me. It really, really annoys me, and it's just such a scummy thing to do to anyone's beliefs or opinions on anything.

May I ask what you mean by 'mock'? I may have asked this already elsewhere in the thread but I didn't get a response.

Do you consider it mocking if your brother asks you to explain why you believe certain articles of your faith?

I ask out of genuine interest. I was raised in a Catholic family but knew from a fairly early age that I could not accept the teachings to be true. Decades later when I used the term 'atheist' to describe myself my family were shocked and a little offended. When I questioned them about their faith they seemed offended but eventually admitted that they did not believe in most aspects of it; they simply liked the sense of identity that declaring themselves to be Catholic gave them.

Are you open to debating your faith with your brother?

Zen65 · 22-04-2015 08:50PM

Duke O Smiley wrote: »

Nonse

That might not be what you want either! I'd suggest 'ninny'?

Duke O Smiley · 22-04-2015 08:56PM

Zen65 wrote: »

May I ask what you mean by 'mock'? I may have asked this already elsewhere in the thread but I didn't get a response.

Do you consider it mocking if your brother asks you to explain why you believe certain articles of your faith?

I ask out of genuine interest. I was raised in a Catholic family but knew from a fairly early age that I could not accept the teachings to be true. Decades later when I used the term 'atheist' to describe myself my family were shocked and a little offended. When I questioned them about their faith they seemed offended but eventually admitted that they did not believe in most aspects of it; they simply liked the sense of identity that declaring themselves to be Catholic gave them.

Are you open to debating your faith with your brother?

Sorry, I didn't read through the whole thread.

My brother is genuinely just not open to a civil discussion about religion. He studys physics and he just likes to tell me why what I believe in isn't true in a very demeaning and mocking manner.

My parents are Catholic, and I am. All of my siblings are either atheist or just undecided.

We don't often discuss religion at home as a result.

Duke O Smiley · 22-04-2015 08:57PM

Zen65 wrote: »

That might not be what you want either! I'd suggest 'ninny'?

nonse
A person who speaks nonsense

Always has been this for me.

Ninny always works too.

Zen65 · 22-04-2015 08:58PM

Duke O Smiley wrote: »

Sorry, I didn't read through the whole thread.

My brother is genuinely just not open to a civil discussion about religion. He studys physics and he just likes to tell me why what I believe in isn't true in a very demeaning and mocking manner.

Is he older or younger?

Duke O Smiley · 22-04-2015 08:59PM

Zen65 wrote: »

Is he older or younger?

Older by 4 years

Zen65 · 22-04-2015 09:01PM

Duke O Smiley wrote: »

nonse
A person who speaks nonsense

Always has been this for me.

Ninny always works too.

OK, but the Merriam-Webster dictionary does not have this word . . . it suggests 'nonce' which, well, you know . . .

Zen65 · 22-04-2015 09:03PM

Duke O Smiley wrote: »

Older by 4 years

OK

He's in college, you're in secondary school?

Duke O Smiley · 22-04-2015 09:04PM

Zen65 wrote: »

OK

He's in college, you're in secondary school?

He's in college and I work

Does it bother you more when non-Catholics mock Catholicism?

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