How will you vote in the Marriage Equality referendum? Mod Note Post 1

One eyed Jack · 20-04-2015 12:52AM

hotmail.com wrote: »

You're adding to the negativity by writing about the minority of people on the Yes side that make the odd mean remark. You are helping the No side.

I think I've done quite the opposite actually, and a lot more people are starting to realise that this referendum has nothing to do with religion, and there's been a marked reduction in the attacks on religion in just the last week alone, because people realise that by attacking religion, they are alienating a large demographic of their core supporters who have nothing but the utmost contempt for the no side, but were still coming under attack from yea campaigners.

I think it's only now sinking in with yes campaigners the damage they were doing to their own campaign in terms of both their complacency and their being distracted from the actual issue of civil marriage equality, which has nothing and never had anything to do with religion.

steamengine · 20-04-2015 12:57AM

marienbad wrote: »

So what are your reasons for voting no then ?

Popover to the Christianity forum on the Dublin Archbishop thread which is now locked, read my posts.

I'm out of here - I've never experienced such closed mind on boards.

hotmail.com · 20-04-2015 12:58AM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I think I've done quite the opposite actually, and a lot more people are starting to realise that this referendum has nothing to do with religion, and there's been a marked reduction in the attacks on religion in just the last week alone, because people realise that by attacking religion, they are alienating a large demographic of their core supporters who have nothing but the utmost contempt for the no side, but were still coming under attack from yea campaigners.

I think it's only now sinking in with yes campaigners the damage they were doing to their own campaign in terms of both their complacency and their being distracted from the actual issue of civil marriage equality, which has nothing and never had anything to do with religion.

You are coming across as a supporter of the No side by attacking the Yes side.

pl4ichjgy17zwd · 20-04-2015 12:58AM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I understand the context in which you asked, but though they aren't good enough answers for you personally

Homophobia, a preference in art or not liking PDAs are not a sound reasoning to deny equal marriage rights in any kind of logic or reasoned debate. Not just for me personally. I didn't quite understand the context of your last one (whose personal life?) I also don't believe anyone who was going to vote no for one of those reasons ever had any chance of having their mind changed, however, pointing out why those arguments are flawed might help other undecideds reading.

and though you suggest that any other answer is kind of moot, it's like I said to hotmail earlier - people are fickle like that, and while I find their flip-flop attitude frustrating, the fact is a simple thing like that can mean the difference between a person voting yes or no. I don't like it, and I know you don't like it, but that is the reality unfortunately.

Sorry, I'm not picking you up again. How is it bad to ask a poster to clarify what they meant? Any answer other than the OP's is moot, since it's their argument and we could pontificate for hours on the possibilities - ultimately it's irrelevant until we know the actual argument we're breaking down. How does that change someone's opinion?

Bannasidhe · 20-04-2015 12:59AM

steamengine wrote: »

Popover to the Christianity forum on the Dublin Archbishop thread which is now locked, read my posts.

I'm out of here - I've never experienced such closed mind on boards.

My irony meter just exploded.

garra · 20-04-2015 01:01AM

steamengine wrote: »

Popover to the Christianity forum on the Dublin Archbishop thread which is now locked, read my posts.

I'm out of here - I've never experienced such closed mind on boards.

Where are you headed, away with the Fairies?

Zubeneschamali · 20-04-2015 01:06AM

haveringchick wrote: »

So B and C then Zubh ?

B. Make me look like an idiot or
C. Make the poster feel all smug and superior?

Well, no. I don't feel smug at all. If I thought we'd get 100% Yes, I would be smug, but no.

I am saddened by the fact that we have a rump of voters like yourself who will not vote for equal rights. I am unhappy that we even have to have a vote.

We (in Ireland) never took a vote where we asked the mens permission to give women the vote, and that is obviously and clearly correct now. We won independence, and the new state granted women voting rights because it was the right thing to do, without asking anyone's permission.

I would prefer that the Government simply legalise same sex marriage, and let the Supreme Court strike it down if they dared. Then we could have a referendum, and we would know the enemy better.

Kiwi in IE · 20-04-2015 01:06AM

steamengine wrote: »

Popover to the Christianity forum on the Dublin Archbishop thread which is now locked, read my posts.

I'm out of here - I've never experienced such closed mind on boards.

What exactly are people being closed minded about? You came in here and immediately said that because posters on the yes side of the debate made comments that you didn't like, you are now going to vote against equality for LGBT people. What would be an open minded response to that in your opinion?

LoganRice · 20-04-2015 01:07AM

The thing I'm regularly finding with NO voters, especially those who post their ideologies onto messenging boards like this one, is that they:
1. Make a statement
2. Receive a response
and then--
3. Don't respond to that response

Instead, they bring up something else, typically irrelevant to what the entire situation is about.

Observe:

1. NO voter: "I think marriage equality is wrong because the Bible/Qur'an says so"

2. YES voter: "Not everyone interprets the Bible/Qur'an this way, or even believes the philosophical or religious principles provided in each respective belief system."

3. NO side: "Think of the children!"

And so they run around in circles in search of as many loopholes they can find in order to give justification to their beliefs, or "beliefs". They will never actually answer you and forward the proposition given by the YES side, they'll neglect, ignore and forget about it. Moreover, they have absolutely no intention of voting otherwise anyway; you dare not be gay in their family,if you are gay you will always be looked down upon and that is that, that's their way in life and we can't do anything, they can only change themselves.

After time, when as many logical YES arguments have been made, for instance, marriage is a social construct rather than one inherently and intrinsically linked with natural order and therefore man and woman, or that marriage can be open to other committed groupings in society besides man and woman, they'll start spouting irrelevant narratives and concepts making little to no sense because the frustration they are currently experiencing will have already begun to encapsulate them and therefore hinder their presentation in making any additional points.

And so psychology will come in, they'll say and bring themselves to believe "I'm going to vote NO anyway because that guy is an asshole (oops, I just swore, that's 10 punishment Hail Marys for me)", and so neither the YES voter will have gotten anywhere and the NO voter will have only perpetuated the stereotypical belief that socially conservative minded people are preventing civil rights from progressing and thus depleting many of basic human rights everyone should have from birth.

Bridge93 · 20-04-2015 01:07AM

A little part of me knew for some reason I wasn't going to be shown those quotes I asked for. Oh well, no harm in trying to get at least a shred of evidence.

One eyed Jack · 20-04-2015 01:13AM

hotmail.com wrote: »

You are coming across as a supporter of the No side by attacking the Yes side.

The no side can spread all the lies they like, they can talk shìt till it comes out their ears, they can make threats and they can play the victim and they can basically piss around and troll social media and do whatever the hell they like as far as I'm concerned. They're doing a fantastic job of turning people off them and strengthening people's resolve to support the yes campaign. Brilliant. I don't give a damn what they do.

I do give a damn however when the yes side let themselves down by falling for the bait each time. Imagine you're at a football match and the other team start fouling your team all over the place. What are you going to do - start fouling them back, or maintain your dignity and don't stoop to their level?

I'd rather not see any marriage equality advocates stoop to the same level as a handful of people who are playing with people's lives for their own political gain.

marienbad · 20-04-2015 01:20AM

steamengine wrote: »

Popover to the Christianity forum on the Dublin Archbishop thread which is now locked, read my posts.

I'm out of here - I've never experienced such closed mind on boards.

You mean the thread where you unequivocally posted that for you marriage is only between a man and a women ?

So no persuading you was there ?

Zaph · 20-04-2015 01:22AM

haveringchick wrote: »

Sure no bother. Well for example I was very persuaded by a man I met who painted a very believable picture of yh links between the LGBT movement and Communism which in fairness would explain yhe propensity of yes voters to decry organized religions.Well on boards anyway.

Sorry? What? Communism? Was the guy you were talking to called Joseph McCarthy by any chance? That's the first time I've heard Communism used as an argument in the whole debate, and let's face it it's hardly a political force in Ireland now, is it? There are many people of various political persuasions who have no time for organised religion, but I'd imagine the number who would consider themselves communists would be minuscule.

haveringchick wrote: »

Im a bit dodgy about messing with the constitution too. I mean whats next?

You do realise that we've been "messing about" with the constitution for years, don't you? Since the foundation of the state there have been 33 amendments made to it, with a bunch more proposed but failing to gain a yes vote in the referendum. You can find the complete list here.

Zubeneschamali · 20-04-2015 01:35AM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I'd rather not see any marriage equality advocates stoop to the same level as a handful of people who are playing with people's lives for their own political gain.

We had "Are blacks human?" and "Are women human?", and now it's "Are gays human?"

Somehow the person who wants argue that no, they are not human and don't deserve equal human rights, he gets equal time, and total respect, and toujours la politesse?

Not from me.

I regard No voters in exactly the same light as someone who says blacks shouldn't marry whites because of racial purity.

One eyed Jack · 20-04-2015 01:41AM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

We had "Are blacks human?" and "Are women human?", and now it's "Are gays human?"

Somehow the person who wants argue that no, they are not human and don't deserve equal human rights, he gets equal time, and total respect, and toujours la politesse?

Not from me.

I regard No voters in exactly the same light as someone who says blacks shouldn't marry whites because of racial purity.

Do you think someone who is voting no actually honestly gives a shìt what you think of them though?

They don't, and all you'll have done is just lowered yourself to their level. That's really my point.

Zubeneschamali · 20-04-2015 02:29AM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Do you think someone who is voting no actually honestly gives a shìt what you think of them though?

They don't, and all you'll have done is just lowered yourself to their level. That's really my point.

You admit that we are dealing with barbarians who do not give a ****. We only disagree about the tactics needed to beat them.

And no, I cannot possibly lower myself to that level just by being rude on the internet. Denying your fellow citizens their human rights is on a completely different moral plane from telling the simple truth on boards.ie, which is a duty.

A minor duty, but a duty you share.

One eyed Jack · 20-04-2015 02:48AM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

You admit that we are dealing with barbarians who do not give a ****. We only disagree about the tactics needed to beat them.

And no, I cannot possibly lower myself to that level just by being rude on the internet. Denying your fellow citizens their human rights is on a completely different moral plane from telling the simple truth on boards.ie, which is a duty.

A minor duty, but a duty you share.

Jesus will you stop twisting my words, please. I never said anyone is a barbarian. I simply find their attitude contemptible, but no, I'm not going waste my time demonising anyone for anything. I don't feel any need to beat them, I don't think of myself as superior to other human beings, no matter how much I may find their attitudes repulsive.

I also think you're missing the bigger picture which is bigger than Boards or any social media site. We're talking about a referendum that affects future generations in society, but I don't think I'm going to be able to convince you that your attitude is no different than the attitude you despise. One is as intolerant as the other, simply depends upon your perspective, and if you were able to be objective you'd see that.

I don't share any duty to behave in any way which belittles other people, no matter how utterly repulsive I find them and their behaviour. I don't have to like them, but I don't have to hate them either. I find that complete indifference works best.

Zubeneschamali · 20-04-2015 03:02AM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I don't think I'm going to be able to convince you that your attitude is no different than the attitude you despise. One is as intolerant as the other

I am intolerant of people who say things like:

"My daughter will never marry a black!"
"My daughter will never marry a traveler!"
"My daughter will never marry a woman!"

If civilization is good for anything, it is good for putting a boot on these people's heads and telling them they do not get to say sh!t like that in our country.

Over there is the enemy. They will vote No. I will vote Yes, I am not your enemy.

haveringchick · 20-04-2015 07:05AM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I am intolerant of people who say things like:

"My daughter will never marry a black!"
"My daughter will never marry a traveler!"
"My daughter will never marry a woman!"

If civilization is good for anything, it is good for putting a boot on these people's heads and telling them they do not get to say sh!t like that in our country.

Over there is the enemy. They will vote No. I will vote Yes, I am not your enemy.

This post encapsulates the general attitude of the yes proponents as represented on boards.ie and will be shared around by myself. I think thats allowed in the charter , is it not?

Ave Sodalis · 20-04-2015 07:30AM

haveringchick wrote: »

This post encapsulates the general attitude of the yes proponents as represented on boards.ie and will be shared around by myself. I think thats allowed in the charter , is it not?

Am I getting this straight; you're taking one post from one poster and stating that it's the viewpoint of absolutely every Yes voter on Boards? If you don't mind, I prefer you use my own posts to represent me than someone else's.

haveringchick · 20-04-2015 07:53AM

sup_dude wrote: »

Am I getting this straight; you're taking one post from one poster and stating that it's the viewpoint of absolutely every Yes voter on Boards? If you don't mind, I prefer you use my own posts to represent me than someone else's.[/quote

Well I could pick any of literally dozens of posts across at least 3 threads which for me typifies the yes campaign on boards.
But Zubs metaphoric suggestion that he is entitled to put his boot to the head of anyone
Who holds an opinion different to his takes the gold medal really.
Here's a shocking truth.
People can think what they want feel however they want and vote however they please , or not vote if they please. That goes for GE LE referendums X Factor whatever.
They may have 1 million different reasons for their desicion and everyone of those reasons is valid. For them. Thank God.

Jon Stark · 20-04-2015 07:53AM

I'll be voting yes but from my observations and talking to people day to day, there seems to be either quite a bit of indifference (not voting) or people voting no. It's surprisingly prevalent among the 25 - 40 year old male demographic.

People can vote how they want but it just goes to show how potentially skewed online polls can be.

tigger123 · 20-04-2015 08:35AM

I think if you want to see this passed there's a number of things you can do to help:

- talk to your friends who may not be registered or are slightly apathetic about the whole thing. Encourage them to register, remind them of the May 5th deadline.
- talk to the older generations in your family in a non confrontational way. Ask them how they feel about it and listen to their concerns. Maybe you can tease out the arguments with them. Talk about the public figures like Mary MacAleese, Pat Carey, Leo Varadkar and Dublin Manager Jim Gavin (who supported the gay referee who wanted to wear the rainbow wrist band). IMO these people have can be very very influential in bringing some of the older generations to the Yes side.

One eyed Jack · 20-04-2015 09:23AM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I am intolerant of people who say things like:

"My daughter will never marry a black!"
"My daughter will never marry a traveler!"
"My daughter will never marry a woman!"

If civilization is good for anything, it is good for putting a boot on these people's heads and telling them they do not get to say sh!t like that in our country.

Really?

(that was taken recently btw, about five minutes before I made a complaint to the local council to have it removed)

Over there is the enemy. They will vote No. I will vote Yes, I am not your enemy.

Over there isn't any enemy, they are people, and they are your neighbours, your friends and your family -

http://theoutmost.com/news/two-women-beaten-homophobic-attack-limerick/

Those two young girls (17 and 20) were beaten up by a group of young men while walking down the main street in Limerick. You think it's a crowd of old bigots that you only need wait till they die off?

I teach a class of senior citizens computers, guess how they're all voting? Y'know why? Because they've lived with the stigma and the shame of society a hell of a lot longer than young people nowadays who simply cannot relate to having lived with secrets that length of time and the hurt it causes.

It's not who you think you have to worry about that you actually have to worry about, but you'd know that if you were able to step outside yourself and see the world from someone else's perspective.

clever user name · 20-04-2015 09:55AM

My 90 year old Catholic grandma is voting yes! She goes to church most days and is the kind of person who would be less than happy if I ate meat on good Friday. When I asked her why she gave me a very simple answer... 'it's 2015'.

I personally cannot fathom why anyone would vote no!!

Ave Sodalis · 20-04-2015 10:01AM

haveringchick wrote: »

Well I could pick any of literally dozens of posts across at least 3 threads which for me typifies the yes campaign on boards.
But Zubs metaphoric suggestion that he is entitled to put his boot to the head of anyone
Who holds an opinion different to his takes the gold medal really.
Here's a shocking truth.
People can think what they want feel however they want and vote however they please , or not vote if they please. That goes for GE LE referendums X Factor whatever.
They may have 1 million different reasons for their desicion and everyone of those reasons is valid. For them. Thank God.

Then you will excuse me when I say I've already lost respect for your posts and that I find it ridiculous (and somewhat humerous) that you're giving out about how Yes voters post and then do something like that.

clever user name wrote: »

My 90 year old Catholic grandma is voting yes! She goes to church most days and is the kind of person who would be less than happy if I ate meat on good Friday. When I asked her why she gave me a very simple answer... 'it's 2015'.

I personally cannot fathom why anyone would vote no!!

Apparently, a few Yes campaigners on a random internet site who got annoyed with the mostly insulting No campaign so fought back... is a perfectly valid reason for voting No. Of course, completely ignoring the aforementioned insulting No campaign. Odd how thus far, it has only been those who are on the No side have been banned and yet the No side claim it's the Yes side who are the worst. It's also odd how people claim to have the Yes side shoved down their throats when they bring themselves to a thread specifically on that topic with a poll that clearly shows what the majority of people are voting. Furthermore, it's odd how people expect to be allowed to not discuss their position on a topic, in a discussion forum.

One eyed Jack · 20-04-2015 10:20AM

clever user name wrote: »

My 90 year old Catholic grandma is voting yes! She goes to church most days and is the kind of person who would be less than happy if I ate meat on good Friday. When I asked her why she gave me a very simple answer... 'it's 2015'.

I personally cannot fathom why anyone would vote no!!

It's hardly rocket science though, is it? They simply don't have any time for people who don't jig with their world view, and the more they go against that person's prejudices, the more that person is going to do their utmost to keep them invisible if not eliminate them entirely.

Seriously, people can't be that naive surely? If you're not even aware of how some people are so utterly judgemental of people who don't meet their standards, then you've either been incredibly lucky, or you just haven't met enough people yet, or you have met people, and there's just a group think among you like the outside world doesn't exist.

Bannasidhe · 20-04-2015 10:32AM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It's hardly rocket science though, is it? They simply don't have any time for people who don't jig with their world view, and the more they go against that person's prejudices, the more that person is going to do their utmost to keep them invisible if not eliminate them entirely.

Seriously, people can't be that naive surely? If you're not even aware of how some people are so utterly judgemental of people who don't meet their standards, then you've either been incredibly lucky, or you just haven't met enough people yet, or you have met people, and there's just a group think among you like the outside world doesn't exist.

That response is a bit harsh Jack.

I, personally, also cannot understand why anyone would believe another person is lesser because their skin is a different colour, or they were born in a different country, or they speak a different language...

I, personally, cannot understand why some human beings will torture animals and call this 'sport'...

I, personally, cannot understand how a nation of emigrants can be so abusive towards immigrants...

I can't get my head around why anyone would hate anyone else for being different. I really can't. It just does not compute with me.

That is not to say I don't know it exists.
That is not to say I haven't seen and experienced the effects.
That is not to say I deny these things happen or live in some blinkered world.

It simply means I do not understand why hate fills some hearts.

One eyed Jack · 20-04-2015 10:51AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

That response is a bit harsh Jack.

I, personally, also cannot understand why anyone would believe another person is lesser because their skin is a different colour, or they were born in a different country, or they speak a different language...

I, personally, cannot understand why some human beings will torture animals and call this 'sport'...

I, personally, cannot understand how a nation of emigrants can be so abusive towards immigrants...

I can't get my head around why anyone would hate anyone else for being different. I really can't. It just does not compute with me.

That is not to say I don't know it exists.
That is not to say I haven't seen and experienced the effects.
That is not to say I deny these things happen or live in some blinkered world.

It simply means I do not understand why hate fills some hearts.

You're right Bannasidhe and I read back on it and it wasn't meant to come across as being harsh, but surely people here must understand insecurity, or passing judgment on someone else who for whatever trait or reason that person or their lifestyle doesn't meet their standards?

Hate fills people's hearts because they feel a need to humiliate people. How they choose to humiliate other people too can range from the less obvious simply keeping their thoughts to themselves and keeping them hidden (I'm lucky in that other case I mentioned that couple let me know they were atheist before I said anything about me having to get up for mass in the morning :pac: So I just kept it to myself, just like I should have known to keep my same sex tonsil tennis tales to myself - you live and learn

), to outright attacking the person verbally and physically in order to humiliate them and hurt them and let them know their place so to speak.

Some people, and thankfully it's only a minority in this case, are only interested in themselves, and they're not interested in the welfare of others, they think they have rights because that's the way it's "always been" for them, and anything which upsets that world view, the more it throws them off balance, the more they're going to hate it.

Kiwi in IE · 20-04-2015 10:58AM

haveringchick wrote: »

Well I could pick any of literally dozens of posts across at least 3 threads which for me typifies the yes campaign on boards.
But Zubs metaphoric suggestion that he is entitled to put his boot to the head of anyone
Who holds an opinion different to his takes the gold medal really.
Here's a shocking truth.
People can think what they want feel however they want and vote however they please , or not vote if they please. That goes for GE LE referendums X Factor whatever.
They may have 1 million different reasons for their desicion and everyone of those reasons is valid. For them. Thank God.

Actually I thought Zub's post (the boot bit) was a bit harsh too. So I have decided to vote against equal marriage now and punish the entire country because Zub said that.

How will you vote in the Marriage Equality referendum? Mod Note Post 1

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