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Immersion Heater Wiring help

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  • 14-04-2015 8:06pm
    #1
    Vote 4 Pedro
    Registered Users Posts: 1,015 ✭✭✭


    Hi,
    Please can anyone tell me the Bath / Sink elements on this,

    Immersion%20Heater_zpsu9aczrm0.jpg

    This is not my cylinder but just a image pulled from the net but it has the same type of Immersion heater fitted.
    I know the line in is A.
    The earth is to the earth point.
    But which out of the B and C (Neutrals) are the Bath and Sink elements?
    Iv'e fitted a Horstmann E15 15-60 boost timer with only one output and I want to be sure I have it to the Bath circuit and not the sink.
    It would be great to wire it right first rather than just "hope it's right"

    Many thanks.


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    #2
    Diggerdunne
    Registered Users Posts: 431 ✭✭Diggerdunne


    Measure the resistance of each element... Bath I think shud be about 19ohms and sink about 24ohms...
    Either u could use a clamp on meter and the sink shud pull about 9 Amps and the bath about 12/13 amps


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    #3
    meercat
    Registered Users Posts: 4,742 ✭✭✭meercat


    The image you posted is
    Blue sink
    Black bath

    This is the old color code
    The newer elements have
    Black sink
    Brown bath
    Blue neutral

    It's impossible to tell over the net what yours is without pics.

    If you fitted the booster switch before your immersion switch then you would have the sink/bath option still.


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    #4
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,374 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    That looks like the old colour arrangement where brown (A) was neutral, blue (B) was sink and black (C) was bath.

    The new arrangement has neutral blue, sink is black and bath is brown.

    Edit: Meercat beat me to it, was going to quote his post from an earlier thread.


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    #5
    Vote 4 Pedro
    Registered Users Posts: 1,015 ✭✭✭Vote 4 Pedro


    meercat wrote: »
    The image you posted is
    Blue sink
    Black bath

    This is the old color code
    The newer elements have
    Black sink
    Brown bath
    Blue neutral

    It's impossible to tell over the net what yours is without pics.

    If you fitted the booster switch before your immersion switch then you would have the sink/bath option still.

    Thanks, I know the color codes are different but it was the best image I could find on the net, the layout for the elements are the same though,

    I have it so the booster switch is a replacement for the old immersion switch and it will be the only switch, the original immersion was wired with the earth to the earth point, the blue neutral to the stat and the live to the elements.
    It was like that since the house was built 11 years ago.


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    #6
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    meercat wrote: »
    The image you posted is
    Blue sink
    Black bath

    This is the old color code
    The newer elements have
    Black sink
    Brown bath
    Blue neutral

    It's impossible to tell over the net what yours is without pics.

    If you fitted the booster switch before your immersion switch then you would have the sink/bath option still.

    Sorry to question, but shouldn't blue should always be neutral?
    So I would say brown and black are the two live ones (but don't know which one is sink and bath), blue is neutral for both and green is ground.
    Even looking at the pic I cannot see blue as anything but ground.
    If you are talking of "old" red and black style wiring, this is not the case here, this is modern wiring with an extra black.


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    #7
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    Sorry to question, but shouldn't blue should always be neutral?
    So I would say brown and black are the two live ones (but don't know which one is sink and bath), blue is neutral for both and green is ground.
    Even looking at the pic I cannot see blue as anything but ground.
    If you are talking of "old" red and black style wiring, this is not the case here, this is modern wiring with an extra black.

    Brown is the neutral in that immersion setup. That was how the flex was connected to them years ago.

    Brown and black can not be the 2 lives in that picture, as the immersion will not work properly then.

    It can clearly be seen that the brown is into the stat and out of the stat to the common link to the ends of both elements.

    Blue was a phase colour in 3 phase wiring at one time as well, with black being neutral.


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    #8
    Vote 4 Pedro
    Registered Users Posts: 1,015 ✭✭✭Vote 4 Pedro


    So this is my own Immersion,
    It's 11 years old now and we are due to replace the boiler and cylinder before the end of the year with a new more efficient system but this has to last out the summer.

    It's now wired as follows through the The Horstmann E15 boost timer which is double poled.
    Brown = Live through the stat
    Blue = Neutral to the element - hopefully the bath element
    Yellow Green = Earth

    What I would like to know is that it's wired correctly and that it's safe to use as you can clearly see the supply side of the stat is a little burnt,
    it was previously wired live to the element and Neutral to the stat using the Bath/Sink switch,
    The old bath/sink switch I removed was a burnt on the screw terminals.

    Thanks.

    Immersion%201_zpschoiqt7k.jpg


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    #9
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    Bruthal wrote: »
    Brown is the neutral in that immersion setup. That was how the flex was connected to them years ago.

    Brown and black can not be the 2 lives in that picture, as the immersion will not work properly then.

    It can clearly be seen that the brown is into the stat and out of the stat to the common link to the ends of both elements.

    Blue was a phase colour in 3 phase wiring at one time as well, with black being neutral.

    I would be worried about that particular setup. I have had some small experience with 220 and 380 volt 1 and 3 phase wiring, namely wiring up electrical motors, switches and relais in order to have them run left and right with a stop in the middle so you couldn't go straight from left running to right running. I was told at the time that the base 220 volt wiring is brown (live), blue (neutral) and green (earth). This is still the case for 3 phase wiring, with 2 extra cables, marked L2 and L3.
    Never in my life have I heard of anyone using blue as live in a professional setting.
    So, my question is, is this some special exception that only applies to Irish immersions, or is that wiring just wrong and dangerous? I am genuinely asking, not being smart or anything.


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    #10
    meercat
    Registered Users Posts: 4,742 ✭✭✭meercat


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    I would be worried about that particular setup. I have had some small experience with 220 and 380 volt 1 and 3 phase wiring, namely wiring up electrical motors, switches and relais in order to have them run left and right with a stop in the middle so you couldn't go straight from left running to right running. I was told at the time that the base 220 volt wiring is brown (live), blue (neutral) and green (earth). This is still the case for 3 phase wiring, with 2 extra cables, marked L2 and L3.
    Never in my life have I heard of anyone using blue as live in a professional setting.
    So, my question is, is this some special exception that only applies to Irish immersions, or is that wiring just wrong and dangerous? I am genuinely asking, not being smart or anything.

    In the older installations as posted in original op the blue was used for sink switching. This was acceptable at the time. Existing regulations however require blue to be used as neutral.


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    #11
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    I would be worried about that particular setup. I have had some small experience with 220 and 380 volt 1 and 3 phase wiring, namely wiring up electrical motors, switches and relais in order to have them run left and right with a stop in the middle so you couldn't go straight from left running to right running. I was told at the time that the base 220 volt wiring is brown (live), blue (neutral) and green (earth). This is still the case for 3 phase wiring, with 2 extra cables, marked L2 and L3.
    Never in my life have I heard of anyone using blue as live in a professional setting.
    Like I said, blue was at one time a phase colour, red, yellow, blue were the phases. Black was neutral. That was the official L1 L2 L3 colours.

    And, I was in a large well known manufacturing facility several times, including this year, where those colours were used. The phase colours are red, yellow,blue. Neutral is black. Even new additions to it now are using them colours. The case there is that it is a long running facility, and when it was first built, the phase colours were the red yellow blue and black neutral, and to change them to the updated colours which changed twice since then, which were brown red yellow and blue neutral, and then (present) brown black grey and blue neutral, would have caused too much confusion and danger across a continuously changing and upgrading facility.

    I am not a fan of the brown black grey setup myself really. The black and grey are a bit dull as phase colours in my opinion. Black to me is as strange a phase colour as blue might seem to you as a phase colour. I thought the brown red yellow and blue neutral was better. But it is what it is.
    So, my question is, is this some special exception that only applies to Irish immersions, or is that wiring just wrong and dangerous? I am genuinely asking, not being smart or anything.
    Times are different now with immersion flexes. But if I was connecting an immersion, I still have a look at the flex connections, just as I did then.


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    #12
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    meercat wrote: »
    In the older installations as posted in original op the blue was used for sink switching. This was acceptable at the time. Existing regulations however require blue to be used as neutral.

    Good to know if I ever need to go at my own or other setups, saves me from fried wires and blown fuses. Mine is a newer setup (2000ish), so should be the more usual wiring.


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    #13
    meercat
    Registered Users Posts: 4,742 ✭✭✭meercat


    Vote 4 Pedro wrote: »
    So this is my own Immersion,
    It's 11 years old now and we are due to replace the boiler and cylinder before the end of the year with a new more efficient system but this has to last out the summer.

    It's now wired as follows through the The Horstmann E15 boost timer which is double poled.
    Brown = Live through the stat
    Blue = Neutral to the element - hopefully the bath element
    Yellow Green = Earth

    What I would like to know is that it's wired correctly and that it's safe to use as you can clearly see the supply side of the stat is a little burnt,
    it was previously wired live to the element and Neutral to the stat using the Bath/Sink switch,
    The old bath/sink switch I removed was a burnt on the screw terminals.

    Thanks.

    Immersion%201_zpschoiqt7k.jpg

    Get a replacement stat. There cheap enough. I would wire the neutral through the stat as with the current setup the element terminal that's unused will be live when you power up.

    The best advice I can give you however is to get an electrician in


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    #14
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    Good to know if I ever need to go at my own or other setups, saves me from fried wires and blown fuses. Mine is a newer setup (2000ish), so should be the more usual wiring.

    No matter what way you connect the 3 wires ( Blue, brown, black), nothing will be fried. The main risk is that with the neutral wire of the flex incorrectly connected into sink or bath, one element will work properly, but when the other is selected, both elements end up in series, so it would be very slow heating, and more importantly, the immersion stat would be bypassed in that selection.

    Draw out the diagram, and it can be seen easy enough.


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    #15
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    I had it drawn out before for a similar thread showing an incorrectly connected setup. This has what should be the neutral of flex (to stat) connected to the switch Bath terminal, Sink correctly connected, and bath of flex connected to the switch neutral.

    As it is, sink is selected and as can be seen, both elements are in series, with the stat bypassed.

    With bath selected, the bath element works properly, although it is connected in reverse polarity of intended connections, although that makes no difference to it working.
    2206643_orig.jpg


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    #16
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Might as well put up the correctly connected one too.
    6387536_orig.jpg


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    #17
    Vote 4 Pedro
    Registered Users Posts: 1,015 ✭✭✭Vote 4 Pedro


    Thanks for your help everyone, I have it working now.


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