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The Gay Megathread (see mod note on post #2212)

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Comments

  • #4382
    RikuoAmero
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭RikuoAmero


    silverharp wrote: »
    Can I ask a question as a parent. I'm guessing the average age of posters here is 20s. At some stage you are likely going to become parents. Statistically one in ten or less of you will have a child that will be gay.
    Will your beliefs affect how you relate or support your child? Will it be a taboo subject ,will you distance yourself from them when they become adults.

    Yes, I'm in my 20s and no, I don't think it would be a taboo subject. I'm acting as the father figure for my youngest siblings. I wouldn't go into too much detail, but if the sibling tells me they saw two girls or two boys kissing, I'd explain to them that there's nothing wrong with that.
    Same thing would happen if I had a child and they turned out homosexual. I'd accept them for who they are. After all, I'm bi.


  • #4383
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    RikuoAmero wrote: »
    Yes, I'm in my 20s and no, I don't think it would be a taboo subject. I'm acting as the father figure for my youngest siblings. I wouldn't go into too much detail, but if the sibling tells me they saw two girls or two boys kissing, I'd explain to them that there's nothing wrong with that.
    Same thing would happen if I had a child and they turned out homosexual. I'd accept them for who they are. After all, I'm bi.

    Seems reasonable but doesn't sound like a staunch christian position. I'd be more interested to hear from people who have strong anti gay positions or who see gay relationships as being "sinful"

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #4384
    RikuoAmero
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭RikuoAmero


    silverharp wrote: »
    Seems reasonable but doesn't sound like a staunch christian position. I'd be more interested to hear from people who have strong anti gay positions or who see gay relationships as being "sinful"

    Who said I was christian?:P


  • #4385
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,604 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    silverharp wrote: »
    Can I ask a question as a parent. I'm guessing the average age of posters here is 20s. At some stage you are likely going to become parents. Statistically one in ten or less of you will have a child that will be gay.
    Will your beliefs affect how you relate or support your child? Will it be a taboo subject ,will you distance yourself from them when they become adults.
    I am a Christian. I'm considerably past my 20s, and I'm already a parent.

    If a child of mine turned out to be gay - this hasn't happened yet - of course my beliefs would affect how I support them, in the same way as they would affect how I support a child that turns out to be straight. It will certainly not be a taboo subject, and I will certainly not distance myself from them.


  • #4386
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,055 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Off-topic posts deleted.

    Moderating action taken on a poster is between the poster and the mods/cMods/Admins.

    Thanks for your attention.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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  • #4387
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    I am a Christian. I'm considerably past my 20s, and I'm already a parent.

    If a child of mine turned out to be gay - this hasn't happened yet - of course my beliefs would affect how I support them, in the same way as they would affect how I support a child that turns out to be straight. It will certainly not be a taboo subject, and I will certainly not distance myself from them.

    how? would you judge the child? would you try to have the child "cured"? would you allow them to boy/girl friends? would you describe their behaviour as evil?

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #4388
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,604 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    silverharp wrote: »
    how?
    How what?
    silverharp wrote: »
    would you judge the child?
    You mean, judge them negatively for being gay? No. And I would encourage them not to judge themselves negatively for being gay, or to allow others do do so.
    silverharp wrote: »
    would you try to have the child "cured"?
    "Cured" of being gay, you mean? No.
    silverharp wrote: »
    would you allow them to boy/girl friends?
    Depends on age and level of maturity and independence. (Which is the same as I would say in relation to a straight child.) There will of course come a point where it would make no difference whether I "allow" romantic partners or not, and my object would be to guide them to a point where they are capable of mature, responsible and loving sexual and romantic decisions independently of me.
    silverharp wrote: »
    would you describe their behaviour as evil?
    Not unless it was evil. And I have no reason to expect my gay children to be any more disposed to evil than my straight children.


  • #4389
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    You sound reasonable in fairness but this country has a history of wanting to limit the rights of gay people. 2/3 of people didn't want the anti gay criminal laws repealed here in the early 90s. Now i know there is everything here from social catholics to extreme born again types so maybe attitudes in the home differ and are changing depending on your brand of religion but given the behind the scenes homophobia in religious groups. And any amount of anecdotal attitudes from religious types I have come across even my own devout mother I find it hard to believe that a number of gay kids of religious parents wont have an additional cross to bare

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #4390
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,604 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    silverharp wrote: »
    You sound reasonable in fairness but this country has a history of wanting to limit the rights of gay people. 2/3 of people didn't want the anti gay criminal laws repealed here in the early 90s. Now i know there is everything here from social catholics to extreme born again types so maybe attitudes in the home differ and are changing depending on your brand of religion but given the behind the scenes homophobia in religious groups. And any amount of anecdotal attitudes from religious types I have come across even my own devout mother I find it hard to believe that a number of gay kids of religious parents wont have an additional cross to bare
    They may do. On the other hand, gay kids of nonreligious parents might encounter similar or worse - there isn't a one-to-one correspondence between religion and homophobia.

    Plus, what you're asking here is what people would do in a hypothetical situation. What people say they will do in in imagined event is often quite different to what they do when that event becomes real. People who profess tolerance sometimes turn out not to be tolerant when faced with the reality of a gay child, and vice versa.

    I suggest if you're interested in anecdotal information on this, you might do better to head over to the LGBT forum and open a thread inviting LGBT boardies with actively religious parents - there will be many of them - to discuss what happened when they came out to their parents or, if they haven't come out, what they hope or fear might happen. I think that will get you more useful answers than anything you might get here.


  • #4391
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    How what?


    You mean, judge them negatively for being gay? No. And I would encourage them not to judge themselves negatively for being gay, or to allow others do do so.

    Peregrinus, do you believe that a sexually active gay person will suffer* for that in the next life?

    *for want of a better word.


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  • #4392
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,604 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    jobbridge4life wrote: »
    Peregrinus, do you believe that a sexually active gay person will suffer* for that in the next life?

    *for want of a better word.
    No, I don't.

    (On edit: At least, not on account of the sexual activity being gay. Obviously sexual activity might be problematic for other reasons, and gay people don't get a free pass on being exploitative, unloving, casual, irresponsible, hurtful, dishonest, selfish etc in their relationships.)

    (On further edit: And I wouldn't conceptualise moral problems in terms of "suffering in the next life" either. But let that pass. Can the expression of gay sexuality be immoral? Yes. Is it inherently immoral? I don't believe so.)


  • #4393
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Is it inherently immoral? I don't believe so.)

    but you are all members of churches that essentially say that any expression of homosexuality is sinful and there is clearly no acceptable union in a christian's eyes short of a gay couple saying they are celibate

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #4394
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,604 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    silverharp wrote: »
    but you are all members of churches that essentially say that any expression of homosexuality is sinful and there is clearly no acceptable union in a christian's eyes short of a gay couple saying they are celibate
    Well, yes, I'm a member of church which teaches that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered which can in no circumstances be approved. I have a problem accepting that teaching, obviously. I'm hardly alone; many Christians would be in a similar situation. Presumably this doesn't surprise you.


  • #4395
    Benny_Cake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,205 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    silverharp wrote: »
    but you are all members of churches that essentially say that any expression of homosexuality is sinful and there is clearly no acceptable union in a christian's eyes short of a gay couple saying they are celibate

    Not all of us are members of churches which say any expression of homosexuality is sinful. Those who are in such churches who disagree with that teaching...no two people agree on everything and I thinks it's unrealistic to expect that every member of a church is in 100% agreement with every position taken by their church. As Peregrinus said that's not an unusual situation and I can't see an issue with it. I'd smell a dangerous, controlling sect if it were otherwise.


  • #4396
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Well, yes, I'm a member of church which teaches that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered which can in no circumstances be approved. I have a problem accepting that teaching, obviously. I'm hardly alone; many Christians would be in a similar situation. Presumably this doesn't surprise you.

    no on the basis that many "christians" in Ireland are social catholics so they ignore church rules or pick and choose to suit. However on a thread such as this (which I havnt read most of) there are going to be more hard core catholics that fight gay rights at every turn or born again types that will have very black and white views. So my question to such a person is what are you going to do if you become the parent of a gay child. I would see added stresses for such a kid

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #4397
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,779 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    silverharp wrote: »
    no on the basis that many "christians" in Ireland are social catholics so they ignore church rules or pick and choose to suit. However on a thread such as this (which I havnt read most of) there are going to be more hard core catholics that fight gay rights at every turn or born again types that will have very black and white views. So my question to such a person is what are you going to do if you become the parent of a gay child. I would see added stresses for such a kid

    I don't think that is a question that can be easily answered. Without question, there are kids in that position. Common sense (which is not always correct) would suggest that it could go two ways. Either the parents position softens, in which case all will hopefully be well, or the position does not soften, in which case there could be trouble.

    The Internet is littered with tales of both.

    MrP


  • #4398
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,604 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    silverharp wrote: »
    no on the basis that many "christians" in Ireland are social catholics so they ignore church rules or pick and choose to suit. However on a thread such as this (which I havnt read most of) there are going to be more hard core catholics that fight gay rights at every turn or born again types that will have very black and white views. So my question to such a person is what are you going to do if you become the parent of a gay child. I would see added stresses for such a kid
    No offence, but I think you are slotting people into preconceived (and mostly pejorative) stereotypes of "social Catholics" and "hard-core" types who "fight gay rights at every turn". Reality is a bit more complex than that.

    I go back to the suggestion that I made earlier. If you want to know how religious people deal with their children coming out, ask your gay friends. It's a racing certainty that many of them have parents who are religious to varying degrees, and they can tell you how their parents dealt with it (or, if they are not out to their parents, how they would expect their parents to deal with it.) If you haven't got any gay friends, then head over to the LGBT forum; I'm pretty certain that a respectfully-phrased enquiry will lead to a fair number of posters over there sharing their experience, or their expectation, of coming out to religious parents - both positive and negative.


  • #4399
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    No offence, but I think you are slotting people into preconceived (and mostly pejorative) stereotypes of "social Catholics" and "hard-core" types who "fight gay rights at every turn". Reality is a bit more complex than that.

    I go back to the suggestion that I made earlier. If you want to know how religious people deal with their children coming out, ask your gay friends. It's a racing certainty that many of them have parents who are religious to varying degrees, and they can tell you how their parents dealt with it (or, if they are not out to their parents, how they would expect their parents to deal with it.) If you haven't got any gay friends, then head over to the LGBT forum; I'm pretty certain that a respectfully-phrased enquiry will lead to a fair number of posters over there sharing their experience, or their expectation, of coming out to religious parents - both positive and negative.

    But religous people will be on a scale , Social catholic is short hand for now thirty or forty somethings who gets their kids baptised etc but who ignore specific catholic moral teaching. So Im sure this group should be fine for the most part , I expect them to put their kids welfare first. On the other side of the scale there might be a small % who see their whole life revolving around their religion.
    There is a generation thing here , I have heard of people that had to leave Ireland to get on with their life due to family pressure so going on the other forum will only tell me about now 50 somethings and older. My question was to people who will be future parents who might have to deal with a gay child and as of now have a polarised view of gay people which from a gay person's point of view they would I assume view as negative.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #4400
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,604 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Well, fair enough. I note that your OP was addressed not so much to people who are already parents but to younger people who might expect to become parents in due course. You are basically asking what younger adults think they will do when, as older adults, they are faced with a situation which for now is only imaginary.

    It's a reasonable enquiry. Not wishing to offend anybody, but one of the notable characteristics of adolescents and young adults is the degree of passion and certitude which they tend to bring to their ethical views (whether progressive or conservative). Over time, actual experience of life tends to rub down the sharp corners a bit. Whatever your views on homosexuality (or anything else) as a childless twenty-something, by the time you actually have an adolescent child of your own coming out to you your views will certainly have changed somewhat, as a result of further reflection and actual experience of life.

    If I'm honest, if you had asked me this question when I was, say, 20, you probably wouldn't have got the answer I gave above; I would have been a good deal more ambivalent about affirming the intrinsic goodness of homosexuality. (Though, note, I was also less religious then, so you can't neatly attribute that to my religiosity. Just blame it on youth, stupidity and never having had much to do with anyone I knew to be gay.)


  • #4401
    shrewd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 295 ✭✭shrewd


    tempted to create a separate thread on this but can someone please answer this question for me, is this sentence not self-contradicting?

    "a christian can be gay but there is no such thing as a gay christian"


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  • #4402
    RikuoAmero
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭RikuoAmero


    shrewd wrote: »
    tempted to create a separate thread on this but can someone please answer this question for me, is this sentence not self-contradicting?

    "a christian can be gay but there is no such thing as a gay christian"

    Well, according to what I've heard from Christians, as long as you're celibate that's okay.


  • #4403
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,604 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    shrewd wrote: »
    tempted to create a separate thread on this but can someone please answer this question for me, is this sentence not self-contradicting?

    "a christian can be gay but there is no such thing as a gay christian"
    Yes, it is self-contradicting - and false. Of course there is such a thing as a gay Christian. Whether your views on homosexual orientation and homosexual activity are conservative or progressive, I don't think there is any mainstream Christian church which teaches that if you identify as gay or are actively gay in your sexual life you cease to be a Christian. They may teach that this is sinful, but they also acknowledge that Christians can be (and mostly are) sinners in various ways. Sinning Christians are still Christians.


  • #4404
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Yes, it is self-contradicting - and false. Of course there is such a thing as a gay Christian. Whether your views on homosexual orientation and homosexual activity are conservative or progressive, I don't think there is any mainstream Christian church which teaches that if you identify as gay or are actively gay in your sexual life you cease to be a Christian. They may teach that this is sinful, but they also acknowledge that Christians can be (and mostly are) sinners in various ways. Sinning Christians are still Christians.

    i would have assumed most Christian churches would mean you have to be struggling with what is perceived as a sin. If someone for example is in a long term actively gay relationship they are not waking up every morning and regretting their situation or as such they have nothing to confess.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #4405
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,604 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    silverharp wrote: »
    i would have assumed most Christian churches would mean you have to be struggling with what is perceived as a sin. If someone for example is in a long term actively gay relationship they are not waking up every morning and regretting their situation or as such they have nothing to confess.
    Most churches would say that, yes. But the conclusion for them would be that an actively gay Christian was a sinning or sinful Christian, not that they were not a Christian at all. If being a sinner was inconsistent with being a Christian, there would be very few Christians.


  • #4406
    hinault
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    If being a sinner was inconsistent with being a Christian, there would be very few Christians.

    This.


  • #4407
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    silverharp wrote: »
    i would have assumed most Christian churches would mean you have to be struggling with what is perceived as a sin. If someone for example is in a long term actively gay relationship they are not waking up every morning and regretting their situation or as such they have nothing to confess.

    I think you are underestimating the complexities of the human psyche


  • #4408
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    jobbridge4life wrote: »
    I think you are underestimating the complexities of the human psyche

    I don't understand your point. It is Christian morals that judge otherwise natural human behaviour as sinful. And to include the point above it would be easy enough to reference Christian opinion citing the bible to suggest that someone who doesn't view their activity as sinful as possibly bring "unsaved".

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #4409
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    silverharp wrote: »
    I don't understand your point. It is Christian morals that judge otherwise natural human behaviour as sinful. And to include the point above it would be easy enough to reference Christian opinion citing the bible to suggest that someone who doesn't view their activity as sinful as possibly bring "unsaved".

    You suggested in the post I quoted that those in a long term actively gay relationship would not be waking up with regret. I don't think that is necessarily universally true.


  • #4410
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    jobbridge4life wrote: »
    You suggested in the post I quoted that those in a long term actively gay relationship would not be waking up with regret. I don't think that is necessarily universally true.

    Very little about any human behaviour is universally true but if an otherwise happy in their skin gay couple decide to become Christians they either break up and become celibate, go down the struggle road yada yada which sounds psychologicaly unhealthy or stressful at the least or decide for themselves regardless of what the bible may say that their behaviour is not sinful.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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  • #4411
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,604 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    silverharp wrote: »
    Very little about any human behaviour is universally true but if an otherwise happy in their skin gay couple decide to become Christians they either break up and become celibate, go down the struggle road yada yada which sounds psychologicaly unhealthy or stressful at the least or decide for themselves regardless of what the bible may say that their behaviour is not sinful.
    I suspect the more common sequence of events is that one or both of them was Christian before they became a couple - before, frequentlly, they came to identify as a gay individual.

    I don't doubt that everyone who comes to know themselves as gay has to work out what this means for whatever religious beliefs they have, and whatever religious identity they may hold, and in the light of their understanding and experience of sexuality their beliefs and/or their identity may develop or change. Very often it may change to the point where, having formerly identified as Christian, they no longer identify as Christian, or as a believer of any kind. But very often it may not.

    I know many gay people who once would have identified as Christian and now no longer do so. They would all say, I'm pretty sure, that it would be absurdly simplistic to say that once they understood themselves as gay they abandoned Christianity, but I think they would also agree that their attachment to Christianity was influenced by their insights and experiences of themselvles as gay people, versus the teachings of the churches to which they belonged.

    But I also know gay people who still identify as Christian, and they would have a variety of accounts for how they reconcile whatever tensions this brings. Just as there's nothing intrinisic in Christianity which says "must not be gay", so there's nothing intrinsic in gayness which says "must not be Christian". Just as Christians can be gay, so gays can be Christian.


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