How will you vote in the Marriage Equality referendum? Mod Note Post 1

folamh · 19-04-2015 10:04PM

I definitely think it's problematic that gay people and also women come under far more scrutiny than other people for adopting conservative politics. Conservative women and conservative gays face a level of scrutiny that straight men in the same positions don't have to deal with.

Zaph · 19-04-2015 10:16PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

4. Don't be so complacent. Look at the poll above:

On a site with 600,000 members, only 2,000 voted in the poll, and a quarter of those are either undecided, abstaining, or just voting no.

I wouldn't take any sort of inspired confidence from those figures tbh.

It's worth bearing in mind that although there are currently over 700,000 accounts registered on Boards, the number of active accounts is only a fraction of that. For example, the most number of people online at the same time was just under 14,500 one day last November. Currently there are just under 6,000 people logged in, and less than 1,800 of them are registered members.

One eyed Jack · 19-04-2015 10:18PM

hotmail.com wrote: »

The No side seem to want to claim victimhood and that they are being bullied by the Yes side..Apart from the fact that this is incorrect and it's a matter of them actually just losing the argument..Are they seriously unaware that the arguments they use can be intrinsically hurtful and demeaning to many gay and lesbian people that are listening to it.

Even as a hardened political/gay hack like myself, sometimes the things they say do hurt - things like gays can't be parents, gays shouldn't be allowed to marry etc.. I consider these views as bully like.

Both sides tbh IMO seem to want to claim victimhood and that they are being bullied by the opposing side. Depending upon what way you look at it, both sides are correct, and I have to wonder are both sides seriously that unaware that the 'arguments' they use can be intrinsically hurtful and demeaning to people who are listening to it, be they lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, roman catholic, muslim, protestant, atheist, non-religious or otherwise, man, woman or intersex.

Both sides are using some pretty shìtty 'arguments' and making some piss poor generalisations and hurtful remarks about plenty of people, and alienating people on both sides who have no interest in the political pissing contest that has become of their lives. People using other people to score points off each other.

Even having skin as thick as an elephants behind, you'd have to wonder about the lack of self-awareness in some people that they can't see past the end of their own noses.

(not specifically directed at you hotmail, just a general comment on the piss poor attitudes of people in general towards other people)

The thing is though as I keep reiterating, the YES campaign are the people with everything to lose. The no campaign really don't give a fiddlers because they have nothing to lose.

One eyed Jack · 19-04-2015 10:24PM

folamh wrote: »

I definitely think it's problematic that gay people and also women come under far more scrutiny than other people for adopting conservative politics. Conservative women and conservative gays face a level of scrutiny that straight men in the same positions don't have to deal with.

You think?

One eyed Jack wrote: »

FYP there Bridge, and on that note, I would urge people to consider the fact that just because those people who are opposed to marriage equality have either left the discussion of their own volition, or have been made to leave the discussion because they were unwilling to engage in the first place, I would hope that the complacency rot doesn't set in among the yes campaign again.

I've seen this complacency in action with people I understood were friends of mine who spoke all the right words about being young, atheist, liberal, pro-lgbt and all the rest of it, and it was my own fault that I became complacent enough to believe that when we were having a conversation about homosexuality and so on, I happened to mention that I'd played tonsil tennis with a couple of guys when I was younger. Their reactions were fairly telling. Suddenly - it was ok for them to be pro-lgbt, but they had made complacent presumptions about me too that I was reserved and conservative and butter wouldn't melt in my mouth (in fairness I'm normally dressed like a JW with the white shirt, navy tie and black trousers ).

They couldn't hide their distaste upon suddenly being presented with this new information which they couldn't process as it didn't fit in with their preconceptions. Their immediate reaction was to recoil in horror and almost synchronously pronounce "ew!". The friendship really didn't last much longer after that unfortunately. They weren't bad people, they just hadn't given much thought to what they were saying or supporting, and they liked to assume that nobody else could be as liberal and opinionated and all the rest of it as they were.

I've seen it in this thread alone where people have even taken each other up wrong where they both support marriage equality, but due to their preconceived ideas about other people, it's caused miscommunication and people taking each other up wrong and attacking other people (not talking about me, I've thicker skin than an elephant, because I've had to grow it due to constant abuse when I didn't fit with people's preconceived ideas - they don't bloody like it!), but I've seen people who are voting yes in this referendum try to give their opinion and being taken up wrong, and then they leave the discussion.

I understand that naturally this is an issue that people are going to take personally, and they're going to jump to conclusions and make snap judgments about people, but I would urge those people that before they react, before they retaliate, give the other person a chance at least to explain themselves. Put yourself in their shoes and try and imagine how you would feel if someone were to jump down your throat when you tried to express your thoughts. I understand that of course it's difficult sometimes, but if you're looking for people to understand you, the onus is upon you to show other people understanding first. If upon further discussion it becomes clear that they are diametrically opposed to your position, then instead of abusing them, just walk away, because after that point you're just wasting your time and you're only going to upset yourself even further.

hotmail.com · 19-04-2015 10:27PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Both sides tbh IMO seem to want to claim victimhood and that they are being bullied by the opposing side. Depending upon what way you look at it, both sides are correct, and I have to wonder are both sides seriously that unaware that the 'arguments' they use can be intrinsically hurtful and demeaning to people who are listening to it, be they lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, roman catholic, muslim, protestant, atheist, non-religious or otherwise, man, woman or intersex.

Both sides are using some pretty shìtty 'arguments' and making some piss poor generalisations and hurtful remarks about plenty of people, and alienating people on both sides who have no interest in the political pissing contest that has become of their lives. People using other people to score points off each other.

Even having skin as thick as an elephants behind, you'd have to wonder about the lack of self-awareness in some people that they can't see past the end of their own noses.

(not specifically directed at you hotmail, just a general comment on the piss poor attitudes of people in general towards other people)

The thing is though as I keep reiterating, the YES campaign are the people with everything to lose. The no campaign really don't give a fiddlers because they have nothing to lose.

How is the arguments on the Yes side demeaning to Catholics, Muslims or Protestants?

haveringchick · 19-04-2015 10:33PM

folamh wrote: »

A writer for the Journal reckons the referendum will fail because only No campaigners are appealing to undecided/wavering voters, whereas Yes campaigners are hostile to the unddecided: http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/same-sex-marriage-vote-no-2053769-Apr2015/

I sympathise with the Yes campaigners, in that it's difficult not to be hostile to someone who is "undecided" about denying you equal rights (I think it was Eddie Hobbs who was arguing that we shouldn't even be having a referendum at all?). But at the same time, for practical purposes, maybe it's necessarily for Yes campaigners to engage those who have reservations about their cause in a civil and positive manner.

I was undecided, wavering, on the fence. Some time ago, following several threads here I've become inincreasingly disenchanted with the yes campaign and have decided to vote no.
It was for the yes campaign to persuade the likes of me of the veracity of their argument. Sadly except for one or two posters the rest of the yes proponents on Boards at least come across very badly. Some have no positive argument to put forward and only seem interested in ridiculing mocking and belittling others.
Yes I did read posts from proponents of a No vote who were obnoxious but felt they were mostly trolls and that the yes fanatics delighted in feeding them.
Anyway that's my 2 cents. It's a no from me.

Bridge93 · 19-04-2015 10:35PM

haveringchick wrote: »

I was undecided, wavering, on the fence. Some time ago, following several threads here I've become inincreasingly disenchanted with the yes campaign and have decided to vote no.
It was for the yes campaign to persuade the likes of me of the veracity of their argument. Sadly except for one or two posters the rest of the yes proponents on Boards at least come across very badly. Some have no positive argument to put forward and only seem interested in ridiculing mocking and belittling others.
Yes I did read posts from proponents of a No vote who were obnoxious but felt they were mostly trolls and that the yes fanatics delighted in feeding them.
Anyway that's my 2 cents. It's a no from me.

So you're voting based on the behaviour of others and not on the issue the referendum is potentially amending?
Assuming you're not LGBT, that seems pretty unfair on those this affects. No problem voting no if that's your point of view but to do it as a sort of protest vote?

folamh · 19-04-2015 10:36PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You think?

I mean in the sense of women like Ayaan Hirsi Ali who has done so much for facilitating girls' education in the Middle East and countering FGM. But liberals don't like her because she's a member of the conservative think tank AEI, and they choose to go after *her* instead of the many men affiliated with that institution. She's targeted by liberals because they simply don't think that black women should have conservative politics.

osarusan · 19-04-2015 10:39PM

haveringchick wrote: »

I was undecided, wavering, on the fence. Some time ago, following several threads here I've become inincreasingly disenchanted with the yes campaign and have decided to vote no.
It was for the yes campaign to persuade the likes of me of the veracity of their argument. Sadly except for one or two posters the rest of the yes proponents on Boards at least come across very badly. Some have no positive argument to put forward and only seem interested in ridiculing mocking and belittling others.
Yes I did read posts from proponents of a No vote who were obnoxious but felt they were mostly trolls and that the yes fanatics delighted in feeding them.
Anyway that's my 2 cents. It's a no from me.

Before you followed these threads, what exactly were you wavering about? What issues were you undecided on?

Having read these threads, are you still wavering and undecided?

folamh · 19-04-2015 10:40PM

haveringchick wrote: »

I was undecided, wavering, on the fence. Some time ago, following several threads here I've become inincreasingly disenchanted with the yes campaign and have decided to vote no.
It was for the yes campaign to persuade the likes of me of the veracity of their argument. Sadly except for one or two posters the rest of the yes proponents on Boards at least come across very badly. Some have no positive argument to put forward and only seem interested in ridiculing mocking and belittling others.
Yes I did read posts from proponents of a No vote who were obnoxious but felt they were mostly trolls and that the yes fanatics delighted in feeding them.
Anyway that's my 2 cents. It's a no from me.

Are you basing your vote on the likeability of campaigners, rather than the right of gay people to marry?

folamh · 19-04-2015 10:43PM

Bridge93 wrote: »

So you're voting based on the behaviour of others and not on the issue the referendum is potentially amending?
Assuming you're not LGBT, that seems pretty unfair on those this affects. No problem voting no if that's your point of view but to do it as a sort of protest vote?

This is why I sympathize with so-called "obnoxious" Yes campaigners, despite the practical importance of convincing waverers. It must be so frustrating to watch people casually deliberating on something which affects your future in such a big way. Casual deliberation from people who enjoy the privilege of being able to choose to marry someday.

haveringchick · 19-04-2015 10:44PM

Bridge93 wrote: »

So you're voting based on the behaviour of others and not on the issue the referendum is potentially amending?

Im paid to listen to people. I listened carefully to the case the Yes lobby were making. I didn't need to listen to the No lobby. The No lobby enjoy the status quo.
The case for the yes lobby as presented by boards posters is as follows:
Vote yes or be described variously as:
A homophobe
A paedophile supporter
An old fogey
An idiot
An object of ridicule.

One eyed Jack · 19-04-2015 10:46PM

hotmail.com wrote: »

How is the arguments on the Yes side demeaning to Catholics, Muslims or Protestants?

There's a reason I used the word 'arguments' in inverted commas, because some of the comments from the yes side have been demeaning to people who identify as religious. Those people making the comments obviously have an axe to grind against religion, but they're completely missing the point that this referendum simply has nothing to do with religion, so their 'arguments' are moot, meaningless, not even relevant to the discussion. Doesn't stop them though making hurtful comments, all the while ignoring the fact that identifying as LGBT and identifying as religious, aren't mutually exclusive, and many people identify as both.

I'm not going to go over both this thread and the many previous threads to give you examples, you should be aware of them by now. It'd honestly make me wonder if you weren't.

folamh · 19-04-2015 10:46PM

haveringchick wrote: »

Im paid to listen to people. I listened carefully to the case the Yes lobby were making. I didn't need to listen to the No lobby. The No lobby enjoy the status quo.
The case for the yes lobby as presented by boards posters is as follows:
Vote yes or be described variously as:
A homophobe
A paedophile supporter
An old fogey
An idiot
An object of ridicule.

So for these reasons, gay people should not be able to marry?

tessat · 19-04-2015 10:52PM

haveringchick wrote: »

Im paid to listen to people. I listened carefully to the case the Yes lobby were making. I didn't need to listen to the No lobby. The No lobby enjoy the status quo.
The case for the yes lobby as presented by boards posters is as follows:
Vote yes or be described variously as:
A homophobe
A paedophile supporter
An old fogey
An idiot
An object of ridicule.

I obsolutely disagree with what you have said there and from what you have written you clearly have not taken the time to listen to many people except the no campaign view of those voting yes.

I posted about children's rights being a positive by product for want of a better term. That the children of same sex couples will be equal under the constitution to those of opposite sex couples. If you want a great reason to vote yes, there is it.
It is nothing to do with any of the terms you posted and is a genuinely good thing to do. Do something for someone else that won't benefit you personally. Be proud to be able to say I voted to make my country a more equal society.

Kiwi in IE · 19-04-2015 10:53PM

haveringchick wrote: »

I was undecided, wavering, on the fence. Some time ago, following several threads here I've become inincreasingly disenchanted with the yes campaign and have decided to vote no.
It was for the yes campaign to persuade the likes of me of the veracity of their argument. Sadly except for one or two posters the rest of the yes proponents on Boards at least come across very badly. Some have no positive argument to put forward and only seem interested in ridiculing mocking and belittling others.
Yes I did read posts from proponents of a No vote who were obnoxious but felt they were mostly trolls and that the yes fanatics delighted in feeding them.
Anyway that's my 2 cents. It's a no from me.

You have decided which way to vote in a referendum based on the fact that you do not like some posters on some threads on Boards? Wow!

Bannasidhe · 19-04-2015 11:00PM

haveringchick wrote: »

Im paid to listen to people. I listened carefully to the case the Yes lobby were making. I didn't need to listen to the No lobby. The No lobby enjoy the status quo.
The case for the yes lobby as presented by boards posters is as follows:
Vote yes or be described variously as:
A homophobe
A paedophile supporter
An old fogey
An idiot
An object of ridicule.

Vote No and reinforce the message that homosexuality is a disorder, that children raised in same-sex couples are being denied something or other that remains undefined and will have psychological problems due to being 'experiments'.

Vote No and send a clear message that all Irish citizens are not equal under the law.

Vote No and tell LGBT people that Ireland doesn't really value them.

Vote No and give Religious fundamentalists ammunition to claim they have a mandate to lobby for an input into civil legislation.

You obviously haven't been listening clearly.

I don't believe you ever 'wavered' tbh.

osarusan · 19-04-2015 11:01PM

Nah, this is just a variety of the 'I'm voting no because you're all so mean' from a poster who has the baffling position that the No side is exempt from this method of deciding how to vote, because their position is the status quo. It is, apparently, ok to be mean and insulting if you favour the status quo.

I've said it before, probably on this thread - based on the polls, I don't believe it is necessary for the Yes side to pander to people who are undecided about the issue.

The best policy would be to target those who are undecided about actually voting at all, but who would vote yes if they voted. If they get those people out to vote, it will be a clear majority.

hotmail.com · 19-04-2015 11:01PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

There's a reason I used the word 'arguments' in inverted commas, because some of the comments from the yes side have been demeaning to people who identify as religious. Those people making the comments obviously have an axe to grind against religion, but they're completely missing the point that this referendum simply has nothing to do with religion, so their 'arguments' are moot, meaningless, not even relevant to the discussion. Doesn't stop them though making hurtful comments, all the while ignoring the fact that identifying as LGBT and identifying as religious, aren't mutually exclusive, and many people identify as both.

I'm not going to go over both this thread and the many previous threads to give you examples, you should be aware of them by now. It'd honestly make me wonder if you weren't.

But on the merits of the referendum itself, there is nothing demeaning or hurtful about it for Catholics, Protestants or Muslims?

haveringchick · 19-04-2015 11:05PM

folamh wrote: »

So for these reasons, gay people should not be able to marry?

Boards posters who jumped from thread to thread insulting belittling and scoffing at the undecided and the misguided, and who helped to ruin reasonable argument by feeding the trolls, have persuaded me to sympathize with the No lobby and vote against the referendum.
How many more of me are there?
How many Dublin commuters looked at that mural and secretly felt irked?
How many people really are uncomfortable with such a major change to the status quo but are loathe to voice an opinion or even ask a question for fear of instant social exclusion akin to that visited on unmarried pregnant girls for decades on end?
I guess you'll find out in a few weeks.

dark crystal · 19-04-2015 11:06PM

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

You have decided which way to vote in a referendum based on the fact that you do not like some posters on some threads on Boards? Wow!

Democracy in action right there. We get a small modicum of power to decide whether gay people should finally be recognised as equals under the law and there are people who would use that power to deny them that right based on nothing other a few posts on an internet forum.

Wow doesn't even cover it.

osarusan · 19-04-2015 11:07PM

haveringchick wrote: »

Boards posters who jumped from thread to thread insulting belittling and scoffing at the undecided and the misguided, and who helped to ruin reasonable argument by feeding the trolls, have persuaded me to sympathize with the No lobby and vote against the referendum.
How many more of me are there?
How many Dublin commuters looked at that mural and secretly felt irked?
How many people really are uncomfortable with such a major change to the status quo but are loathe to voice an opinion or even ask a question for fear of instant social exclusion akin to that visited on unmarried pregnant girls for decades on end?
I guess you'll find out in a few weeks.

Can I ask again, what were the issues which had you wavering initially?

And, after reading the substance of the arguments of the Yes side, are you still wavering on these issues?

folamh · 19-04-2015 11:08PM

haveringchick wrote: »

Boards posters who jumped from thread to thread insulting belittling and scoffing at the undecided and the misguided, and who helped to ruin reasonable argument by feeding the trolls, have persuaded me to sympathize with the No lobby and vote against the referendum.
How many more of me are there?
How many Dublin commuters looked at that mural and secretly felt irked?
How many people really are uncomfortable with such a major change to the status quo but are loathe to voice an opinion or even ask a question for fear of instant social exclusion akin to that visited on unmarried pregnant girls for decades on end?
I guess you'll find out in a few weeks.

I think that homosexuals' right to marry is more important than all of that. How would you like it if you were gay and wanted to marry your partner, but couldn't because some people felt that Yes campaigners didn't make them feel nice in 2015?

pl4ichjgy17zwd · 19-04-2015 11:09PM

haveringchick wrote: »

Boards posters who jumped from thread to thread insulting belittling and scoffing at the undecided and the misguided, and who helped to ruin reasonable argument by feeding the trolls, have persuaded me to sympathize with the No lobby and vote against the referendum.
How many more of me are there?
How many Dublin commuters looked at that mural and secretly felt irked?
How many people really are uncomfortable with such a major change to the status quo but are loathe to voice an opinion or even ask a question for fear of instant social exclusion akin to that visited on unmarried pregnant girls for decades on end?
I guess you'll find out in a few weeks.

So you don't actually care about the issues then, you just want the yes side to lose out of spite?

EDIT: What's the bold bit about? Why would they feel 'irked'?

Kiwi in IE · 19-04-2015 11:11PM

haveringchick wrote: »

How many more of me are there?
How many Dublin commuters looked at that mural and secretly felt irked?

Why would you or anyone else feel secretly 'irked' by the mural? Do you feel irked when you see a billboard showing a straight couple hugging?

Zubeneschamali · 19-04-2015 11:12PM

haveringchick wrote: »

Vote yes or be described variously as:
A homophobe
A paedophile supporter
An old fogey
An idiot
An object of ridicule.

Be at peace: the referendum will be a Secret Ballot, and the Gaystapo will never find out that you voted no.

They do have nice leather trench coats, though, don't they?

Bannasidhe · 19-04-2015 11:14PM

haveringchick wrote: »

Boards posters who jumped from thread to thread insulting belittling and scoffing at the undecided and the misguided, and who helped to ruin reasonable argument by feeding the trolls, have persuaded me to sympathize with the No lobby and vote against the referendum.
How many more of me are there?
How many Dublin commuters looked at that mural and secretly felt irked?
How many people really are uncomfortable with such a major change to the status quo but are loathe to voice an opinion or even ask a question for fear of instant social exclusion akin to that visited on unmarried pregnant girls for decades on end?
I guess you'll find out in a few weeks.

Nope.

I'm not buying it.

I'm am not convinced for one second that if you had indeed being going from thread to thread on a troll hunt you could have failed to notice the number of No advocates who got themselves banned from thread after thread due to their comments.

Zubeneschamali · 19-04-2015 11:16PM

haveringchick wrote: »

How many more of me are there?

I'll guess we're at about 35% homophobe.

But we could be still at 55%, and lose.

Still, run it again in 10 years and it'll sail through.

folamh · 19-04-2015 11:16PM

If you feel irked by a few anomalous murals, lesbians kissing in the park and Brokeback Mountain, think of how gay people must feel every day when they see heterosexuality depicted in nearly every aspect of the media.

steamengine · 19-04-2015 11:16PM

haveringchick wrote: »

Boards posters who jumped from thread to thread insulting belittling and scoffing at the undecided and the misguided, and who helped to ruin reasonable argument by feeding the trolls, have persuaded me to sympathize with the No lobby and vote against the referendum.
How many more of me are there?
How many Dublin commuters looked at that mural and secretly felt irked?
How many people really are uncomfortable with such a major change to the status quo but are loathe to voice an opinion or even ask a question for fear of instant social exclusion akin to that visited on unmarried pregnant girls for decades on end?
I guess you'll find out in a few weeks.

There are many more. A lot of people simply hold the traditional point of view that marriage is between a man and a woman only. On another forum my posts were labelled as homophobic and equated with religious fundamentalism, which has only reinforced my resolve now to vote NO.

How will you vote in the Marriage Equality referendum? Mod Note Post 1

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