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The Gay Megathread (see mod note on post #2212)

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Comments

  • #4832
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    katydid wrote: »
    You keep saying that about your belief, and other people keep saying that that is irrelevant, since this referendum is not about changing what the mainstream churches believe, and bears no relation to their practice in relation to marriage in their churches.

    If you vote no in this referendum, on the basis of your religious beliefs, then you are actively discriminating against same sex couples, since you are trying to deny them a right in terms of something which has nothing to do with your religious belief

    The mainstream churches have made a public recommendation though, to their faithful to vote. To vote is a citizens right. Also a person could for example just fill in the ballot paper YES or NO for the fun of it - that's democracy.

    As regards the perceived discrimination, that's the way you see it, fair enough. I would have to balance that possible outcome against my religious conviction to vote plus my democratic right to vote.


  • #4833
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    If marriage is being redefined how will it change my future marriage to my girlfriend?

    The nexus 5 might be exclusive to three but it becoming available through Vodafone changes nothing about the phone and makes no difference to people who already bought the phone.


  • #4834
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    katydid wrote: »
    What's "fudge" about allowing people to use their conscience?

    That was always a Protestant thing, using one's conscience, and I always thought it to be very democratic, however it's also a kind of get out clause. 'This is what we recommend officially, but you're free etc. etc. etc.

    I prefer the stance of the Catholic, and Presbyterian Churhes, direct and no ambiguity.


  • #4835
    B_Wayne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭B_Wayne


    steamengine wrote: »
    I'm following the recommendation of the Catholic, Methodist and Presbyterian churches to vote NO. I agree with their traditional view of marriage for starters and their warning about the unknown quantity this whole thing is.



    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/presbyterian-church-urges-no-in-marriage-equality-referendum-1.2184132

    I can't be any more rational than explaining this way. We know that one of the first casualties of a NO vote, will be the perceived discrimination by the YES side, but what are the faithful meant to do. Abstain is an option too, but the churches in question haven't recommended that.

    I would like to hear the mainstream church leaders expand more on this subject and answer the points from the YES and NO sides. There used to be plenty of input from them on other subjects, no shortage of responses some time back when I was sticking up for the 'Angels' and Lorna Byrne.

    The Methodist Church is not calling for a no vote... They've literally said make up your own mind.......
    https://twitter.com/Bentonra/status/590820415569793025

    http://www.irishmethodist.org/sites/default/files/Statement%20in%20regard%20to%20the%20Referendum%20on%20Marriage%20Equality.pdf


  • #4836
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    B_Wayne wrote: »
    The Methodist Church is not calling for a no vote... They've literally said make up your own mind.......
    https://twitter.com/Bentonra/status/590820415569793025

    http://www.irishmethodist.org/sites/default/files/Statement%20in%20regard%20to%20the%20Referendum%20on%20Marriage%20Equality.pdf

    Somebody in the Methodist Church is according to this :-

    http://www.catholicireland.net/church-leaders-call-referendum/


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  • #4837
    hinault
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    steamengine wrote: »
    That was always a Protestant thing, using one's conscience, and I always thought it to be very democratic, however it's also a kind of get out clause. 'This is what we recommend officially, but you're free etc. etc. etc.

    I prefer the stance of the Catholic, Methodist and Presbyterian Churhes, direct and no ambiguity.

    There is only one Church.

    Methodists and Presbyterians are denominations both.


  • #4838
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,779 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    steamengine wrote: »
    I'm following the recommendation of the Catholic, Methodist and Presbyterian churches to vote NO. I agree with their traditional view of marriage for starters and their warning about the unknown quantity this whole thing is.



    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/presbyterian-church-urges-no-in-marriage-equality-referendum-1.2184132

    I can't be any more rational than explaining this way. We know that one of the first casualties of a NO vote, will be the perceived discrimination by the YES side, but what are the faithful meant to do. Abstain is an option too, but the churches in question haven't recommended that.

    I would like to hear the mainstream church leaders expand more on this subject and answer the points from the YES and NO sides. There used to be plenty of input from them on other subjects, no shortage of responses some time back when I was sticking up for the 'Angels' and Lorna Byrne.
    Or maybe you could try, you know, thinking for yourself...?

    MrP


  • #4839
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    hinault wrote: »
    There is only one Church.

    Methodists and Presbyterians are denominations both.

    Perhaps, but they are referred to individually as the Methodist Church etc.


  • #4840
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    hinault wrote: »
    There is only one Church.

    Methodists and Presbyterians are denominations both.

    As is Roman Catholic. The term "church" is used to describe each denomination in common parlance.


  • #4841
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    MrPudding wrote: »
    Or maybe you could try, you know, thinking for yourself...?

    MrP

    I did and came up with the same result as them. It varies from person to person. ;)


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  • #4842
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    tommy2bad wrote: »
    Really good letter in the Irish Catholic, fair play for printing it.
    http://www.irishcatholic.ie/article/everyone%E2%80%99s-vote-will-be-equally-valid

    Why wouldn't they?


  • #4843
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    steamengine wrote: »
    I'm following the recommendation of the Catholic, Methodist and Presbyterian churches to vote NO. I agree with their traditional view of marriage for starters and their warning about the unknown quantity this whole thing is.



    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/presbyterian-church-urges-no-in-marriage-equality-referendum-1.2184132

    I can't be any more rational than explaining this way. We know that one of the first casualties of a NO vote, will be the perceived discrimination by the YES side, but what are the faithful meant to do. Abstain is an option too, but the churches in question haven't recommended that.

    I would like to hear the mainstream church leaders expand more on this subject and answer the points from the YES and NO sides. There used to be plenty of input from them on other subjects, no shortage of responses some time back when I was sticking up for the 'Angels' and Lorna Byrne.
    Can you explain what relevance the Roman Catholic, Methodist or Presbyterian opinions have to do with civil marriage?

    It's not RATIONAL to vote on a secular issue on the basis of a religious opinion.


  • #4844
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    steamengine wrote: »
    The mainstream churches have made a public recommendation though, to their faithful to vote. To vote is a citizens right. Also a person could for example just fill in the ballot paper YES or NO for the fun of it - that's democracy.

    As regards the perceived discrimination, that's the way you see it, fair enough. I would have to balance that possible outcome against my religious conviction to vote plus my democratic right to vote.

    Not all the mainstream churches have. The Church of Ireland hasn't.

    In any case, what you're saying is that, despite the fact that the referendum has nothing to do with religious marriage, members of the denominations that are against it should just vote against it, like they are told?

    There's nothing perceived about the discrimination that exists against same sex couples. It exists. If you vote not to rectify it, you are voting to perpetuate the discrimination. Fine, if you have a good reason for doing so, but the only reasons you've offered is that your church tells you to vote no, and if you vote yes, issues will arise which, as has been pointed out to you, already exist with or without same sex marriage.

    You are free to vote the way your church tells you, but please don't pretend it's either rational or non-discriminatory.


  • #4845
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    steamengine wrote: »
    I did and came up with the same result as them. It varies from person to person. ;)

    So they think as you do - that issues totally unrelated to civil marriage are a reason to vote against the extension of civil marriage to people of the same sex.

    Right.


  • #4846
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    katydid wrote: »
    Can you explain what relevance the Roman Catholic, Methodist or Presbyterian opinions have to do with civil marriage?

    It's not RATIONAL to vote on a secular issue on the basis of a religious opinion.

    The said churches obviously feel they do have something to do with it, I've already said I personally can't be any more rational as regards my own belief.

    It's up to them to speak up also, as they are making the recommendation to vote NO.


  • #4847
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    katydid wrote: »
    So they think as you do - that issues totally unrelated to civil marriage are a reason to vote against the extension of civil marriage to people of the same sex.

    Right.

    Why don't you ask them, I've already explained myself.


  • #4848
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    katydid wrote: »
    Not all the mainstream churches have. The Church of Ireland hasn't.

    In any case, what you're saying is that, despite the fact that the referendum has nothing to do with religious marriage, members of the denominations that are against it should just vote against it, like they are told?

    There's nothing perceived about the discrimination that exists against same sex couples. It exists. If you vote not to rectify it, you are voting to perpetuate the discrimination. Fine, if you have a good reason for doing so, but the only reasons you've offered is that your church tells you to vote no, and if you vote yes, issues will arise which, as has been pointed out to you, already exist with or without same sex marriage.

    You are free to vote the way your church tells you, but please don't pretend it's either rational or non-discriminatory.

    I'm not pretending anything, they're my opinions - I won't be voting under duress from anything said in here, that's for sure. C of I are not in favour of SSM's, have you tackled them on it ?


  • #4849
    hinault
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    steamengine wrote: »
    I'm not pretending anything, they're my opinions - I won't be voting under duress from anything said in here, that's for sure. C of I are not in favour of SSM's, have you tackled them on it ?

    Maybe he/she thinks that you're the CoI spokesman?:D

    Have you something to confess, steamengine:)


  • #4850
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    Katydid, just to be clear about the attitude of the C of I.

    http://www.catholicireland.net/church-leaders-call-referendum/
    Three years ago, in May 2012 the General Synod of the Church of Ireland general synod held that: “marriage is . . . a union permanent . . . for better or worse, till death do them part, of one man with one woman, to the exclusion of all others on either side”.


  • #4851
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    hinault wrote: »
    Maybe he/she thinks that you're the CoI spokesman?:D

    Have you something to confess, steamengine:)

    Not so, I don't see any druids rushing in here, nor do I blame them. ;)


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  • #4852
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    steamengine wrote: »
    Not so, I don't see any druids rushing in here, nor do I blame them. ;)

    They are in favour. In fact they are even in the process of putting together a formal group so they can apply to become civil Solemnisers. I know this as I have been invited to join.


  • #4853
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    They are in favour. In fact they are even in the process of putting together a formal group so they can apply to become civil Solemnisers. I know this as I have been invited to join.

    Can you link please ?


  • #4854
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    steamengine wrote: »
    Can you link please ?

    This is their FB page https://www.facebook.com/PaganLifeRites?pnref=story


  • #4855
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    steamengine wrote: »
    The said churches obviously feel they do have something to do with it, I've already said I personally can't be any more rational as regards my own belief.

    It's up to them to speak up also, as they are making the recommendation to vote NO.

    So because they "feel they do have something to do with it", you just follow blindly, without thinking; in fact, not only not thinking, but ignoring what has been pointed out to you here? Jeez...


  • #4856
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    This is their FB page https://www.facebook.com/PaganLifeRites?pnref=story

    Thank you.


  • #4857
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    steamengine wrote: »
    Why don't you ask them, I've already explained myself.

    All you've "explained" is that you're going to do what your church asks you and that you're going to ignore all the logical facts you've been told here.


  • #4858
    B_Wayne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭B_Wayne


    steamengine wrote: »
    Somebody in the Methodist Church is according to this :-

    http://www.catholicireland.net/church-leaders-call-referendum/

    https://irishelectionliterature.wordpress.com/2015/04/08/same-sex-marriage-referendum-a-cross-denominational-response-leaflet-urging-a-no-vote/

    Rev Stephen Taylor, that's literally one Reverend that called for a no vote. The official document from Methodist Church that I linked to previously, negates it....


  • #4859
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    steamengine wrote: »
    I'm not pretending anything, they're my opinions - I won't be voting under duress from anything said in here, that's for sure. C of I are not in favour of SSM's, have you tackled them on it ?

    The CofI allows people to think for themselves. Its policy is that it's not in favour of it from a religious point of view, but it doesn't see fit to tell people how to vote on a civil matter. CofI policy on same sex marriage within the church isn't going to change in the immediate future, but may at some stage in the future, given there is a least one clergyman in a same sex civil partnership. There is a very strong North/South divide on the issue.


    Yes, you are pretending you are making the choice to vote no on based on a rational decision. That is untrue. There is nothing rational about voting for something secular on the basis of a religious opinion, when the religious element has nothing to do with the secular. Neither is there anything rational about voting against something on the basis of issues such as surrogacy, adoption and other family issues which have nothing to do with the proposed change. If you are voting because your church tells you so, just be honest and say so. Just stop pretending there's a rational basis to it.


  • #4860
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    katydid wrote: »
    So because they "feel they do have something to do with it", you just follow blindly, without thinking; in fact, not only not thinking, but ignoring what has been pointed out to you here? Jeez...

    Katydid, the various churches are full of very well educated priests and clergymen. Scientists, Theologians, Jesuits - do you think they are all fools ? sometimes following expert advice is extremely rational.


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  • #4861
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    B_Wayne wrote: »
    https://irishelectionliterature.wordpress.com/2015/04/08/same-sex-marriage-referendum-a-cross-denominational-response-leaflet-urging-a-no-vote/

    Rev Stephen Taylor, that's literally one Reverend that called for a no vote. The official document from Methodist Church that I linked to previously, negates it....
    Rev. Taylor will be wheeled out again and again by the likes of Steam Engine, just like he wheeled out the gay man who is against same sex marriage.


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