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Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

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Comments

  • #3362
    a postere
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 186 ✭✭a postere


    marienbad wrote: »
    Wouldn't it be great if the Christians behaved likewise ?

    No, a Christian that hates like some of atheists do and behaves like one, can call themselves what they want but they are not a Christian, as Christianity preaches against it. I mean you could call yourself a honest person, but it calling yourself that won't make you one.


  • #3363
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    marienbad wrote: »
    Wouldn't it be great if the Christians behaved likewise ?

    Most do. Funny how you, rightly, refuse to paint all atheists with the one brush but are quite happy to do exactly that with Christians


  • #3364
    MaxWig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,025 ✭✭✭MaxWig


    a postere wrote:
    Yeah but not all Atheists are haters, some of them simply don't believe, and aren't obsessed with Christianity, and just get on with their own lives.


    And that about sums it up for me. I think if, as an atheist, you have identified religion as something the world is 'better off without', you are in the same territory as a bishop denouncing homosexuality.
    Scientists, like Dawkins and Krauss, can take offence at the empirical validity of certain claims, but for the lay person such considerations rarely come into it.

    Its worth remembering that not all religious are haters. Not by a long shot.


  • #3365
    Turtwig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    marienbad wrote: »
    Wouldn't it be great if the Christians behaved likewise ?

    Mod:

    It would be even more brilliant if we could avoid this petty sniping at other groups. Especially when this is after all the Christianity forum and there's a charter that strictly prohibits this kind of thing.


  • #3366
    indioblack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭indioblack


    J C wrote: »
    Good points.

    God is an infinite being ... and both His Justice and His Mercy are infinite.
    Which aspect one chooses to be under is up to each person.


    God is an infinite being. I'd say most believers would accept that the attributes of god would all be unlimited. You mentioned two. Love, justice, mercy, power, knowledge etc. God can do anything - except anything bad.
    He can make no error, he cannot be false or act in ignorance - nothing negative can be attributed to him.
    And then there's us!
    We live limited lives on a limited planet. We can demonstrate love, mercy, power and knowledge too - in our limited fashion. We can also hate, be cruel, abuse power, and act in ignorance.
    Though I would add a positive point to acting in ignorance - belief. In that respect I'm not using the word ignorance as a criticism.
    So you have a god with unlimited abilities as the creator of a system that is clearly limited - this existence.
    As I've claimed before, for god to create our reality he has to effect a kind of compromise - a kind of reduction.
    In permitting the world to work as it does - and with no limit to his faculties - god must have been aware that he was, at least indirectly, introducing error into the system.
    Free will is often cited, but I don't think that's sufficient. It's free will within the system he created.
    Take god's love and mercy, for example. How much human suffering can god tolerate in the world he created?
    Judging from human history, it would seem he is able to countenance an unlimited amount of pain.


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  • #3367
    indioblack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭indioblack


    ABC101 wrote: »
    That quote was about a wealthy person asking Jesus about eternal salvation. Jesus replies to the man to abandon his earthly prosessions (love of materialism) and to serve the will of God i.e. follow Jesus, become a disciple etc.

    As for the question "who does that?"

    Well Priests and Nuns do and others such as Brothers etc. When ordained .... they take a vow of poverty... not to get attached to riches or material things etc.

    Getting attached to material things.... can act as a barrier to being more generous to the poor etc.

    So there are plenty of people... not just priests / religious... who don't chase material things... they live frugally enough... and yet still give to charity etc.

    In relation to your comment about

    "Why should people who have rejected god be automatically assumed to be hating him?"

    With respect to this thread... one particular Athiest Poster has been banned. I'm not going to mention his name...because he is not able to post and defend himself.

    However the posts he made about believers were grossly offensive. Describing believers as liars, feable minded people being just two examples. Another example is one where I saw a comment on Boards... where the Holy Trinity was described as "Group Sex".... debasing something which is very pure / very holy to the level of selfish hedonistic orgy. The poster probably thought they were being smart / funny... perhaps they did not realise that what they wrote was very hurtful.

    Athiests require to understand... when it comes to dicsussion / criticism of religon... it can be very hurtful for a believer. Even if the Athiest poster... does not mean to offend.....offence can be easily done.

    I do agree... there are Athiest posters who do not cause offense, they debate respectfully.... but there are a certain number who it would appear are driven by a pathological hatred of religion / belief, particularly Christianity.


    It's a bit daft to label believers as feeble-minded. After all, most atheist/agnostics would have been believers themselves once.
    I guess we can agree that there are a few extremists on both sides of this debate.


  • #3368
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    indioblack wrote: »
    God is an infinite being. I'd say most believers would accept that the attributes of god would all be unlimited. You mentioned two. Love, justice, mercy, power, knowledge etc. God can do anything - except anything bad.
    He can make no error, he cannot be false or act in ignorance - nothing negative can be attributed to him.
    And then there's us!
    We live limited lives on a limited planet. We can demonstrate love, mercy, power and knowledge too - in our limited fashion. We can also hate, be cruel, abuse power, and act in ignorance.
    Though I would add a positive point to acting in ignorance - belief. In that respect I'm not using the word ignorance as a criticism.
    So you have a god with unlimited abilities as the creator of a system that is clearly limited - this existence.
    As I've claimed before, for god to create our reality he has to effect a kind of compromise - a kind of reduction.
    In permitting the world to work as it does - and with no limit to his faculties - god must have been aware that he was, at least indirectly, introducing error into the system.
    Free will is often cited, but I don't think that's sufficient. It's free will within the system he created.
    Take god's love and mercy, for example. How much human suffering can god tolerate in the world he created?
    Judging from human history, it would seem he is able to countenance an unlimited amount of pain.
    ... He is also able to countenance an unlimited amount of pleasure too.
    ... and therein lies the rub ... do you want an infinity of pain under His infinite Justice ... or an infinity of pleasure under His infinite Mercy?


  • #3369
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    indioblack wrote: »
    It's a bit daft to label believers as feeble-minded. After all, most atheist/agnostics would have been believers themselves once.
    I guess we can agree that there are a few extremists on both sides of this debate.
    ... and it's doubly illogical to label 'believers' as feeble-minded ... when everybody is a believer in something ... whether it is derived from theist beliefs or atheist beliefs.


  • #3370
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    J C wrote: »
    ... and it's doubly illogical to label 'believers' as feeble-minded ... when everybody is a believer in something ... whether it is derived from theist beliefs or atheist beliefs.

    would it be fair to say that someone who believed that a Global flood and that Noah's Ark was real is feeble minded given the information we have to day compared to say two and a half thousand years ago?

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #3371
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    silverharp wrote: »
    would it be fair to say that someone who believed that a Global flood and that Noah's Ark was real is feeble minded given the information we have to day compared to say two and a half thousand years ago?
    Calling people feeble-minded is just 'name calling' which is both a logical fallacy ... and a losing way to debate ... as such name calling destroys the credability of the person doing the name calling.

    As for the evidence for Noah's Flood ... there is another thread for discussing that.


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  • #3372
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    J C wrote: »
    Calling people feeble-minded is just 'name calling' which is both a logical fallacy ... and a losing way to debate ... as such name calling destroys the credability of the person doing the name calling.

    As for the evidence for Noah's Flood ... there is another thread for discussing that.

    Remember science rarely goes to the bother of disproving religious stories for the sake of doing so ,from several different fields scientists will come to conclusions based on the evidence. The conclusion is that the earth is billions of years old , humans have been around for a hundred thousand years and events like the biblical flood couldnt have happened because it would contradict the evidence. Then you have some christians who have decided to have a point of view that the bible is a literal God breathed book so now they start out with a conclusion that the earth is 6000 years old and that Noah's flood happened. In the process though they have to put their normal cognitive abilities to sleep because they wont let the evidence lead them to a conclusion.
    Such a person deserves at the least no respect for their views and they leave themselves open to ridicule as they are no different to hucksters flogging scientology or other nonsense

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #3373
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    silverharp wrote: »
    Remember science rarely goes to the bother of disproving religious stories for the sake of doing so ,from several different fields scientists will come to conclusions based on the evidence. The conclusion is that the earth is billions of years old , humans have been around for a hundred thousand years and events like the biblical flood couldnt have happened because it would contradict the evidence. Then you have some christians who have decided to have a point of view that the bible is a literal God breathed book so now they start out with a conclusion that the earth is 6000 years old and that Noah's flood happened. In the process though they have to put their normal cognitive abilities to sleep because they wont let the evidence lead them to a conclusion.
    Such a person deserves at the least no respect for their views and they leave themselves open to ridicule as they are no different to hucksters flogging scientology or other nonsense
    I could make the exact same type of criticism of Atheists ... but without citing evidence, it would only be 'hand-waving' ... like you have just engaged in.

    BTW if you want to present evidence for your unfounded generalistions ... please come over to the mega-thread and present it ... and I'll reply to it there.


  • #3374
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    J C wrote: »
    I could make the exact same type of criticism of Atheists ... but without citing evidence, it would only be 'hand-waving' ... like you have just engaged in.

    BTW if you want to present evidence for your unfounded generalistions ... please come over to the mega-thread and present it ... and I'll reply to it there.

    not comparable , there are several Nobel prizes in for you if you are correct , more likely you are deluded because you have decided to believe certain things which contradict the evidence or you are a Poe

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #3375
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    silverharp wrote: »
    not comparable , there are several Nobel prizes in for you if you are correct , more likely you are deluded because you have decided to believe certain things which contradict the evidence or you are a Poe
    Like I have said, if you want to present evidence for your unfounded generalistions on 'origins' ... please come over to the mega-thread and present it ... and I'll reply to it there.:)


  • #3376
    indioblack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭indioblack


    J C wrote: »
    ... He is also able to countenance an unlimited amount of pleasure too.
    ... and therein lies the rub ... do you want an infinity of pain under His infinite Justice ... or an infinity of pleasure under His infinite Mercy?


    Reminds me of the Spanish proverb: "Take what you want", said god, "Take what you want and pay for it".
    It puts a burden of choice on us - but a different slant on our perspective of this omnipotent being.
    Infinite justice and mercy - and perhaps a tad indifferent too.


  • #3377
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    indioblack wrote: »
    Reminds me of the Spanish proverb: "Take what you want", said god, "Take what you want and pay for it".
    It puts a burden of choice on us - but a different slant on our perspective of this omnipotent being.
    Infinite justice and mercy - and perhaps a tad indifferent too.
    Of course God never said 'take what you want' ... He has told us to live our lives morally ... doing unto others what we would have other do unto us.

    None of us would want somebody else to take what they wanted from us, without our permission !!!

    ... and this moral principle also applies to our behaviour towards others.


  • #3378
    indioblack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭indioblack


    J C wrote: »
    Of course God never said 'take what you want' ... He has told us to live our lives morally ... doing unto others what we would have other do unto us.

    None of us would want somebody else to take what they wanted from us, without our permission !!!

    ... and this moral principle also applies to our behaviour towards others.



    I view the proverb as a warning against greed and avarice - not an encouragement to go out and nick things!
    Most people would accept the principle of living our lives morally - assuming that these moral principles are qualified and make sense.
    We may have moral aspirations -but being human we often fall short of their attainment. We hold principles - and then fail them. Again because we are mortal and live in an unfair world - a world which can cause us to stumble and fall - missing the mark, sinning.
    But this is the scenario we have been placed in. We act within the parameters of this world. The limitations of existence are the consequence of creation. Once again you have a limitless being creating this narrow stage on which we play out our lives.
    We could expect this creator to exhort us to attempt moral behaviour -as long as it's understood that this must be attained against the backdrop of an unfair and limited world - which he created.


  • #3379
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    indioblack wrote: »
    I view the proverb as a warning against greed and avarice - not an encouragement to go out and nick things!
    Most people would accept the principle of living our lives morally - assuming that these moral principles are qualified and make sense.
    We may have moral aspirations -but being human we often fall short of their attainment. We hold principles - and then fail them. Again because we are mortal and live in an unfair world - a world which can cause us to stumble and fall - missing the mark, sinning.
    But this is the scenario we have been placed in. We act within the parameters of this world. The limitations of existence are the consequence of creation. Once again you have a limitless being creating this narrow stage on which we play out our lives.
    We could expect this creator to exhort us to attempt moral behaviour -as long as it's understood that this must be attained against the backdrop of an unfair and limited world - which he created.
    ... the unfair and limited bit wasn't Created by God ... it arose through wilful disobedience against God, at the Fall ... everything else you say, is true.
    ... and God, in His infinite mercy has given us a way to 'square the circle' you have so eloquently described above ... and it is Salvation in Jesus Christ.


  • #3380
    indioblack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭indioblack


    J C wrote: »
    ... the unfair and limited bit wasn't Created by God ... it arose through wilful disobedience against God, at the Fall ... everything else you say, is true.
    ... and God, in His infinite mercy has given us a way to 'square the circle' you have so eloquently described above ... and it is Salvation in Jesus Christ.


    So the world we inhabitonly exists because of the Fall?


  • #3381
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    indioblack wrote: »
    So the world we inhabitonly exists because of the Fall?
    The presence of sin and death is due to the Fall.


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  • #3382
    indioblack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭indioblack


    J C wrote: »
    The presence of sin and death is due to the Fall.
    This physical reality, as we experience it, only exists because of the Fall?


  • #3383
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,644 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    J C wrote: »
    do you want an infinity of pain under His infinite Justice ... or an infinity of pleasure under His infinite Mercy?

    No, thanks.


  • #3384
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    No, thanks.
    It seems to be a choice between an infinity of pain/justice or pleasure/mercy ... not neither nor both.

    ... so which do you want?


  • #3385
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    indioblack wrote: »
    This physical reality, as we experience it, only exists because of the Fall?
    The sin and death aspects only exist, because of the Fall.


  • #3386
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    J C wrote: »
    The sin and death aspects only exist, because of the Fall.

    This is going round in circles.


  • #3387
    indioblack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭indioblack


    katydid wrote: »
    This is going round in circles.


    Maybe - maybe not.
    Unless you think people should have their own views - and leave it at that - which would make this thread redundant.
    The Fall, for example, has been described in literal biblical terms and also as a process in human development.
    I didn't think the fall from grace created the world. Even so, the claim is that it made a fundamental change in humanity.
    In my slow way I am pursuing this line - not desperately - but it can be instructive to get peoples explanations as to how they view these events.


  • #3388
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    indioblack wrote: »
    Maybe - maybe not.
    Unless you think people should have their own views - and leave it at that - which would make this thread redundant.
    The Fall, for example, has been described in literal biblical terms and also as a process in human development.
    I didn't think the fall from grace created the world. Even so, the claim is that it made a fundamental change in humanity.
    In my slow way I am pursuing this line - not desperately - but it can be instructive to get peoples explanations as to how they view these events.

    It's quite simple. IF you believe that there was an actual Fall, you believe what you believe. If you don't, you don't. I don't see that this is being "pursued" anywhere.


  • #3389
    galljga1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,937 ✭✭✭galljga1


    J C wrote: »
    It seems to be a choice between an infinity of pain/justice or pleasure/mercy ... not neither nor both.

    ... so which do you want?

    Methinks you are missing his point.


  • #3390
    indioblack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭indioblack


    katydid wrote: »
    It's quite simple. IF you believe that there was an actual Fall, you believe what you believe. If you don't, you don't. I don't see that this is being "pursued" anywhere.
    As you wish.
    This is a debate mostly centres around the existence of the Christian god. Other posters have stated that there is no proof either way - for the existence or non-existence of god.
    If that is so, it may be instructive to ask why people believe - and disbelieve. The motivation of believers and speculation as to why an omnipotent entity would behave in the way described in scripture.


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  • #3391
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    katydid wrote: »
    It's quite simple. IF you believe that there was an actual Fall, you believe what you believe. If you don't, you don't. I don't see that this is being "pursued" anywhere.
    It is a fundamental belief of Christianity ... but it is much more than a belief ... it is a logically derived axiom.

    ... and indioblack is correct to be pursuing/questioning the basis for this axiom.

    Just because you may not be interested in pursuing this (or any other idea) doesn't mean that you should dismiss people who do.


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