Australia to stop welfare payments for parents who dont vacinnate their kids

Egginacup · 13-04-2015 12:12PM

Tzardine wrote: »

Came across this story.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0413/693696-australia/

I think it's a great idea. How irresponsible can a person be to not vaccinate their children. Usually the tinfoil hat brigade.

Great. Punishing people for not accepting forced medical procedures.

Egginacup · 13-04-2015 12:13PM

kylith wrote: »

I wouldn't stop welfare payments, but I would deny access to schools and crèches.

Why?

ohnonotgmail · 13-04-2015 12:13PM

Egginacup wrote: »

Great. Punishing people for not accepting forced medical procedures.

you mean punishing irresponsibility towards their own children and other peoples children.

death1234567 · 13-04-2015 12:16PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Friend of mine has declined all the shots for his daughter.

His reasons are all based on things he read on the www. Real conspiracy theory stuff about Governments in bed with pharma companies to create scares and so on.

When people are that stupid it's no wonder we end up in a nanny state where governments have to force people into doing things that are just common sense.

ohnonotgmail · 13-04-2015 12:17PM

Egginacup wrote: »

Why?

because their little typhoid mary could infect those children who either couldnt be vaccinated for medical reasons or children where the vaccination didnt take.

Egginacup · 13-04-2015 12:20PM

Gatling wrote: »

Why not when you think about it .
Person smokes 40 a day and heap of pints and fatty foods.
there piss poor choices lead to meddical conditions that are fairly costly to treat in the long run .
and yet they end up paying next to nothing

Yeah, ok. Ban smoking and alcohol. Absent the billions that smokers and alcos pay in taxes, your medical premiums would go through the stratosphere. Probably cost you a month's wages just to get your blood pressure checked.

VinLieger · 13-04-2015 12:21PM

Egginacup wrote: »

Great. Punishing people for not accepting forced medical procedures.

Read up on how vaccinations work, there needs to be at least a 96% vaccination rate for them to be effective

Egginacup · 13-04-2015 12:23PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

because their little typhoid mary could infect those children who either couldnt be vaccinated for medical reasons or children where the vaccination didnt take.

Couldn't that happen on the bus or the playground or the shopping mall or the cinema?

Or do you want to have the non-vaccinated kids locked indoors with "Unclean" painted across the front door or banished to leper colonies while you're at it?

13-04-2015 12:28PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

only in the mid 80s for mumps according to this http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2014/04/18/304155213/why-mumps-and-measles-can-spread-even-when-were-vaccinated

But even with 95% that still leaves 5% where the vaccination doesnt take. so 1 child in a class of 20

No, because that 95% is the total population figure. You would expect the figure to be even higher amongst young children, since the immunity will not have waned as it has in older adults.

Also, during a mumps outbreak with 95% herd immunity, 5% is not the number who catch mumps, 5% is the number who could possibly contract mumps. I'm not sure what the transmission rate for the virus is, but it's likely to be considerably lower than 100% because it seems from my cursory reading that mumps is not as efficient in its transmission as other infectious diseases, like chickenpox or measles.

All in all, removing access to education from children whose parents refuse to vaccinate seems like a harmful approach. A far more sensible approach is to compel vaccinations for all children.

Streetwalker · 13-04-2015 12:32PM

Big brother BS

gctest50 · 13-04-2015 12:33PM

Originally Posted by Gatling
Why not when you think about it .
Person smokes 40 a day and heap of pints and fatty foods.
there piss poor choices lead to meddical conditions that are fairly costly to treat in the long run .
and yet they end up paying next to nothing

you'd think that but........ the cuddly ones are saving the country

" total lifetime health spending was greatest for the healthy-living people, lowest for the smokers, and intermediate for the obese people."

( because of differences in life expectancy (life expectancy at age 20 was 5 years less for the obese group, and 8 years less for the smoking group, compared to the healthy-living group))

http://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.0050029

kunst nugget · 13-04-2015 12:34PM

Egginacup wrote: »

Couldn't that happen on the bus or the playground or the shopping mall or the cinema?

Or do you want to have the non-vaccinated kids locked indoors with "Unclean" painted across the front door or banished to leper colonies while you're at it?

There was a Measles outbreak in Disney World. By all means, be a fúcking idiot with your own kids but when other kids can be harmed by your idiocy then I agree with steps been taken to protect other kids as much as possible such as proof of vaccination when being enrolled in creche or school.

ohnonotgmail · 13-04-2015 12:36PM

Egginacup wrote: »

Couldn't that happen on the bus or the playground or the shopping mall or the cinema?

Or do you want to have the non-vaccinated kids locked indoors with "Unclean" painted across the front door or banished to leper colonies while you're at it?

none of those involve being in the same room with an infected child all day. Or instead of arguing the toss you could just do the sensible thing and vaccinate your kids.

13-04-2015 12:37PM

kunst nugget wrote: »

There was a Measles outbreak in Disney World. By all means, be a fúcking idiot with your own kids but when other kids can be harmed by your idiocy then I agree with steps been taken to protect other kids as much as possible such as proof of vaccination when being enrolled in creche or school.

If there was a measles outbreak at Disney World, then it is overwhelmingly likely that the affected children were not vaccinated themselves.

ohnonotgmail · 13-04-2015 12:39PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

No, because that 95% is the total population figure. You would expect the figure to be even higher amongst young children, since the immunity will not have waned as it has in older adults.

Also, during a mumps outbreak with 95% herd immunity, 5% is not the number who catch mumps, 5% is the number who could possibly contract mumps. I'm not sure what the transmission rate for the virus is, but it's likely to be considerably lower than 100% because it seems from my cursory reading that mumps is not as efficient in its transmission as other infectious diseases, like chickenpox or measles.

All in all, removing access to education from children whose parents refuse to vaccinate seems like a harmful approach. A far more sensible approach is to compel vaccinations for all children.

and what do you do when the parents refuse? how can you compel somebody if there are no consequences to not vaccinating their children?

ohnonotgmail · 13-04-2015 12:40PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

If there was a measles outbreak at Disney World, then it is overwhelmingly likely that the affected children were not vaccinated themselves.

not true. Vaccinations are not 100%.

13-04-2015 12:41PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

and what do you do when the parents refuse?

The same thing you do to anyone who mistreats their children, allow the state to intervene and do the job itself, which in this case means vaccinating against the parents' consent.

Egginacup · 13-04-2015 12:41PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The people who are mostly against vaccines for their children are well-educated, affluent liberals. They simply don't trust medicine any more, instead justifying their actions by saying it's their right and their personal choice and they're refusing to vaccinate their children because of the idea of "putting harmful chemicals" in their children's bodies.

Homeschooling is fast becoming another liberal idea because they don't trust the education system, the same education system that gave them their education - too dangerous for their special little snowflakes.

It's no secret that the level and standard of education in many countries is deteriorating on a fairly dramatic downward trajectory. Today's schools, particularly in the US, are teaching by rote. Kids are not taught critical thinking skills and many schools even shove that Creationism crap down their throats. It's no wonder that home-schooling is so prevalent there.

Here's an 8th Grade (that's ages 13, maybe 14) test from 1912:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/08/13/1230894/-Most-Adults-Would-Likely-Fail-This-1912-8th-Grade-Test-Try-It-VIDEO#

Today many college students would struggle with this test. I'd bet an embarrasing number would fail the fucking thing.

You don't need to be a tree-hugging liberal to see that if that test was the norm 100 years ago, yet today 1 in 3 high school graduates are functionally illiterate, then the education system is indeed pretty damn fucked.

kunst nugget · 13-04-2015 12:41PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

If there was a measles outbreak at Disney World, then it is overwhelmingly likely that the affected children were not vaccinated themselves.

Some of the people infected had been vaccinated. This article helps explain the problem.

http://www.wired.com/2015/01/vaccinated-people-get-measles-disneyland-blame-unvaccinated/

13-04-2015 12:42PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

not true. Vaccinations are not 100%.

It's about 98%. Overwhelmingly likely, I said. Did you read it?

kunst nugget wrote: »

Some of the people infected had been vaccinated. [/URL]

Right, so as I said "overwhelmingly likely that the affected children were not vaccinated". 48 out of 52 of them had not been vaccinated or were not properly up to date. That's a little lower than you might statistically expect (porkies, perhaps?) , but it's still overwhelmingly the case in the Disney-world example that victims of a measles outbreaks are the non-vaccinated themselves.

Hence the argument for compulsory vaccination, as opposed to ineffective measures which harm the children even further.

ScumLord · 13-04-2015 12:45PM

Vaccines are clearly a conspiracy so the aliens can put microchips in our brains and make us build stone monuments.

We'll soon see the Australians building pyramids, you mark my words the outback will be littered with them within a few years.

Autonomous Cowherd · 13-04-2015 12:54PM

Into the frying pan.....:rolleyes:

I am one of those retarded people who did not get their children vaccinated. There is a strong history of autism in my family and I choose to opt out. I also...to the delight no doubt of the obnoxious right-wingers who populate this thread.... home-schooled all my children.

Suck it up Bozos. Vaccination is being performed on your children when they are defenseless infants with substances that have not gone through sufficiently long-enough medical trials to be declared safe. Refer to swine flu and narcolepsy, for example.

If you feel vaccination is so bloody marvelous and infallible, your kids should technically be able to cope with the demon spawn of left wing libtards who might get a disease.

ohnonotgmail · 13-04-2015 12:57PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

It's about 98%. Overwhelmingly likely, I said. Did you read it?

Right, so as I said "overwhelmingly likely that the affected children were not vaccinated". 48 out of 52 of them had not been vaccinated or were not properly up to date. That's a little lower than you might statistically expect (porkies, perhaps?) , but it's still overwhelmingly the case in the Disney-world example that victims of a measles outbreaks are the non-vaccinated themselves.

Hence the argument for compulsory vaccination, as opposed to ineffective measures which harm the children even further.

we;re not disagreeing on vaccines being compulsory. But there has to be a negative consequence to not getting your child vaccinated. I'm not really sure how you can force parents otherwise. Unless you are suggesting they hold the parents down while they vaccinate the children?

Jimoslimos · 13-04-2015 12:57PM

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

Into the frying pan.....:rolleyes:

I am one of those retarded people who did not get their children vaccinated. There is a strong history of autism in my family and I choose to opt out. I also...to the delight no doubt of the obnoxious right-wingers who populate this thread.... home-schooled all my children.

Ugghhh....not this autism sh1t :rolleyes:

ohnonotgmail · 13-04-2015 12:59PM

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

Into the frying pan.....:rolleyes:

I am one of those retarded people who did not get their children vaccinated. There is a strong history of autism in my family and I choose to opt out. I also...to the delight no doubt of the obnoxious right-wingers who populate this thread.... home-schooled all my children.

Suck it up Bozos. Vaccination is being performed on your children when they are defenseless infants with substances that have not gone through sufficiently long-enough medical trials to be declared safe. Refer to swine flu and narcolepsy, for example.

If you feel vaccination is so bloody marvelous and infallible, your kids should technically be able to cope with the demon spawn of left wing libtards who might get a disease.

you do know there is absolutely no link between vaccinations and autism right? that the only study that suggested there was used fake data and was done by a doctor that has since been struck off for faking the study? You do know that, right?

13-04-2015 01:00PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

we're not disagreeing on vaccines being compulsory. But there has to be a negative consequence to not getting your child vaccinated. I'm not really sure how you can force parents otherwise.

The very same way medics give blood transfusions to children of Jehova's Witnesses, by doing it against the the JW parents' protestations, who have absolutely no right to withhold medical care and harm their children in that way.

ohnonotgmail · 13-04-2015 01:02PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

The very same way medics give blood transfusions to children of Jehova's Witnesses, by doing it against the the JW parents' protestations, who have absolutely no right to withhold medical care and harm their children in that way.

while i agree with the sentiment i'm not so sure on the practicalities of what you suggest.

Egginacup · 13-04-2015 01:07PM

kunst nugget wrote: »

There was a Measles outbreak in Disney World. By all means, be a fúcking idiot with your own kids but when other kids can be harmed by your idiocy then I agree with steps been taken to protect other kids as much as possible such as proof of vaccination when being enrolled in creche or school.

It could be countered that you are the one being an idiot with your kid who can't get a vaccine on medical grounds yet you are putting your little snowflake at risk by not locking them up indoors in a fucking oxygen tent.

Your kid has a condition so it's everyone else's responsibility to be your damn babysitter?

Get real!

Egginacup · 13-04-2015 01:13PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

none of those involve being in the same room with an infected child all day. Or instead of arguing the toss you could just do the sensible thing and vaccinate your kids.

Yeah, and I could just stick my kid on Ritalin because the quack down the street says he or she is hyper.

ALL KIDS ARE HYPER!!

LoonyLovegood · 13-04-2015 01:15PM

I'm delighted with this. Vaccinations are an extremely necessary part of healthcare, without them we'd have huge infant mortality rates. I've had all of mine, so have all my siblings, and we're all healthy as a horse.

Australia to stop welfare payments for parents who dont vacinnate their kids

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