Does it bother you more when non-Catholics mock Catholicism?

MakeEmLaugh

Though church attendance has never been lower in the Republic of Ireland among Catholics (it was 30% in 2011, as opposed to 91% in 1973), many people still identify as Catholic, culturally at least.

84.2% of people identified as Catholic in the 2011 census.

For those who do identify as lapsed Catholic, atheist or agnostic, do you think there's a difference between someone from a Catholic background mocking Catholicism, or making light of the Catholic church, and someone who doesn't come from that background?

Take Bill Maher, the controversial comedian and talk show host in America. Maher has always been upfront about being raised Catholic, and coming from an Irish background (he tweeted in 2012 “Watching rerun of [Olympic] opening ceremony at 3am. Despite all the **** they've given my people - the Irish - over the centuries, I still love the Brits”).

Maher is nevertheless very critical of the Catholic Church today.

In 2008 he said “If you have a few hundred followers and you let some of them molest children, they call you a cult leader. If you have a billion, they call you ‘Pope.’

It’s like if you can’t pay your mortgage, you’re a deadbeat, but if you can’t pay a million mortgages, you’re Bear Stearns, and we bail you out. And that’s who the Catholic Church is, the Bear Stearns of organized pedophilia. Too big to fail.”

Similarly, George Carlin, another American comedian, spoke of his Catholic upbringing many times during his career. In one of his HBO specials, he said

“But, in the meantime what they [Catholic bishops] ought to be doing is telling these priests who took a vow of chastity to keep their hands off the altar boys! Keep your hands to yourself, Father! You know? When Jesus said "Suffer the little children come unto me", that's not what he was talking about!”

However, there are many celebrities and comedians who do not come from a Catholic background who haved mocked Catholicisms and the scandals in the Church over the past few years.

Harry Shearer, who many will know as the voice of many characters on The Simpsons, including Mr Burns, has quipped, more than once, “Jack Benny took a fatherly interest in me – not in the Catholic priest sense of the word”.

John Landis, who directed Animal House, An American Werewolf in London and Trading Places, was once speaking about The Exorcist. He said, “it takes a basically ludicrous premise – Satan is in the body of this little girl, and somehow the Church, when they're not molesting young boys, will protect us from Satan!”.

Penn Jillette of Penn and Teller, in their documentary series Bullsh-t, had a joke about how “the Catholic church is in trouble. Priests raping boys will do that”.

While the content of each of these jokes is somewhat similar, what marks them as different is that Carlin and Maher were both raised Catholic, while Shearer, Landis and Jillette weren't.

Do you think people who come from a Catholic background have more of a right to mock Catholicism than those who don't come from that background? Or is a joke made from someone from a non-Catholic background no different than a joke made by someone from a Catholic background?

wretcheddomain

Rule #1 for AH after 1am - threads should be no longer than 2 sentences.

You trying to help people sleep or something? Had I made it to the end, I wouldn't be posting here that's for sure.

Dozer Dave

Tldr max 10 words op.

MakeEmLaugh

wretcheddomain wrote: »

Rule #1 for AH after 1am - threads should be no longer than 2 sentences.

It's only after 1am if you're on Greenwich Mean Time+1.

Arsemageddon

Having been forced to listen to all that Catholicism shyte when I was a young fell\a means I couldn't give a flying fvck if people mock it.

Links234

Given the amount of ill the catholic church has visited upon society, Magdeline laundaries, babies tossed in a septic tank, covering up child rape, I think the least they can do is take a bit of mockery on the chin

shruikan2553

Much like Jimmy and Rolf learnt, if you don't want people to mock you, you probably should have thought of that before the molesting and covering it up.

As someone else mentioned, the mockery is aimed at the organisation itself, not the people who just happened to be baptised.

Junkyard Tom

Those examples are largely mocking the institutional dysfunctional and clergy of the RCC rather than having a go at every single Catholic.

efb

if they didn't cover up so much for the paedos maybe, but they did, so both barrels

nokia69

nope

don't care

sticks and stones

DareGod

There is no Santa Clause, there is no Mickey Mouse and there is no God.

Why can't we just leave it there?

How much farther along would we be as a species if we finally did. Sigh.

emigrate2012

Sure are busy at the iona "institute" social media department these days.....

The concept is comedy,no? After hours pal,bar talk/ gallows humor-yup

Soft skins/humorless/dry suites-NO!

Gtfo......

Arsemageddon

DareGod wrote: »

There is no Santa Clause, there is no Mickey Mouse and there is no God.

Why can't we just leave it there?

How much farther along would we be as a species if we finally did. Sigh.

In fairness, I don't think Mickey Mouse or Santa Claus have held us back too much.

emigrate2012

Makeemlaugh,make 'em cry....

MakeEmLaugh

emigrate2012 wrote: »

Sure are busy at the iona "institute" social media department these days.....

The concept is comedy,no? After hours pal,bar talk/ gallows humor-yup

Soft skins/humorless/dry suites-NO!

Gtfo......

What's funny is that you think the Iona Institute would ever write a post like this.

I doubt they can quote George Carlin and Bill Maher.

Adyx

wretcheddomain wrote: »

Rule #1 for AH after 1am - threads should be no longer than 2 sentences.

You trying to help people sleep or something? Had I made it to the end, I wouldn't be posting here that's for sure.

Better OP than you've ever posted that's for sure.

shruikan2553

emigrate2012 wrote: »

Sure are busy at the iona "institute" social media department these days.....

The concept is comedy,no? After hours pal,bar talk/ gallows humor-yup

Soft skins/humorless/dry suites-NO!

Gtfo......

The OP has sources, can't be Iona.

emigrate2012

Haha,I suppose that kind of blasphemy is highly restricted in that place... Zenu is coming.

Adyx

I've posted before about my disdain for the attitude of a lot of atheists. Although I was born into a "semi-catholic" family, I cannot honestly say I ever truly believed in a god. At the same time what someone chooses or needs to believe in is no business of mine as long as they leave me out of it. I actually have a lot of respect (and a begrudging admiration if I'm honest) for spiritual people.

I therefore strongly disagree with mocking individual people who have faith. Organised religion on the other hand can suck my balls. :cool:

stinkle

Those instances in OP arent mocking catholicism, they're righly condemning the criminal antics perpetrated by some of its members and enabled by others

MakeEmLaugh

I guess my main point was that, Jewish people like Mel Brooks can make a comedy about a musical based on the Jewish holocaust. If a person who wasn't Jewish did the same, would it be treated the same? I don't know.

Someone who was raised Catholic, or even raised in a country like the Republic of Ireland - where the Catholic Angelus is broadcast every day at 6:00pm on television and radio - come from a slightly different tradition than someone who wasn't raised in a similar environment.

Do Catholics/lapsed Catholics have more of a right to mock the Church than others?

shruikan2553

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

I guess my main point was that, Jewish people like Mel Brooks can make a comedy about a musical based on the Jewish holocaust. If a person who wasn't Jewish did the same, would it be treated the same? I don't know.

Someone who was raised Catholic, or even raised in a country like the Republic of Ireland - where the Catholic Angelus is broadcast every day at 6:00pm on television and radio - come from a slightly different tradition than someone who wasn't raised in a similar environment.

Do Catholics/lapsed Catholics have more of a right to mock the Church than others?

With the holocaust the Jews were the victims, not the perpetrators. Hence you'll see jokes about nazis being more acceptable than jokes about Jews.

When it comes to jokes about victims then there does tend to be a situation where only people in that group can can really make jokes about themselves, the jokes would tend to be quite dark too.

P_1

The organisation is fair game considering what they did to this country. Individuals? Depends on the extent to which they try to force their way of life on me.

K4t

Adyx wrote: »

I actually have a lot of respect (and a begrudging admiration if I'm honest) for spiritual people.

Why? As opposed to non-spiritual people.

I'm equally as pleased to see Catholics and non-Catholics mocking Catholicism.

porsche959

Does it bother you more when non-Catholics mock Catholicism?

As someone that is lapsed Catholic, by and large, no.

The only occasion when it mildly bothers me is when a non-Catholic is mocking Catholicism as a kind of semi-opaque ruse to convert the Catholic to the non-Catholic's own brand of religious mumbo-jumbo (usually, a fundamentalist brand of Protestantism). The late Ian Paisley sr used to do this rather a lot (he had an entire section of his website devoted to 'Ministering to Catholics').

kneemos

Cat licks are very coarse.

crockholm

Ah Anti-Catholicism-the last accecptable form of bigotry.

PLL

Greatly, yes. I was interrogated at a dinner party by my oh's atheist cousin once. Asking me why I am I getting my child baptised, is it only because churches are pretty??! I just told her that I believed in God. She laughed (she was also drunk).

What I don't understand is that any religious people I know are fairly private about it and don't make speeches about their belief system. Where as people that have no religion are constantly making a point to mock religions and people for believing in them. I just find myself thinking 'shut up!' Why can I believe what I want and you believe what you want and we we'll talk about something else. Sadly no.


Edit: I should note that general jokes about Catholicism don't bother me at all. It is atheists interrogating me, asking me to justify why i believe what I believe to them, so they can mock ME personally that bothers me.

MakeEmLaugh

porsche959 wrote: »

As someone that is lapsed Catholic, by and large, no.

The only occasion when it mildly bothers me is when a non-Catholic is mocking Catholicism as a kind of semi-opaque ruse to convert the Catholic to the non-Catholic's own brand of religious mumbo-jumbo (usually, a fundamentalist brand of Protestantism). The late Ian Paisley sr used to do this rather a lot (he had an entire section of his website devoted to 'Ministering to Catholics').

Yes, Paisley mocked Catholicism mercilessly. As in this clip, which mentions "Bachelor priests".

Is Paisley mocking Catholicism is no different than someone who was raised Catholic and is now atheist mocking Catholicism? Does he have as much of a right to mock it? I don't know.

K4t

crockholm wrote: »

Ah Anti-Catholicism-the last accecptable form of bigotry.

There is nothing unfair or irrational about opposing Catholicism. And tolerance of intolerance is NOT tolerance.

crockholm

K4t wrote: »

There is nothing unfair or irrational about opposing Catholicism. And tolerance of intolerance is NOT tolerance.

And do you honestly Believe that the same applies to all beliefs,or just that one in particular?

K4t

PLL wrote: »

What I don't understand is that any religious people I know are fairly private about it and don't make speeches about their belief system. Where as people that have no religion are constantly making a point to mock religions and people for believing in them. I just find myself thinking 'shut up!' Why can I believe what I want and you believe what you want and we we'll talk about something else. Sadly no.

Because your friends (i.e. other Catholics) constantly attempt to enforce their religious beliefs on non-Catholics. Things would be fine if all Catholics were fairly private like yourself and those you know, but you and I both know that that is not the case, never has been, and never will be.

conorh91

Links234 wrote: »

babies tossed in a septic tank

Bizarre how some people can proclaim facts in advance of an important judgment, let alone speculate on the context (and facts) available to the individuals concerned.

But to present questionable 'facts' such as baby-dumping as being in any way reliable is absurd, and to do so in the middle of a referendum campaign would be worthy of some kind of infraction, or be due national-media attention... if it were on the other side.

crockholm

conorh91 wrote: »

Bizarre how some people can proclaim facts in advance of an important judgment, let alone speculate on the context (and facts) available to the individuals concerned.

But to present questionable 'facts' such as baby-dumping as being in any way reliable is absurd, and to do so in the middle of a referendum campaign would be worthy of some kind of infraction, or be due national-media attention... if it were on the other side.

Leave it out,man. Did you not read the other thread when the Pope kicked her dog:mad:

Korat

I don't mind people having a go at Catholicism, I'm not religious but had the indoctrination, it has plenty to answer for.

But a long time ago I was having dinner with some nice German people and a senile old lady in the group had a go at the Catholics in NI killing the Protestants and it was the perfect troll. I reacted badly, I went full defensive and extolled at length the virtues of a Catholic upbringing I never appreciated much myself, even though it was clear everyone else at the table was embarrassed by the old lady's comment.

I didn't respond with the obvious retort, I'm sure that was what the deranged old hag wanted.

porsche959

K4t wrote: »

Because your friends (i.e. other Catholics) constantly attempt to enforce their religious beliefs on non-Catholics. Things would be fine if all Catholics were fairly private like yourself and those you know, but you and I both know that that is not the case, never has been, and never will be.

How dreadful!

Can you give some examples?

Alias G

PLL wrote: »

Greatly, yes. I was interrogated at a dinner party by my oh's atheist cousin once. Asking me why I am I getting my child baptised, is it only because churches are pretty??! I just told her that I believed in God. She laughed (she was also drunk).

What I don't understand is that any religious people I know are fairly private about it and don't make speeches about their belief system. Where as people that have no religion are constantly making a point to mock religions and people for believing in them. I just find myself thinking 'shut up!' Why can I believe what I want and you believe what you want and we we'll talk about something else. Sadly no.


Edit: I should note that general jokes about Catholicism don't bother me at all. It is atheists interrogating me, asking me to justify why i believe what I believe to them, so they can mock ME personally that bothers me.

I see no reason why subjects which are patently ridiculous should not be the subject of ridicule.

porsche959

Alias G wrote: »

I see no reason why subjects which are patently ridiculous should not be the subject of ridicule.

See, that's why you don't get invited to dinner parties any more.

lazygal

porsche959 wrote: »

How dreadful!

Can you give some examples?

Maybe 92% of schools being allowed to refuse to hire gay teachers to protect their ethos? And getting state money to indoctrinate children?

El_Duderino 09

Is the op claiming clerical paedophilia is an 'us people' word and we should claim it back?

MakeEmLaugh

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

Maher is nevertheless very critical of the Catholic Church today.

In 2008 he said “If you have a few hundred followers and you let some of them molest children, they call you a cult leader. If you have a billion, they call you ‘Pope.’

It’s like if you can’t pay your mortgage, you’re a deadbeat, but if you can’t pay a million mortgages, you’re Bear Stearns, and we bail you out. And that’s who the Catholic Church is, the Bear Stearns of organized pedophilia. Too big to fail.”

Similarly, George Carlin, another American comedian, spoke of his Catholic upbringing many times during his career. In one of his HBO specials, he said

“But, in the meantime what they [Catholic bishops] ought to be doing is telling these priests who took a vow of chastity to keep their hands off the altar boys! Keep your hands to yourself, Father! You know? When Jesus said "Suffer the little children come unto me", that's not what he was talking about!”

However, there are many celebrities and comedians who do not come from a Catholic background who haved mocked Catholicisms and the scandals in the Church over the past few years.

Harry Shearer, who many will know as the voice of many characters on The Simpsons, including Mr Burns, has quipped, more than once, “Jack Benny took a fatherly interest in me – not in the Catholic priest sense of the word”.

John Landis, who directed Animal House, An American Werewolf in London and Trading Places, was once speaking about The Exorcist. He said, “it takes a basically ludicrous premise – Satan is in the body of this little girl, and somehow the Church, when they're not molesting young boys, will protect us from Satan!”.

Penn Jillette of Penn and Teller, in their documentary series Bullsh-t, had a joke about how “the Catholic church is in trouble. Priests raping boys will do that”.

It doesn't bother me whether the comedian is Catholic or not.

Nor does criticism of the Church bother me.

The one thing I would note is that not one of the 5 comedians you mention managed to come up with a joke, or even a witticism. I mean, Carlin's "suffer little children to come onto me"...sheesh like no one spotted that line when they were 14.

Painful, laboured, unfunny.

MakeEmLaugh

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Is the op claiming clerical paedophilia is an 'us people' word and we should claim it back?

No, I'm asking if people from a Catholic background are bothered by those who aren't from a Catholic background deriving humour from scandals in the Catholic Church.

eviltwin

I have no issues with any faith being attacked, individuals not so much unless they are the types to try and force us all to live some Catholic version of sharia law. Follow you own faith and its fine but try and force me to live according to your bible and we have a problem.

pwurple

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

No, I'm asking if people from a Catholic background are bothered by those who aren't from a Catholic background deriving humour from scandals in the Catholic Church.

It's usually done by people who are from a Catholic background though, which brings a giant eye roll from me. Multi-generational people of other faiths and non-faiths alike are never as disrespectful/rude to catholics as a newly formed ex-catholic, with their wide-eyed new awakening.

The zeal of the recent convert.

Give them another 50 years to get used to it and they might chill out again.

Ps, poll makes no sense. "More" than what?

El_Duderino 09

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

No, I'm asking if people from a Catholic background are bothered by those who aren't from a Catholic background deriving humour from scandals in the Catholic Church.

OK. No is the answer. I enjoy religious humour which wouldn't work if I was precious about one religion over the others

Are you asking specifically about child abuse jokes? There's plenty of Christian humour in general but the only jokes I hear about catholics are about paedophilia. Transubstantiation jokes are tough to come up with.

lazygal

pwurple wrote: »

It's usually done by people who are from a Catholic background though, which brings a giant eye roll from me. Multi-generational people of other faiths and non-faiths alike are never as disrespectful/rude to catholics as a newly formed ex-catholic, with their wide-eyed new awakening.

The zeal of the recent convert.

Give them another 50 years to get used to it and they might chill out again.

Ps, poll makes no sense. "More" than what?

Maybe you could explain how an atheist Catholic is different from a Catholic. Generations of traditions don't mean those traditions weren't wrong or misguided. My a la carte until.very recently parents now say they regret going along with Catholic traditions for their family and never followed any way of the teachings anyway so the whole thing of tradition was utterly pointless. Maybe atheist Catholics see things differently though.

Roger Hassenforder

Are we regarding Ex-Catholics the same as non-Catholics? Doesnt the Catholic Church claim that there's no such thing as an Ex-Catholic?
However lay Ex-Catholics are probably more qualified to criticise than lay Non-Catholics, and are usually the more zealous in their criticism IMO

But no, it doesn't bother me "more",I don't give one.

TwoShedsJackson

It bothers me that people think that religious beliefs should be afforded special respect, or tiptoed around, just because they're religious beliefs.

It's no different from asserting something else that you are taking on faith, and getting upset or offended because someone else either thinks differently, or asks you to back up your claim.

El_Duderino 09

pwurple wrote: »

It's usually done by people who are from a Catholic background though, which brings a giant eye roll from me. Multi-generational people of other faiths and non-faiths alike are never as disrespectful/rude to catholics as a newly formed ex-catholic, with their wide-eyed new awakening.

The zeal of the recent convert.

Give them another 50 years to get used to it and they might chill out again.

To be fair I'm sure most recent atheists go through a period of elation when they realise they don't need to figure out how virgin birth or miracles work in relation to reality. I got to see it happen once when a friend asked what I thought happened to the red sea to part it if God wasn't involved. I said it was just all made up and there was no need for a long winded explanation. Same as how the 'devil's bit' formed without the devil or how there never were giants from Irish mythology. Oh... OH it never happened that makes sense.

It's like figuring out that the theory of gravity is nonsense and telling someone and they knew all along! Then they tell you you're not allowed to tell anyone because you'll look like a zealous recent convert. You'd be fit to burst!

It's fairly standard human behaviour I'd say

To Elland Back

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

84.2% of people identified as Catholic in the 2011 census.

Therefore 84.2% of Irish people would identify counting their Communion money as their most fulfilling religious experience to date

kylith

Believing that a cosmic Jewish zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magic tree.

What's to mock?