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The Gay Megathread (see mod note on post #2212)

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Comments

  • #4532
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Nick Park wrote: »
    That is simply not true. I am not trying to deny any protections to anyone. I am simply engaging in a discussion on an internet forum, one devoted to the subject of Christianity, and I am suggesting a path of reasonable accommodation whereby no-one should get discriminated against and where people with sincere and deeply held beliefs can practise them in a context and setting where no-one gets hurt.

    The idea of niche marketing would appear to protect everybody. You have an extremely small number of Bed & Breakfasts that cater to a minority group (people who want to read the Bible together etc). If you would drop your hostility for a moment and reflect on this, you would see that it is extremely unlikely that any gay couple would ever want to stay at such a bed and breakfast (I'm heterosexual, and I wouldn't want to stay in such a setting!). And if a gay couple, knowing that it is clearly advertised as belonging to a niche market, try to book in for the express purpose of kicking up a storm, then they should be treated exactly the same as I would if I tried to BBQ steaks in the back garden of a vegetarian hotel, or hand out bacon sandwiches in a bed and breakfast that caters for a niche market of orthodox Jews.

    It seems like the minority of extremists on either side want to keep turning these issues into battles, but I think there is a majority of people - an excluded middle - who would be much happier to seek paths of reasonable accommodation by which we have a diversity of opinions and treat one another with civility and respect.

    No ,you are just looking for a loophole to allow people to make it up as they go along . That has never worked before so why expect it to do so now ? Best just to rely on the law and if we don't like it we can get to vote on it and go to court over it if we choose .

    Your ''path of reasonable accommodation '' for instance ,what does that even mean ? Do you think your path would be the same as a Muslim path ? Or an atheist path ? Or a far right path ?

    And remember all these people see themselves as the reasonable crowd.

    You see people aren't reasonable . If they were we wouldn't need most of our laws . Best to rely on the law I think .


  • #4533
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    steamengine wrote: »
    I don't know anything about it. I'm listening to Paddy Manning though and he's making a lot of sense.

    You're free to fill in the gaps in my knowledge though, somehow I feel point scoring is the object of the exercise, but you're free to rid me of that notion too.

    So what exactly is he saying that makes sense? Can you elaborate?


  • #4534
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    shruikan2553 wrote: »
    If it is in here http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/General%20Scheme%20of%20a%20Children%20and%20Family%20Relationships%20Bill.pdf/Files/General%20Scheme%20of%20a%20Children%20and%20Family%20Relationships%20Bill.pdf

    then the result of the referendum has no affect on it. As it is called the children and family relationships bill you can probably guess it involves lots of things involved with children and families, including civil partnerships being allowed to adopt.

    The referendum is about allowing 2 people of any gender to get married. There are couples of both sexuality raising children now and their will be couples of both sexuality raising children in the future be the result yes or no.

    Ok thank you, I'll read it before commenting.


  • #4535
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    steamengine wrote: »
    Paddy has walked the walk, that's why I listen to him, in fact I found the video most impressive, in particular his concern for the children of SSM and the perceived mess that will be walked into by voting YES. Frankly, I had not considered that angle.

    We both more or less have the same points of view, but I was interested to hear it from a gay point of view. The gay views to date have been 'If you vote NO, your discriminating against us', which i don't accept.

    Paddy is advocating a NO vote, so not all gays are singing from the the same hymn sheet, which appears to be a standard issue repetitively banging home the same message.

    What walk has he walked that makes him believe that he should impose his views on other peopel?

    Tell me, what SPECIFICALLY is the difference between children in a home where parents of the same sex are married and a home where parents of the same sex are not married?

    Not all gays sing from the same hymn sheet. Neither do all Christians. I'm a Christian, and I don't believe in imposing the Christian view of marriage on a secular institution. I don't see what big deal one gay man who is against the idea of equality for gay people is.


  • #4536
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    katydid wrote: »
    So what exactly is he saying that makes sense? Can you elaborate?

    Briefly, that children of SSMs are being short changed - surrogacy and associated exploitation of women - biological parents being cut out of the picture - children not feeling a part of anything etc etc.

    Why don't you look at it for yourself, it's only 25 minutes long ?

    What makes sense to me might not to you though.


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  • #4537
    galljga1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,938 ✭✭✭galljga1


    steamengine wrote: »
    Briefly, that children of SSMs are being short changed - surrogacy and associated exploitation of women - biological parents being cut out of the picture - children not feeling a part of anything etc etc.

    Why don't you look at it for yourself, it's only 25 minutes long ?

    What makes sense to me might not to you though.

    Please explain how allowing same sex marriage is going to negatively impact any of the above.


  • #4538
    Benny_Cake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,205 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    Nick Park wrote: »
    Not all gays sing from the same hymn sheet, nor do all Christians. And the frustrating thing is that the debate is being dominated by those with extreme views who have turned it into a Punch and Judy Show.

    Evangelical Alliance Ireland has recently published a book, entitled "Who Owns Marriage?",where people of various opinions discuss issues of religion, homosexuality, civil marriage and religious marriage. A couple of the contributors were fairly partisan, but most were able to engage in a civil discussion where they listened to each other and expressed a surprising diversity of views. I contributed to it (and edited it) and other contributors included theologians, Christian leaders, LGBT activists (including my own daughter, and also Brian Finnegan, editor of Gay Community News) David Quinn of the Iona Institute, and Michael Nugent of Atheist Ireland.

    Wouldn't mind having a look at that Nick - is there a copy available online?


  • #4539
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    katydid wrote: »
    What walk has he walked that makes him believe that he should impose his views on other peopel?

    Tell me, what SPECIFICALLY is the difference between children in a home where parents of the same sex are married and a home where parents of the same sex are not married?

    Not all gays sing from the same hymn sheet. Neither do all Christians. I'm a Christian, and I don't believe in imposing the Christian view of marriage on a secular institution. I don't see what big deal one gay man who is against the idea of equality for gay people is.

    He's not imposing anything, he's on one side of a debate. The referendum is the vote, the people will impose.

    Probably none, but overall it's less than the ideal of the traditional married arrangement - you know a father, mother !

    Fair enough - that's your opinion.

    Do you tolerate different opinions to your own ? I'm curious.


  • #4540
    galljga1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,938 ✭✭✭galljga1


    Freshpopcorn started a thread about his brother coming out and the family being fine with it.
    ScumLord posted the following:
    "Now that the son has come out the father might have an incentive to vote no, so he won't have to go to another feckin wedding".

    This is the only valid reason I have come across for voting no.


  • #4541
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    Also some reading for people who think a same sex couple cant raise a child as well as a heterosexual couple.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_parenting
    Its wikipedia but the sources can be viewed if you want more detail on a claim in it.

    Also worth noting that the methods used by same sex couples are the same ones that have been available to opposite sex couples. Any arguments about children being taken away from biological parents etc also apply to both types of couples and is an argument against that method, not of the couple themselves.


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  • #4542
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    galljga1 wrote: »
    Please explain how allowing same sex marriage is going to negatively impact any of the above.

    If you don't mind please watch the video, Paddy is much more articulate and better versed than me, and besides multi reply fatigue is setting in. :)


  • #4543
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    shruikan2553 wrote: »
    Also some reading for people who think a same sex couple cant raise a child as well as a heterosexual couple.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_parenting
    Its wikipedia but the sources can be viewed if you want more detail on a claim in it.

    Also worth noting that the methods used by same sex couples are the same ones that have been available to opposite sex couples. Any arguments about children being taken away from biological parents etc also apply to both types of couples and is an argument against that method, not of the couple themselves.

    Would you not think though, that the ideal situation is the traditional father and mother scenario and their own child ?


  • #4544
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    steamengine wrote: »
    Would you not think though, that the ideal situation is the traditional father and mother scenario and their own child ?

    That depends on the mother and father I would think ?


  • #4545
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    steamengine wrote: »
    Would you not think though, that the ideal situation is the traditional father and mother scenario and their own child ?

    Define ideal. Raises the child to be healthy and happy? Raises the child to be perfect? I would be very surprised if there was such thing as the parent who does everything perfectly.

    The research shows a same sex couple can raise a child just as well as an opposite sex couple. If a mother and father is ideal then father and father or mother and mother are just as ideal. The characteristics of the parents is more important than the gender or sexuality as the research also shows.


  • #4546
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    shruikan2553 wrote: »
    Define ideal. Raises the child to be healthy and happy? Raises the child to be perfect? I would be very surprised if there was such thing as the parent who does everything perfectly.

    The research shows a same sex couple can raise a child just as well as an opposite sex couple. If a mother and father is ideal then father and father or mother and mother are just as ideal. The characteristics of the parents is more important than the gender or sexuality as the research also shows.

    Each to his own, it's just that quite a lot of people would consider the traditional arrangement the ideal for all sorts of reason. Hence, apart from religious convictions, why one would vote NO in the referendum.


  • #4547
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    steamengine wrote: »
    Each to his own, it's just that quite a lot of people would consider the traditional arrangement the ideal for all sorts of reason, but each to his own. Hence, apart from religious convictions, why one would vote NO in the referendum.

    What is ideal? It is a word you have used a few times, surely you must be able to explain what you mean by it if you are using it to describe parents. How do you know same sex couples arent ideal?

    As I explained before, all the children stuff is in the children and family relationships bill. Anyone voting no because of children are being mislead or purposely lying, might as well vote no in reducing the age a person can run for president.


  • #4548
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    marienbad wrote: »
    That depends on the mother and father I would think ?

    Yes it would admittedly, but all things being equal ????


  • #4549
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    shruikan2553 wrote: »
    What is ideal? It is a word you have used a few times, surely you must be able to explain what you mean by it if you are using it to describe parents. How do you know same sex couples arent ideal?

    As I explained before, all the children stuff is in the children and family relationships bill. Anyone voting no because of children are being mislead or purposely lying, might as well vote no in reducing the age a person can run for president.

    Two couples both of impeccable character, one a same sex couple and the other a traditional mixed sex couple. The first has to adopt you obviously, the second can conceive you. Which couple would you pick as your parents ?

    A straight answer please, if you can ?


  • #4550
    galljga1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,938 ✭✭✭galljga1


    steamengine wrote: »
    Each to his own, it's just that quite a lot of people would consider the traditional arrangement the ideal for all sorts of reason. Hence, apart from religious convictions, why one would vote NO in the referendum.

    I think a lot of people are missing the point or getting confused by unconnected arguments.
    This is simply a vote to allow two people to marry regardless of sex.
    Regardless of whether it passes or not, heterosexual marriage will remain exactly as it is now.
    If it does not pass, gay relationships, civil partnerships, surrogacy, gay adoptions will carry on as now.
    If it does pass, marriage will afford children whose parents are same sex greater protections and will allow the family within a same sex marriage greater protections with regard to inheritance, family home etc.

    Regardless whether or not a same sex relationship is regarded as being the ideal relationship in which to raise children, a yes or no vote is not going to change the fact that children will continue to be raised by persons within same sex relationships.


  • #4551
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    steamengine wrote: »
    Yes it would admittedly, but all things being equal ????

    In a perfect world the birth mother and father. But if it was an ideal world we would not need adoption .


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  • #4552
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    steamengine wrote: »
    Two couples both of impeccable character, one a same sex couple and the other a traditional mixed sex couple. The first has to adopt you obviously, the second can conceive you. Which couple would you pick as your parents ?

    A straight answer please, if you can ?

    You ask me a question while ignoring mine. Am I to answer all the questions myself?

    I considered waiting until you answer my questions first but then it would make me look as bad as you. At least by my answering others can learn rather than keeping secrets to myself.

    First of all, there is no guarantee that the opposite sex couple can actually conceive, unless you wish to explain to me why myself and my girlfriend would be inferior parents due to fertility issues?

    I wouldnt care as long as I had parents who took care of me and loved me. As the research shows either are just as capable.

    Is there a problem with the studies in the article I linked earlier?


  • #4553
    galljga1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,938 ✭✭✭galljga1


    steamengine wrote: »
    Two couples both of impeccable character, one a same sex couple and the other a traditional mixed sex couple. The first has to adopt you obviously, the second can conceive you. Which couple would you pick as your parents ?

    A straight answer please, if you can ?

    I am from a mixed sex couple and as it is what I am used to, it is my preference. But has this got anything to do with the referendum?


  • #4554
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    shruikan2553 wrote: »
    You ask me a question while ignoring mine. Am I to answer all the questions myself?

    I considered waiting until you answer my questions first but then it would make me look as bad as you. At least by my answering others can learn rather than keeping secrets to myself.

    First of all, there is no guarantee that the opposite sex couple can actually conceive, unless you wish to explain to me why myself and my girlfriend would be inferior parents due to fertility issues?

    I wouldnt care as long as I had parents who took care of me and loved me. As the research shows either are just as capable.

    Is there a problem with the studies in the article I linked earlier?

    It was a simple question, thanks and let's leave it there for tonight :)


  • #4555
    3wayswitch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 310 ✭✭3wayswitch


    steamengine wrote: »
    Two couples both of impeccable character, one a same sex couple and the other a traditional mixed sex couple. The first has to adopt you obviously, the second can conceive you. Which couple would you pick as your parents ?

    A straight answer please, if you can ?

    Isn't that an argument against adoption in general?


  • #4556
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    galljga1 wrote: »
    I am from a mixed sex couple and as it is what I am used to, it is my preference. But has this got anything to do with the referendum?

    In the video it's part of the reason why Paddy Manning is requesting a NO vote in the referendum and I was curious whether any the YES voters opinions here concurred with his.


  • #4557
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    3wayswitch wrote: »
    Isn't that an argument against adoption in general?

    No, It was for the purpose intended.


  • #4558
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    steamengine wrote: »
    No, It was for the purpose intended.

    How so ?


  • #4559
    galljga1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,938 ✭✭✭galljga1


    steamengine wrote: »
    In the video it's part of the reason why Paddy Manning is requesting a NO vote in the referendum and I was curious whether any the YES voters opinions here concurred with his.

    I think Paddy is conflating the marriage referendum with the children and family relationships bill.


  • #4560
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    steamengine wrote: »
    It was a simple question, thanks and let's leave it there for tonight :)

    See you tomorrow then. Looking forward to learning what ideal is and why myself and my girlfriend will become inferior parents if we have problems conceiving. Maybe someone else might be kind enough to explain before then.


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  • #4561
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    marienbad wrote: »
    How so ?
    I was trying to find out what YES posters thought of traditional parentage versus same sex parentage.

    As I said previously I found Paddy Mannings video very thought provoking and I would seriously like to see all the YES posters here to watch the video, regardless of how they intend to vote.

    In particular I find commercial surrogacy he mentioned to be particularly repulsive.


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