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The Gay Megathread (see mod note on post #2212)

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Comments

  • #4442
    a postere
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 194 ✭✭a postere


    Nick Park wrote: »
    True, but it surfaces in this forum occasionally - probably for the following reasons.

    a) There isn't a Jewish forum.
    b) Baiting Jews isn't generally considered politically correct, whereas baiting Christians is grand.
    c) You always get one or two Christian posters who, instead of doing decent biblical exegesis, like to spout verses from Leviticus out of context and so set themselves up for a comeback such as this.

    True, and above all everyone likes to forget what the baiting of Jews led to, and the baiting of Catholics in NI, while Christians are still being slaughtered in their thousands elsewhere in the world. The more things change, the more they stay the same.


  • #4443
    B_Wayne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭B_Wayne


    a postere wrote: »
    True, and above all everyone likes to forget what the baiting of Jews led to, and the baiting of Catholics in NI, while Christians are still being slaughtered in their thousands elsewhere in the world. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

    I imagine most users would object to the actual persecution and murdering of Christians. It's also worth remembering that gay people are also being persecuted across the globe and much of it is accepted in the Western.

    But relating equality laws and anti-discrimination laws to fascism and the likes. That's shameful. Following the laws that you've chosen to abide by running a business is simply part of living in a state. It's an insult to actual persecution and suffering.


  • #4444
    Nick Park
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,573 ✭✭✭Nick Park


    B_Wayne wrote: »
    I imagine most users would object to the actual persecution and murdering of Christians. It's also worth remembering that gay people are also being persecuted across the globe and much of it is accepted in the Western.

    But relating equality laws and anti-discrimination laws to fascism and the likes. That's shameful. Following the laws that you've chosen to abide by running a business is simply part of living in a state. It's an insult to actual persecution and suffering.

    Really? In which Western countries is the persecution of gay people across the globe accepted?

    Where did a postere relate equality laws to fascism and the likes?


  • #4445
    a postere
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 194 ✭✭a postere


    B_Wayne wrote: »
    I imagine most users would object to the actual persecution and murdering of Christians. It's also worth remembering that gay people are also being persecuted across the globe and much of it is accepted in the Western.

    But relating equality laws and anti-discrimination laws to fascism and the likes. That's shameful. Following the laws that you've chosen to abide by running a business is simply part of living in a state. It's an insult to actual persecution and suffering.

    Your straw man is not that clear, where did I claim that exactly ?


  • #4446
    B_Wayne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭B_Wayne


    Nick Park wrote: »
    Really? In which Western countries is the persecution of gay people across the globe accepted?

    Where did a postere relate equality laws to fascism and the likes?

    He implied it by mentioning where he mentioned 'baiting Jews'. In relation to persecution in the Western world. I'll happily admit it's small in contrast to out of it. However hate crimes are a form of persecuting groups.
    The Police Services of Northern Ireland, in statistical
    reporting for the period of April 1, 2007, through March
    31, 2008, reported details on 160 “homophobic”
    incidents and 7 “transphobic” incidents.33 68.4 percent
    of those incidents were reported to be violent crimes
    against persons (as opposed to property crimes),
    significantly higher than for any other bias category.
    https://www.humanrightsfirst.org/wp-content/uploads/pdf/fd-080924-lgbt-web2.pdf

    Other examples includes the likes of parents sending their children to reparative therapy which does happen in the United States for example. Viewing a person's orientation as something that can be 'cured'. The LGBT community has a documented increased risk of suicide and one of the biggest reasons is because of their friends and family's rejecting them.

    Then if we go to many of the same states as where Christians are being persecuted such as Saudi Arabia, the persecution happens to gay people as well. I view both forms of persecution to be awful. You seem to view the people who support gay rights to be silent on the suffering of Christian because your Christian. However that is not true.


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  • #4447
    a postere
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 194 ✭✭a postere


    B_Wayne wrote: »
    He implied it by mentioning where he mentioned 'baiting Jews'. In relation to persecution in the Western world. I'll happily admit it's small in contrast to out of it. However hate crimes are a form of persecuting groups.


    Other examples includes the likes of parents sending their children to reparative therapy which does happen in the United States for example. Viewing a person's orientation as something that can be 'cured'. The LGBT community has a documented increased risk of suicide and one of the biggest reasons is because of their friends and family's rejecting them.

    Then if we go to many of the same states as where Christians are being persecuted such as Saudi Arabia, the persecution happens to gay people as well. I view both forms of persecution to be awful. You seem to view the people who support gay rights to be silent on the suffering of Christian because your Christian. However that is not true.

    I implied no such thing, I'm afraid your straw man has fallen to pieces.


  • #4448
    aloyisious
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,009 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    I regret to have to point out to some people that there is nothing contrary in being a gay or lesbian person and being a Christian. An example of this is Keith Mills, who hold's himself to be of Christian ethos, despite being an openly gay man. It's unfortunately true that is not the opinion held by the leadership of some churches which claim to be Christian, in that they claim the two are incompatible.

    Regarding Western persecution of gay people, one just has to look at Russia (unless of course one doesn't regard Russia as a Western Nation) and some states internal to the U.S.


  • #4449
    brian_t
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,914 ✭✭✭brian_t


    aloyisious wrote: »
    I regret to have to point out to some people that there is nothing contrary in being a gay or lesbian person and being a Christian. An example of this is Keith Mills, who hold's himself to be of Christian ethos, despite being an openly gay man.

    This would be a different Keith Mills to the one who describes himself as an agnostic gay man?

    Why I'll be voting 'No' to same-sex marriage, even though I'm gay


  • #4450
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/mcaleeses-son-talks-of-growing-up-as-gay-man-as-he-calls-for-yes-31152459.html

    Justn McAleese publicly comes out and calls for a Yes


  • #4451
    Benny_Cake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,205 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    aloyisious wrote: »
    I regret to have to point out to some people that there is nothing contrary in being a gay or lesbian person and being a Christian. An example of this is Keith Mills, who hold's himself to be of Christian ethos, despite being an openly gay man. It's unfortunately true that is not the opinion held by the leadership of some churches which claim to be Christian, in that they claim the two are incompatible.

    Keith Mills - now there's a blast from the past. Always the contrarian.

    I'd have nowhere to go on a Sunday morning if it wasn't for the gay and lesbian Christians who keep the show on the road, open up, make the tea and coffee, sit on the committees that no one else wants to sit on. I'll be thinking of them when I'm casting my vote in a few weeks.


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  • #4452
    Nick Park
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,573 ✭✭✭Nick Park


    B_Wayne wrote: »
    He implied it by mentioning where he mentioned 'baiting Jews'.

    Nonsense. Nowhere did he equate baiting Jews with legislation that prohibits discrimination.

    Now, I asked you to substantiate your claim that much of the worldwide persecution of gays is accepted in the West.

    You responded with:
    The Police Services of Northern Ireland, in statistical
    reporting for the period of April 1, 2007, through March
    31, 2008, reported details on 160 “homophobic”
    incidents and 7 “transphobic” incidents.33 68.4 percent
    of those incidents were reported to be violent crimes
    against persons (as opposed to property crimes),
    significantly higher than for any other bias category

    The PSNI does not record statistics of activities that are widely accepted. They record those statistics precisely because they are considered to be criminal acts - acts that by definition are most certainly unacceptable.

    Do you understand the difference between a practice being widely accepted and it being viewed as a crime deemed worthy of being recorded by the police?

    Now, once again, in which Western countries is persecution of gay people accepted? Bear in mind that you made this claim in response to another poster mentioning the slaughter of Christians - so you were drawing a clear correlation between the two.


  • #4453
    aloyisious
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,009 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    brian_t wrote: »
    This would be a different Keith Mills to the one who describes himself as an agnostic gay man?

    Why I'll be voting 'No' to same-sex marriage, even though I'm gay

    Blushes, I got it wrong about Keith's belief status. I keep thinking that those who follow the Iona Institute's train of thought are one variety of committed Christians.


  • #4454
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Benny_Cake wrote: »
    Keith Mills - now there's a blast from the past. Always the contrarian.

    I'd have nowhere to go on a Sunday morning if it wasn't for the gay and lesbian Christians who keep the show on the road, open up, make the tea and coffee, sit on the committees that no one else wants to sit on. I'll be thinking of them when I'm casting my vote in a few weeks.
    Are you saying you'll be voting 'no' like Keith Mills, as a gay Christian, is urging you to?

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/why-ill-be-voting-no-to-samesex-marriage-even-though-im-gay-30953906.html


  • #4455
    Turtwig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    J C wrote: »
    Are you saying you'll be voting 'no' like Keith Mills, as a gay Christian, is urging you to?

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/why-ill-be-voting-no-to-samesex-marriage-even-though-im-gay-30953906.html

    No he clearly isn't.
    (Always though Mills was agnostic.)
    Regardless, you misunderstood him.


  • #4456
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Turtwig wrote: »
    No he clearly isn't.
    (Always though Mills was agnostic.)
    Regardless, you misunderstood him.
    Who clearly isn't doing what?

    Where did I say Keith wasn't an Agnostic?

    ... and who have I misunderstood ... about what?


  • #4457
    Turtwig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Nevermind.

    Benny's meaning was pretty clear and you misunderstood it.


  • #4458
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Turtwig wrote: »
    Nevermind.

    Benny's meaning was pretty clear and you misunderstood it.
    ... well it obviously wasn't clear to me ... if I misunderstood it, like you say.

    ... indeed it's still not clear to me ... as nobody has answered my questions.


  • #4459
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    I'm still not really clear on what homosexual acts are. Anyone care to enlighten me?


  • #4460
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,413 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    lazygal wrote: »
    I'm still not really clear on what homosexual acts are. Anyone care to enlighten me?

    Those that are against these acts seem to know a lot about them. Hopefully they can inform us. They seem to think about it a lot too.


  • #4461
    tommy2bad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,254 ✭✭✭tommy2bad


    lazygal wrote: »
    I'm still not really clear on what homosexual acts are. Anyone care to enlighten me?

    Yes but you have to buy me dinner first ;)


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  • #4462
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    lazygal wrote: »
    I'm still not really clear on what homosexual acts are. Anyone care to enlighten me?

    Barry Manilow but not Bette Midler - even though they used to perform an act for homosexuals together in San Francisco bathhouses back in the 70s.


  • #4463
    Benny_Cake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,205 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    J C wrote: »
    Are you saying you'll be voting 'no' like Keith Mills, as a gay Christian, is urging you to?

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/why-ill-be-voting-no-to-samesex-marriage-even-though-im-gay-30953906.html

    C'mon JC, I thought it was pretty clear that I'll be voting yes!

    As covered already, Keith Mills doesn't claim to be a Christian. Of course there are some LGBT Christians who are opposed to same sex marriage. They're entitled to their views but I don't agree with them.


  • #4464
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Benny_Cake wrote: »
    C'mon JC, I thought it was pretty clear that I'll be voting yes!

    As covered already, Keith Mills doesn't claim to be a Christian. Of course there are some LGBT Christians who are opposed to same sex marriage. They're entitled to their views but I don't agree with them.
    I thought Keith was a Christian ... my mistake.
    ... I'm now even more interested in the fact that he is voting 'no'.

    Thanks for the clarification, Benny.


  • #4465
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    This is confusing; there was a perfectly good thread dealing specifically with the upcoming referendum, with particular reference to the link or otherwise between religious marriage and civil marriage. And it's been closed down, and the debate "transferred" here. I don't understand how these megathreads work, despite reading the mod notes. If a thread covers several areas of one huge issue, how can anyone focus on a debate on one particular aspect?

    Very strange ways of thinking around here.


  • #4466
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    katydid wrote: »
    This is confusing; there was a perfectly good thread dealing specifically with the upcoming referendum, with particular reference to the link or otherwise between religious marriage and civil marriage. And it's been closed down, and the debate "transferred" here. I don't understand how these megathreads work, despite reading the mod notes. If a thread covers several areas of one huge issue, how can anyone focus on a debate on one particular aspect?

    Very strange ways of thinking around here.

    I think because its such a hot topic at the moment it makes sense rather than have the forum cluttered up with gay threads. Although it can make it hard to follow the different tangents when everything is in one place.


  • #4467
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Why weren't all posts, after a determined point on the referendum thread, transferred here?

    Also, this is the Christianity Forum ... and marriage (and its possible redefinition) is a pretty important subject, in and of itself ... so it would seem reasonable to have a thread dedicated to the issue of the various churches views on it and indeed exactly why it is being proposed in the first place (from a legal point of view).

    Anyway, can somebody answer my question about what the constitutional purpose of the referendum is ... i.e. what would a 'yes' vote allow, that isn't allowed via legislation already ... or couldn't be legislated for?


  • #4468
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    J C wrote: »
    Why weren't all posts, after a determined point on the referendum thread, transferred here?

    Anyway, can somebody answer my question about what the constitutional purpose of the referendum is ... i.e. what would a 'yes' vote allow, that isn't allowed via legislation already ... or couldn't be legislated for?

    I supplied you a link with the differences and explained the whole same people who dont want gay people to be married dont want their relationships being close to married. Look at what happened when civil partnerships brought in. Look at the family and relationships bill, that is being brushed under the carpet so people can claim that voting no will prevent gay people adopting as due to their prejudice gay people shouldnt have children.


  • #4469
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I think because its such a hot topic at the moment it makes sense rather than have the forum cluttered up with gay threads. Although it can make it hard to follow the different tangents when everything is in one place.

    It makes it very hard to follow. What on earth is the problem with having a discussion on a current issue which happens to be about homosexuality? It seems to me like an attempt to bury it.


  • #4470
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    shruikan2553 wrote: »
    I supplied you a link with the differences and explained the whole same people who dont want gay people to be married dont want their relationships being close to married. Look at what happened when civil partnerships brought in. Look at the family and relationships bill, that is being brushed under the carpet so people can claim that voting no will prevent gay people adopting as due to their prejudice gay people shouldnt have children.
    Was that the spreadsheet ... that showed that it could all be done by legal amendments?

    If it wasn't that link ... please provide it again as the transfer to this thread hasn't included all posts on the archbishop thread after a certain point.


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  • #4471
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    katydid wrote: »
    It makes it very hard to follow. What on earth is the problem with having a discussion on a current issue which happens to be about homosexuality? It seems to me like an attempt to bury it.
    ... and its not just about homosexuality ... but the redefinition of marriage ... which could have all kinds of ramifications for the Church Ministers who conduct the vast majority of civil and religious weddings in this country.


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